A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaust"

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neugierig
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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby neugierig » 4 years 5 months ago (Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:06 pm)

Thanks, Kladderadatsch, but as you mentioned, it isn’t perfect. Still, it does give me something to work with.

Thanks again
Wilf

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby neugierig » 4 years 5 months ago (Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:08 pm)

Here are a few of the problems I have with Frau Haverbeck’s declaration (my comments in brackets, the minutes roughly, and there is probably more):

0:15 “…Where did the murder by gassing of six million (or at least, millions) of Jews take place?” (wrong, nobody claims that gassings were the only method of killing)
0:40 “…everyone knows that six million Jews were gassed, above all in Auschwitz.” (wrong, nobody claims that 6 million were gassed)
4:15 “And thirdly — and this really is new for all of us, though it was published back in 2000 — the book "Garrison and Commandant Orders" [Standort- und Kommandanturbefehle] from the Institute for Contemporary History, a collection of material which had been stored away in Moscow ever since Auschwitz was overrun by the Russians, by the Red Army, and which now was made available to the Institute for Contemporary History.”

Here is what the IfZ has to say about those orders:

“Der Band dokumentiert die internen Anweisungen der SS-Lagerleitung an die Wachmannschaften von Auschwitz. Die seinerzeit als hektographierte Mitteilungen ausgegebenen Befehle blieben nur in wenigen Exemplaren erhalten -- verstreut in deutschen, polnischen und russischen Archiven -- und wurden von der Forschung bisher kaum beachtet. In ihrem Detailreichtum ein eindrucksvolles Zeugnis vom "Alltag" der SS am Schauplatz der Massenvernichtung, sind sie darüber hinaus eine bedeutende Quelle für die Geschichtsschreibung des Holocaust.“
(roughly: This volume documents the internal instructions issued by the camp administration to the guards. Only a few of the hectographic orders were prevented – scattered throughout German, Polish and Russian archives – and mostly ignored by historians. These very detailed orders provide an impressive view of the daily routine of the place of SS mass murder and are an important source for the history of the Holocaust)
http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/publikatione ... 1940-1945/

As we can see here, these orders are dismissed as ‘daily routine’, and have nothing to do with the mass murder that (allegedly) took place. The IfZ would never publish anything coming even close to doubting “The Holocaust”.

As mentioned, my hat goes off to Frau Haverbeck but I feel she would have been well advised to have someone with good subject knowledge proof-read what she was about to say.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby borjastick » 4 years 5 months ago (Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:53 am)

Yes but no but...

Ask your average Joe from the age of 15-30 and they will trot out the jewish destruction of six million by gas chambers. It is only those who have read a little or a lot who understand the other claims and perhaps the holes in the story.
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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Dresden » 4 years 5 months ago (Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:42 am)

Is there any knowledgeable Revisionist here who can help me answer Richard Edmonds?

Here is Richard Edmonds' "answer" to my comment on the YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqMfRkA ... 24572#t=11

To Sockpuppet2012:

"Ursula Haverbeck is absolutely correct to focus the attention on Auschwitz. It was the Germans' war-time enemies who made the claim that Auschwitz was where the alleged Holocaust took place. The troops of the Red Army captured the camp in January 1945, and immediately the Soviet Union announced to the whole world that millions of Jews had been murdered there. The British managed to capture the former Commandant of the camp, Rudolf Hoess, and tortured him almost to death, in order to obtain his "confession" that millions of Jews had been murdered at Auschwitz.

The whole thing is a pack of lies; starting off with the official plaque claiming four million were victims there"


===========================

My reply:

To Richard Edmonds:

"Thank you for your reply, Mr. Edmonds!

Nowhere in my comment did I suggest that she should not focus on Auschwitz.

@ 2::38 Ursula Haverbeck says:

"According to official statements, Auschwitz is no longer the location of the most wicked crime in the history of mankind - the murder of six million Jews"

This is both a false statement and a Strawman.

It is false because there are no official statements stating that "Auschwitz is no longer the location of.....the murder of six million Jews"

It is a Strawman because it was never claimed that six million Jews were murdered at Auschwitz.

@ 2:50 Ursula asks:

".....where did this crime take place? What was the scene of the Germans' crime?"

The answer to Her question is that there was no single scene of the crime; according to the Hoaxers "it" took place at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzek, and Chelmno "'death camps", and about two million killed by the Einsatzgruppen.

Ursula Haverbeck needs help from knowledgeable Revisionists to sharpen Her message"


===================================

Richard Edmonds' reply:

To Sockpuppet2012:

"You are mistaken, there was an official statement. With the full knowledge and support of the German government, the semi-official German government publication, Osteuropa, published in its May 2002 edition, an article written by a journalist from the main-stream German news-magazine, Der Spiegel, that "new research into the archives" (quote from Osteuropa) revealed that the claim that millions had been murdered at Auschwitz was false, and was in fact "Kriegspropaganda", that is, the Allies' war-time propaganda"

======================================

I want to know if "Osteuropa" is a "semi-official German government publication" as Edmonds says, and I would like to know if it mentions six million killed at Auschwitz, or anything else Edmonds claims.

Thank you, Kladderadatsch.....Hermod.....BlackRabbit.....whoever! :D
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 5 months ago (Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:03 pm)

Steve F wrote:Is there any knowledgeable Revisionist here who can help me answer Richard Edmonds?


Lol, I think Richard may be feeling a little stung at the remark in your first YT comment about people around Ursula purposely feeding her false information . . .

Anyway, as I said in my long post above, I think Frau Haverbeck probably knows as much as she needs to know on the subject, including the fact that no serious source has ever claimed that "six million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz." But even if most people realize, somewhere in the back of their minds, that there's more to the (alleged) story than that, it's still a common way of thinking about the subject, a kind of mental shorthand: "Oh yeah, Auschwitz. That's where the Nazis murdered all the Jews." And sometimes, to battle a popular misconception, it makes sense to speak (provisionally) in the language of that popular misconception. Once you have people's attention you can always go into the complexities later (for those who want them). I think that's what Frau Haverbeck is probably thinking here, and as a strategy, it's probably no worse than any other.

And remember, there's no point worrying if she has her story straight for when the police come knocking either: it's illegal to even present our evidence in court :lol: . So it doesn't matter what her reasons are, at least as far as the law is concerned.

As for OSTEUROPA, I don't know about it being a semi-official government publication, but the organization (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_ ... uropakunde) that puts it out may well receive public funding, and that may be what Richard is thinking of. The article itself of course is Fritjof Meyer's "The Number of Victims," which Frau Haverbeck indeed refers to in the December video and which you can read in translation here: http://www.vho.org/GB/c/Meyer.html. While not in itself an official statement, Frau Haverbeck is surely correct that the fact that Meyer has never been charged under StGB 130 for publishing it amounts to a kind of tacit acknowledgment by the BRD government of its essential correctness. (Or if that's not so then they have some splainin' to do, lol.) In the meantime, it stands as a very useful "mainstream" admission of the underlying truth of revisionist claims. It doesn't go far enough, of course, but it's a start, and crucially, it's from a highly respected source in German terms. I'm sure that's why Frau Haverbeck refers to it, in preference to more up-to-date revisionist work like Mattogno and so on. Fritjof Meyer is a name she can expect her primary audience in Germany to recognize.

So I wouldn't worry too much about "correcting" Frau Haverbeck's message. She's getting the word out in her own way.
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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Dresden » 4 years 5 months ago (Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:29 pm)

Kladderadatsch said:

"I think Richard may be feeling a little stung at the remark in your first YT comment about people around Ursula purposely feeding her false information . . ."

Yes, he should feel stung, since that's exactly who I had in mind when I made that remark.

"I think Frau Haverbeck probably knows as much as she needs to know on the subject, including the fact that no serious source has ever claimed that "six million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz."

I disagree; I can't see why she would purposely make such a statement, knowing it was false.
I still think she is being influenced in what to say in her speeches.
I would never make such a false statement, knowing it was false.....would you?

"But even if most people realize, somewhere in the back of their minds, that there's more to the (alleged) story than that, it's still a common way of thinking about the subject, a kind of mental shorthand: "Oh yeah, Auschwitz. That's where the Nazis murdered all the Jews."

But that only applies to people who are ignorant of the official story; why would someone who knows better perpetuate the false conceptions?

Thank you for your help! :D
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 5 months ago (Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:10 pm)

I was going to pm this neugierig, but I figure I'll post the links here in case anyone else is interested.

I found the original texts for Frau Haverbeck's "The Greatest Problem" speech on her web site. I wish I'd known about them back in December when I translated the video; it would have saved me a lot of trouble. Better late than never I suppose.

I haven't compared text and video word for word, but with perhaps a minor change here and there, these two links clearly are the "Wortlaut" for her December speech.

Part 1, Liebe Landsleute . . .

http://ursula-haverbeck.info/liebe-land ... tgefunden/

Part 2, Eine notwendige abermalige Begriffsbestimmung . . .

http://ursula-haverbeck.info/eine-notwe ... slager-kz/
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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby neugierig » 4 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:35 pm)

Thanks for that, Kladderadatsch, but I’ll drop this, following a few short remarks.

It appears that some here view what I am doing as an intent to somehow belittle Frau Haverbeck’s efforts, that is just plain wrong. It is instead meant to be constructive criticism, for as Steve F has pointed out as well, she leaves herself wide open but saying what she did.

One more example: Frau Haverbeck points to the Instructions issued by the camp administration (Standortbefehle) as evidence that Auschwitz was not an extermination camp but a work camp. Sorry, but as mentioned, the IfZ looks at them as a side issue. The Industry admits that Auschwitz was a work camp, hard to ignore Monowitz, but this was only part of its function. Jews were sorted out at the Ramp, a ‘selektion’ took place, those able to work were held back the others gassed, so the story goes. Therefore one does not cancel out the other, the instructions fit right into the tale.

As for Fritjof Meyer, that is indeed something to talk about, but he has been all but buried. Do we have anything solid re. his sources? I found an article by the Die Welt Nestbeschmutzer Sven Felix Kellerhoff who claims that his case is weak at best. Again, do we have more?
http://www.welt.de/print-welt/article40 ... ugner.html

And this is it, folks, my unqualified contribution. I wish I knew what to do, contact Frau Haverbeck? She is a Grand Lady and I don’t want to step on her toes.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Hektor » 4 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:49 pm)

neugierig wrote:..
As for Fritjof Meyer, that is indeed something to talk about, but he has been all but buried. Do we have anything solid re. his sources? I found an article by the Die Welt Nestbeschmutzer Sven Felix Kellerhoff who claims that his case is weak at best. Again, do we have more?
http://www.welt.de/print-welt/article40 ... ugner.html

And this is it, folks, my unqualified contribution. I wish I knew what to do, contact Frau Haverbeck? She is a Grand Lady and I don’t want to step on her toes.
....

Kellerhof makes more of a tirade against Holocaust Revisionists, then a comment on Fritjof Meyer's work. In that he tells us more about himself and his ilk then about both former. They stick to their guns no matter what. "Revisionism lite" could lead to the full-blown version and that can not be allowed.

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby neugierig » 4 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:30 pm)

True, Hektor, but what Kellerhoff writes is the accepted version, to shake it, we need solid evidence. We have no way of proving that Krema capacity was lower, common sense has it but the other side has the Bischoff letter. Mattogno offered an ‘alternate’ interpretation, useful but nothing definite http://www.vho.org/VffG/2000/1/1_00.html

And yes, Kellerhoff is one of the worst Nestbeschmutzers alive, I read him regularly. Interestingly, he does raise the ire of some Die Welt readers, they are letting him know that he is a one-sided embarrassment. He responds by repeating the garbage he believes in. These letters, critical of his narrative, are a ray of hope however.

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Wilf

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Hannover » 4 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:27 pm)

It all boils down to the lack of human remains; verifiable excavations where massive numbers of Jews can be seen, not alleged. It's the simplest concept to remember. You can't have 6M Jews and whatever the equally stupid claim about gays & gypsies is these days. All the other claims are necessarily BS without real, verified, visible corpses.

"Two guys with shovels" is all the shysters would need to send us all packing.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Inquisitor » 4 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:36 pm)

neugierig wrote:
It appears that some here view what I am doing as an intent to somehow belittle Frau Haverbeck’s efforts, that is just plain wrong. It is instead meant to be constructive criticism, for as Steve F has pointed out as well, she leaves herself wide open but saying what she did.


I, for one, certainly don't see it that way. Your points have all been valid and reasonable, even if everyone doesn't completely agree upon how important they are.

Frau Haverbeck is a brave, intelligent, and inspiring woman, and of course we all wish to support her in her efforts. At the same time, we also know well that the enemies of truth just love to pick apart the words and claims of "holocaust" heretics, and thus, most of us are perhaps hyper-sensitive to details and totally factual assertions. Even an innocent error will naturally be pounced upon by the deniers of reality, in order to defame, diminish and otherwise disregard the message as well as the messenger.

I too hope someone is able to give her some general guidance on the finer points of the sacred "holocaust," in a purely constructive and helpful fashion. This issue is too important and the opportunity too rich, to simply shrug off problems with details and such as being unimportant or the like. That's just my opinion, of course.


-----

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby neugierig » 4 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:54 pm)

Yes of course, Hannover, but Kellerhoff has an answer for this as well. On Jan.24th of this year, an article appeared in Die Welt, titled: “Wie die SS ihren Massenmord vertuschen wollte”(How the SS tried to cover-up the mass murder). According to this, Blobel dug up and made to disappear 1.5 million Jewish corpses. Amazing, wouldn’t you agree? And that is only part of his story.
http://www.welt.de/geschichte/zweiter-w ... ollte.html
The problem is, this Kellerhoff is allowed to spout those lies whereas Revisionists are jailed. Still, to disprove what he writes we need facts, perhaps Revisionists need to buy some shovels and have at it?

Thanks for this, Inquisitor and I also hope someone steps up. I don’t know the Lady, spoke to her just once briefly. But as you point out, this is important and could be a breakthrough, if handled with care. Debating the other side I am also aware of how they try and distort everything, we don’t need to hand them any freebies.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 2 months ago (Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:44 am)

This story seems to be getting publicity in Germany again, partly in connection with the Oscar Groening trial:

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Re: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaus

Postby Dresden » 4 years 2 months ago (Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:28 am)

EtienneSC said:

"This story seems to be getting publicity in Germany again, partly in connection with the Oscar Groening trial"

Can you tell us English speakers what you're talking about?
I'm interested in Ursula Haverbeck's fate.

Thank you!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith


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