The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

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The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

Postby ganglere » 5 years 5 months ago (Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:22 am)

Good day ladies and gentlemen!

There has been pointed out several times, about the similarities between the seventeen century witch trials and the Nuremberg process. I find that this comparison is in at least part, unjust.

Naturally, there are similarities; there were for instance several dogma not to be questioned, as far as the Inquisition was concerned, the existence of the Devil and witchcraft, in the Nuremberg trials the Holocaust and German war guilt.

However, hereafter the similarities ends, especially concerning the second phase of the Navarre witch trials. One question, where was the voice of reason in Nuremberg?

(source: mainly Wikipedia, my own inclusions made for the sake of clarity)

“Alonso de Salazar Frías was one of the leading members of the Spanish Inquisition in the Navarre region of that time. He had been a member in the first phase of the Navarre witch trials,(also known as the Basque witch trials) and already at this stage had voiced doubts about the whole undertaking.

In March 1611, the Inquisitor General (Alfonso Manrique) instructed Salazar to make a new visitation, this time alone, unaccompanied by the other inquisitors.

He was not to use pressure to force confessions, nor to question witches about supposed accomplices, but he was to interrogate witches who allegedly attended the same gathering to see if their statements tallied.

Salazar's visitation began in May 1611 and lasted almost eight months.

He was struck by the defendants’ uncertainty and inconsistency, and their frequent retraction of statements they had previously made about others. He rejected out of hand the statements of 1384 children, aged between six and fourteen years, which were full of defects.

He concentrated upon obtaining material proofs of the existence of the supposed witch sect.

When the accused were taken to the supposed place of the gathering and interrogated in detail about where the devil sat, they contradicted each other and their own earlier statements.

Supposed ointments and powders proved to be fake materials, which the accused admitted contained harmless substances that they had cooked up in order to satisfy their persecutors and to substantiate confessions.

Children who said they had been to gatherings in the village of Santesteban had lied, since Salazar's secretaries had been to the place on the night in question and had seen no one. In fact, the supposed witches had never been seen by anyone.

Salazar concluded that the devil deludes those who think they have been to his gathering, with the intention of creating uproar and unjustly incriminating the innocent.

The supposed witch sect was a product of the imagination. In a report to the Inquisitor General, Salazar wrote:

"I have not found one single proof nor even the slightest indication from which to infer that one act of witchcraft has actually taken place…the testimony of accomplices alone without further support from external facts substantiated by persons who are not witches is insufficient to warrant even one arrest."

In a subsequent report to the Supreme Council in 1613, Salazar severely criticized the procedure of the tribunal during the witchcraft outbreak, not even disclaiming his own responsibility.

The inquisitors had failed to keep proper records, writing only the resolution of each point, and thus suppressing inconsistencies; they had concealed the fact that the accused were permitted to retract confessions; those retractions which had occurred were sometimes omitted from the records, in the hope they would be withdrawn.

The inquisitors had also tacitly accepted violence used against the accused by local authorities.

The real question, Salazar said, was whether one should believe witchcraft occurred simply because of what accused witches claim. In his view, they were not to be believed, since they alleged impossible things such as flying through the air, attendance at the witches’ gathering at the same time that they were in bed, and self-transformation into different shapes.

"These claims go beyond all human reason and many even pass the limits permitted the devil", he concluded.

If the devil was involved, how could he allow his machinations to be exposed so easily by children of eight years and under?

In 1614, the Supreme Council issued instructions that adopted almost all of Salazar's suggestions, and even reproduced some of his clauses word for word.

This included the emphasis on establishing whether witches’ gatherings had taken place; the requirement that witches’ entire statements be recorded with all the contradictions and consideration of motives, and if the accused had been exposed to violence or coercion;

insistence on proof from outside witnesses and acceptance of revocation of statements; the stipulation that no person should be sentenced solely on the basis of witches’ denunciations; and insistence that public discussion of witchcraft should be forbidden.

After Salazar executed these instructions in Logroño, he was able to report to the Supreme Council in 1617 that a state of peace now existed in Navarre; the imposition of silence on the witch question had combated the craze.”

Although the motives where somewhat different, I find the logical reasoning concerning witness statements from this seventeen century priest a refreshing contrast to what went down at Nuremberg!

Humbly yours,

Ganglere

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Re: The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

Postby Dresden » 5 years 5 months ago (Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:23 am)

ganglere said:

"Although the motives where somewhat different, I find the logical reasoning concerning witness statements from this seventeen century priest a refreshing contrast to what went down at Nuremberg!"

Thank you for this thread, ganglere; I hope others will add their thoughts to this subject.

I agree with you that ".....the logical reasoning concerning witness statements from this seventeen century priest is a refreshing contrast to what went down at Nuremberg!"; but not just Nuremberg.....far beyond Nuremberg to this very day, where 90 and 100 year-old Germans are wheeled out of rest homes and put on trial with vengeful, greedy, insane, professional liars as "witnesses" against them.

Trials against Revisionists and Thought criminals might as well be held in insane asylums, where the patients act as witnesses, prosecutors, and judges.

We don't only live in the Dark Age; this age we have been living in since 1945 can be more appropriately called "The Age of Insanity"

If and when the Age of Sanity dawns, history students will sit at their desks reading about the Age of the Holohoax with their mouths agape, unable to believe what they are reading, while the teacher sits at his desk grinning from ear to ear, because he's "been there" already.

Robert Faurisson dreams of the Age of Sanity:

Image

http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/200 ... rsion.html

I HAVE A DREAM


To each his own dreams!

Amongst mine is this: there will come a day when, in a vast gallery of photographs, a revisionist freely displays, one by one, the dismal mugs of the thousand or so people, men and women, who since the 1940s have made a mark for themselves in upholding the lies of “the Holocaust” and the “gas chambers”.

In the main room will hang, in pride of place, Elie Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal, Otto Heinrich Frank (Anne Frank’s father) and Simone Veil, as well as an array of heads of State (in particular, all the successive presidents of the United States), not forgetting the top-flight intellectuals like Jean-Paul Sartre or prestigious historians like Fernand Braudel. The photos of members of the lawyer tribe, such as Robert Badinter, and of gossip hacks, like Madeleine Jacob and Edwy Plenel, will be relegated to an annex for refuse storage.

The photos will all be connected to computers on which visitors can read, see and hear what those figures and thousands of other liars or smooth-talk peddlers have accumulated in the way of “Holocaust” lies, inventions, dishonesty, fraud, slander and insults along with calls for hatred, violence, censorship and repression against the revisionists.

But I shall have quite a few other museographic ideas to suggest, which will make the place a living, active and even, as they say, “interactive” gallery.

The jackals and vultures who, still today, are running or flying to the aid of the Great Lie are hereby warned that a place awaits them in that gallery. If ever some day, on a change of wind, they should feel a sudden urge to be forgotten, to give us the slip or plead that their “errors” were committed “in good faith”, or even attempt somehow to cover their tracks, the photographic exhibition will be there to refresh their memory and remind them of their wickedness. There will be no Great Atonement for the apostles or devotees of the Great Lie.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

Postby Mulegino1 » 5 years 5 months ago (Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:56 am)

This is an excellent and very important thread.

I would add that the main difference between the ecclesiastical tribunals referenced above and the IMT at Nuremberg was that the former, however flawed, were at least charged with arriving at a judgement based upon a fair and impartial examination of the evidence, and were bound to established legal procedures of canon law, while the latter was, in the words of Mr. Justice Jackson himself, "...a continuation of the war against Germany", and was not bound by any legal precedents.

In other words, the verdict of the one followed the evidence; that of the other was already predetermined.

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Re: The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

Postby ganglere » 5 years 5 months ago (Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:05 pm)

Hi!
Thank you Steve F and Mulegino 1 for your kind responses.

I also hope that this piece works as a mirror to our own age, to see both the differences and the similarities of these legal proceedings, despite the over 300 years that separate them.

All the Best!

Humbly yours,

Ganglere

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Re: The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

Postby Dresden » 5 years 5 months ago (Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:02 pm)

Here is an appropriate article for this thread; it identifies the "Thieves of Virtue", and those who place a moral burden on the lying "eyewitnesses" from Nuremberg to the present.

Who is it that hates the "eyewitnesses"?.....is it the ones who call them liars and prove them to be liars by logic, reason, and science; or is it the ones who encourage them to lie, and reward them for lying, thereby robbing them of their virtue?

Let Bradley Smith answer those questions for us.

Here is Chapter Eighteen of "Break His Bones":

http://codohfounder.com/books/chapter-eighteen/

Break His Bones: The Private Life of A Holocaust Revisionist

Chapter Eighteen


One night in late December I dream that I’ve been gassed at Auschwitz. In the dream, as I become aware of myself inside the gas chamber, the gassing itself is already over. I see myself sitting naked in the center of the floor; the room around me choked with naked cadavers heaped to the ceiling. The dead are filthy with feces, urine, vomit and menstrual blood. The scene is faintly illuminated in an ugly green light.

I’m not dead and I’m not suffering. Before I have time to evaluate my situation two large doors at the rear of the chamber are thrown open and there, revealed against a somber gray sky, is the gang of work-Jews, the sondercommandos as they are called in the literature. They are ready to begin their filthy labor of dragging out the dead, searching the mouths and rectums and even the vaginas of their murdered families and friends for diamonds and gold. Soon they will be using iron tools to pry open the mouths of their slaughtered children to search for contraband. It is these same work-Jews who will drag the violated cadavers to the crematory ovens. Then, as this sordid story has it, they will grind the very bones of their wives and children until their gravel can be disposed of in the Vistula. They will do this contemptible work to gain another week, another day, another hour of life for themselves.

There are about a dozen workers in the sondercommando. They’re on the short side, stocky in build, dressed in shabby clothes and billed caps. They looked like men you have seen in photographs of Jewish immigrants in the streets of the Lower East Side in New York City after the turn of the century. The workers appear to be posing there in the doorway, turning this way and that as if modeling themselves for me. They give off an air of self-satisfaction, of self-importance even. Some are smoking cigarettes and I notice that they are all barehanded. None is wearing a gas mask.When I wake from the dream I feel stunned. I can still see the individual faces of the work gang as they pose before the open gas chamber doors. They have the faces of ordinary working class Jews. In my mind’s eye I can still see the piles of corpses heaped up in their own filth. I think about what it is the work-Jews are going to do next, according to the story. I don’t just think about it. I see it. And it’s at this moment of seeing when I know, once again, I am going to do something about the Holocaust story.

I’m lying on my pad on the floor in the front room of Mother’s apartment. The first light of day is edging the drawn window blinds. I go on seeing the faces of the work Jews posing in the open gas chamber doorway. I know in my heart, without reservation, that those men would not have done what it is claimed they did. I’ve worked and lived among such men and their children for twenty-five years. They would not have done it.

Once maybe. Twice. A handful of them. But not all of them. Not day after day, week after week, month after month. They would not have done it. The gas chamber story is a lie. For half a century I have observed historians all over the world work to help legitimate the injustice, repression and lies of the orthodoxies for which they toil. At the same time I have seen artists from every discipline protest all that and cry out for liberty, truth and generosity. How could it have come about that I would chose to join with the historians all those years in a silent pact to repeat and even to exploit the lies and platitudes used to institutionalize as truth the alleged genocide of the Jews? Human-skin lamp shades, hand soap made from cooked Jews, Jewish babies thrown alive into raging furnaces, millions of people exterminated like animals and all of it proven by State decree, State courts seething with corruption and the usual army of bought bureaucrats and corrupt intellectuals. I’d bought it all, and as an artist I’d used it all.

No more. Four months earlier, when I had read the Robert Faurisson’s article about the “problem” of the gas chambers at Auschwitz, I had felt in my bones that something was badly wrong. Faurisson claimed that the gas chamber stories and the genocide of the Jews are one and the same historic lie. I had felt an immediate and deep anxiety that he might be right. The news didn’t make me happy, it made me fearful. It made my hands sweat.

Faurisson’s paper turned on a statement made by Rudolf Hoess, the SS colonel who claimed to have dreamed up the Auschwitz gas chambers, overseen their construction and murdered millions of victims in them, mostly Jews. In his confession Hoess wrote that after the gassings took place the work-Jews would enter the gas chambers “immediately” to drag out the dead. They would do this while “eating and smoking.” If they were eating and smoking, Faurisson wrote, it was unlikely they were wearing gas masks. But if they were going to enter the gas chamber immediately after a mass gassing Faurisson believed they would have had to use gas masks with special filters or be “gassed” themselves. This alone suggested to Faurisson that Hoess didn’t know diddly about mass gassings with Zyklon B, his poison gas of choice, and that his famous gas-chamber confession was the invention of a tortured mind. We hadn’t yet learned that Hoess, after his capture by British military intelligence, had in fact been tortured to obtain his confession.

I remember how thought wouldn’t let go of Faurisson’s thesis. It was doing a wild dance inside my skull. Thought wouldn’t go along with it either. It wouldn’t make a decision. It was like having an insane bee in my bonnet. Endless movement but no destination. Then thought did what it sometimes does with me. One night while I was asleep, thought went underground as it were. Thought treated me the way it treats children and other primitives, putting its argument into pictures so that I would see clearly what I had been unable to assure myself rationally. The pictures convinced me that it was all right, that it was good to doubt what I had begun to doubt.

In that stupefying first moment of recognition, I knew in my heart that the faces in the dream would not do what the Nazi commandant of Auschwitz claimed they had done. They would not eat their sandwiches and smoke their cigarettes with hands slimy with the blood and shit of their murdered families and neighbors. They would not jam their filthy fingers into the vaginas and rectums of their dead little girls to search for jewels and coins for their German bosses while enjoying a fag and a snack.

The story was a lie. It was a lie even if “eyewitnesses” themselves repeated it. It was a lie. My heart told me that it absolutely had to be a lie. The dream was a powerful aesthetic experience. It was the quality of the pictures that moved me to finally go to the library that week, the last afternoon in December 1979, and confirm some of Faurisson’s claims.

Argument alone had left me uneasy. There’s no end to argument. A new thought, new information is always turning argument back on itself. There’s no end to it. At the same time, you have to make decisions. Little leaps of faith. Faurisson’s argument had stirred things up for me but it was the direct experience of the dream that forced me to admit that I at least half-suspected it was possible that he was right and that Hoess had lied about himself, the Jews and the SS too. The dream went beyond doubting, beyond a movement of the intellect. It permeated the whole body. There was completeness to it that thought can’t produce. It was a holistic experience. Thought and its tools of doubt and fear were overwhelmed. Still, if it wasn’t thought that caused me to see through the gas chamber hoax, what was it? It would seem that intellection is only one of several means of expression in thought’s kit bag.

So I became a Holocaust revisionist because of a dream. Without the dream, who knows? I might still be evading my responsibilities as an artist and as a man. I didn’t tell anybody about the dream, and after awhile I half-forgot about it. There are thousands of books and countless articles written by respected academics and survivors demonstrating that both Jews and Germans did what they are accused of doing in the camps. I suppose I wasn’t really very eager to challenge the history of the 20th century on the grounds that I had seen through it in a dream.

Some artists pride themselves on their uniqueness. I rest secure in my ordinariness, my vulgarity and ignorance, my insensitivity to the social standards of the day. I excuse my careless intellectual life with Whitman’s observation that while his words may mean nothing, the drift of them means everything. Where are the human-skin lampshades? You don’t have to be a historian to ask that question. You can ask it if you are only an artist. Where are the human skin riding breeches, the boots, the saddles, gloves and pornographic books made from human skin that are reported by “survivors” in documents signed, sealed and delivered to the Nuremberg court? Where are they?

We don’t have to be geniuses to ask these questions. We don’t have to be historians-or artists. We only have to be willing. Not asking the questions has been of small consequence to our historians, who routinely avoid doing such work as part of their perceived obligation to those who pay and oversee them. For we artists, however, our collaboration with the State in the promotion of the gas-chamber lie has been a catastrophe. It has coarsened our sensibilities and vulgarized our art. We have made ourselves invulnerable before those who played the role of our enemies in the past. We have encouraged neurosis and other sicknesses of character in those we have chosen to sympathize with, no matter what.

With the Holocaust story as with no other we have closed off our artist-minds and our artist-hearts to the accused. Even in law, that clumsy attempt to formalize the ideals of the good and the just in everyday life, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. Where are the human skin lampshades? Where is the soap made of Jewish fat? Where is the documentation that proves the soap? Where is there a single scientific or scholarly paper that demonstrates that the pesticide Zyklon B did what is claimed for it in the manner that’s claimed for it? Who do we make our art for if it does not embrace the accused, the vanquished and the despised?

More subtly, more insidiously perhaps for the artist, we have closed our selves off from the accusers as well as the accused. Denying “survivors” the benefit of our rationality and the delicateness of our sensibilities, we have denied them our full humanity and the burden of it.

We respond to survivors, to the “eyewitnesses” with- Yes! Yes! We believe you. Absolutely! Every word of it! Not one of you has ever exaggerated an important story, merely imagined an atrocity! Not one among you has ever lied or ever would! Not one of you has ever revenged yourself on a stranger for what was done to you by another or allegedly done to others! You are a survivor, perfect in the truth. In your virtue, you are like no other!

Can Jewish cadavers really spurt geysers of blood from their graves for months after they are buried? Of course they can! At Buchenwald did German SS really throw a Jew into a cage every morning where a bear would eat him and his bones would be picked clean by an eagle? Yes! Yes! At Auschwitz did Jewish fathers really take their sons by the hand and leap into flaming ditches to be burned alive? Did the work-Jews, to save their own miserable lives for another day, really attend to the cremation fires by basting their families and neighbors with ladles of Jewish fat? Yes, of course they did! Of course!

For half a century we have said Yes! to such stories and a thousand like them. For half a century we have camouflaged our baseness as artists in expressions of empathy for the tellers of these unspeakable lies. We know-it’s our business to know-that every misrepresentation of human life made by a so-called survivor, as by anyone else, becomes a moral burden on the falsifier himself.

With our mindless acceptance of false accusation against Germans and our heartless sympathy for those Jews who repeat them, we have made of ourselves the thieves of their virtue. There must be a very special place in Artist Hell for a generation of men and women who have done what we have done.

Who can argue that artists of every discipline do not promote the orthodox Holocaust story? Our television, our cinema, our stages are run over with fake Holocaust drama. Our novels and memoirs are full of it. Our universities and even our high schools employ the arts to urge Holocaustomania onto our children. Our poets poeticize over the Holocaust, our painters paint it, our sculptors sculpt it, while great philanthropist-thieves chat up the funding of a Holocaust ballet so that our dance artists can at last express themselves about the Holocaust.

Our scholars co-mingle with our artists to thrive on the holocaust story, using it to illustrate their speculations and support their politics. The holocaust is universally perceived among our intellectual elites to be the most morally significant story of the 20th century. Every citizen is expected to know the outline of the story and have a clear understanding of who the villains and particularly who the heroes are-the victorious allied governments. No less can be expected of the artist, and in the event we have dedicated ourselves to the project with all our fervor. Where is there a single artist in this great nation of 250 millions who has not gone along with whatever charge of filthy criminality and moral debasement has appeared in the press about Germans and Jews alike? Where is there a single artist among us who has not substituted the theories of the intellectuals for his own direct experience when making art about the Holocaust? Where has one artist among us made one artistic statement about the alleged genocide of the Jews that does not stand in conformity with the State and the State factotums responsible for overseeing State policy on this issue?

One of the things I do as a writer is to use my art to stand witness to the intellectual and moral corruption of the society in which I live. I do no more or less than artists of every discipline have always done. It’s what is expected of us, and it’s especially what we expect of ourselves. But am I not being insensitive to the feelings of Jews, I am asked? I respond that Jewish feelings are no particular concern for me. I’m an artist. My responsibility is to human feeling, human sensibilities. The German bleeds from the thrust of a lie just as the Jew does.

The Great Debate on the Holocaust that’s beginning to rumble around through the countryside is being organized and implemented by citizens from every walk of life, excepting academics, media intellectuals and artists. Long-haul truck drivers, computer programmers, sci-fi enthusiasts, engineers, pilots, plumbers, house framers and housewives, small time journalists, country preachers, retired machinery salesmen, bankers- the list is more varied than our artists have any idea of. Artists in this country haven’t a hint yet that with respect to the holocaust story they have chosen to stand with the intellectuals against the people. Artists pretend they’ve been thinking about all this, content to believe that the professors have given us the real skinny on the holocaust. The State and those who serve it to serve it ourselves have intimidated us, and to make our art from images created by others.

What is so powerful in being an artist is that you don’t have to wait. Unlike the historian, it isn’t necessary for you to undo what has gone before. You don’t have to set old records straight. You don’t have to disprove yesterday’s truths in order to tell your own truth today. In the passion of the moment the artist tells the truth of the moment. Our history and our museums become irrelevant in that instant of passionate impulse. Afterward, history and the museums will take care of themselves, moving slowly in the direction of least resistance.

Was I wrong yesterday? Did I do something I regret? It’s all right! In this very moment I’ll right myself. In this moment I will make art that will uplift and liberate us all. I’ll make it for the accused and the accursed, for the shamed and for the guilty too and for those who are wrong about everything and all the rest. None of us is wrong about everything. I’ll make something even the rich, successful and influential can use. I’ll make art that’s good for the bigots. I identify with bigots of every persuasion for my art has taught me that when your mind is closed to some you are unable to open your heart to all and you are lost to the joy an open heart brings and to the quiet movement of ecstasy that comes with the full experience of brotherhood.

Am I going to be wrong about something on this very day? Am I going to do something stupid or vulgar, something I’ll regret? You can almost bet your ass on it. But I’m an artist. I don’t have the right to remain silent about what I’ve seen. So stand aside. Tell the professorial class and the holocaust hate industry to stand aside too. I’m making art. Their reputations are doomed. I’m making art for the people, without qualification.

End


Thank you, Bradley Smith!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 5 months ago (Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:16 am)

A brilliant piece of writing by Bradley.

He's taken up the same theme again recently, arguing that ordinary Jews would not have done this. The corollary which seems screamingly obvious to me, but apparently not to the promoters of the story or to the general public, is If we are to believe they did it, why are they not in the dock instead of witnessing against Demjanjuk and the rest of the "perpetrators"?

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Re: The sanity of the Inquisition v Nuremberg

Postby Hektor » 5 years 5 months ago (Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:07 am)

It's the trials against Revisionists that are more like the Inquisition.
But wait, during inquisition trials the accused were at least allowed to make their case and give proof.


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