Cremation procedure

[kk]

Since I' ve been long out of touch with this forum, I hope this is not a repost:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis

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kk:
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[Review]

Maybe we can discuss modern cremation in this thread ? As a comparison to the human effort and cost it would have taken in Third reich to cremate millions (whatever number the changing storyline says nowadays...) of jews.

The average cost of a cremation today seems to be around 1100 dollar/cremation \1. So, cremating 3 million people would cost 3300 million or 3,3 billion dollars. Ok, the actual cost of cremation is lower, but you get the point; it's expensive.

It takes 1-3 HOURS to cremate on body in modern facilities \2. So, cremating 3 million people would take, using the lower number and assuming 24/7 operation , 3 million hours or 125 000 days. That's some 340 years, if my calculations are correct.


\1 http://www.cremationresource.org/cremat ... ation.html
\2 http://www.cremationresource.org/cremat ... mated.html

[blake121666]

Maybe we can discuss modern cremation in this thread ? As a comparison to the human effort and cost it would have taken in Third reich to cremate millions (whatever number the changing storyline says nowadays...) of jews.

The average cost of a cremation today seems to be around 1100 dollar/cremation \1. So, cremating 3 million people would cost 3300 million or 3,3 billion dollars. Ok, the actual cost of cremation is lower, but you get the point; it's expensive.

It takes 1-3 HOURS to cremate on body in modern facilities \2. So, cremating 3 million people would take, using the lower number and assuming 24/7 operation , 3 million hours or 125 000 days. That's some 340 years, if my calculations are correct.


\1 http://www.cremationresource.org/cremat ... ation.html
\2 http://www.cremationresource.org/cremat ... mated.html

You can't assume a single cremation oven - or even any cremation ovens (per the AR stories). Here's Nizkor's reply to you:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/furnace-capacity-analysis.html

While their analyses is somewhat silly, it's not sillier than yours in its oversimplifying generality. I see the whole mass murder "factory" using crematory ovens as absurd on its face. Why no heavy duty blast furnace(s) to cremate essentially all at once? Why bother to use crematory ovens at all in this alleged procedure? Ridiculously unnecessarily labor and material intensive.

[borjastick]

While their analyses is somewhat silly, it's not sillier than yours in its oversimplifying generality. I see the whole mass murder "factory" using crematory ovens as absurd on its face. Why no heavy duty blast furnace(s) to cremate essentially all at once? Why bother to use crematory ovens at all in this alleged procedure? Ridiculously unnecessarily labor and material intensive.

The answer is simple. There was no plan or facility to murder and cremate millions of jews at all. The crematory facilities were built to cover the expected and small number of deaths that would have occurred under normal camp conditions where as a matter of course some would die. The Germans wanted to treat the dead decently and so a normal crematory ovens were chosen.

[Atigun]

The answer is simple. There was no plan or facility to murder and cremate millions of jews at all. The crematory facilities were built to cover the expected and small number of deaths that would have occurred under normal camp conditions where as a matter of course some would die. The Germans wanted to treat the dead decently and so a normal crematory ovens were chosen.

I am particularly fond of the cremation facilities allegedly constructed by the legendary Sergeant Floss. Hundreds of thousands of corpses cremated with nothing more than twigs or some brushwood for fuel. I especially like Rajchman's tale of how the fire from one of the giant grills was caught by the wind and set the blood of 250,000 Jews on fire. Yes, the blood burned "like fuel" for an entire night and the next day. I've always been curious why the Hindus of India haven't employed the Floss method of cremating cadavers and stopped the deforestation caused by cutting down trees for cremation purposes.

Can anyone explain to me why otherwise seemingly rational people believe such nonsense?

[blake121666]

BTW, I should probably relate that Nizkor link to the OP. The Nizkor link assumes 6.25 corpses per muffle per hour cremation rate. We know that to be impossible for a number of reasons:

1. It takes longer than an hour to cremate one average-sized corpse.
2. You can't fit multiple corpses into a muffle
3. Even if you could put multiple corpses into a muffle, it would not gain you much efficiency since it would actually take longer to cremate 2 stacked corpses than the time to cremate them individually.

So at the very least, we can take his final number, 1,018,350 and divide by 6.25 to get approximately 163,000 corpses maximum capacity. I don't recall off the top of my head what Revisionists claim: about 80,000 or so isn't it? And about 30 or 40 thousand being Jewish? At any rate though, the maximum cremation capacity using their logic was no greater than about 160,000.

And so the revised Nizkor figures agree with the OP.

[ginger]

to kk, and Review and others

I've been puzzling over how the Nazis could dispose of so many bodies and I was directed to an article by Carlos Mattogno http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html who wrote extensively about the problem. He rules out the idea of cremations taking place 24/7.

He estimates that the equipment would need to be re-bricked after 3000 cremation per muffle. The need to re-brick the equipment is a major constraint on how many cremations could take place. This was an argument made by Ivan Lagace at Ernst Zundel's trial, but Lagace estimated the need to re-brick the equipment after 1000 cremations (google Cremation vs Holocaust).

Mattogno used figures from Pressac - that 530,000 were exterminated within a certain period. If this happened many fire-bricks and man-hours would be needed to overhaul the equipment. All this would have generated an immense number of documents but there is no trace of paperwork between the Topf firm and the SS Construction Office to indicate that this mammoth task every took place.

Mattogno's calculations agree with a cremation toll of 162,000, the number he asserts was the number who died at Auschwitz naturally, or inadvertently.

[blake121666]

to kk, and Review and others

I've been puzzling over how the Nazis could dispose of so many bodies and I was directed to an article by Carlos Mattogno http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html who wrote extensively about the problem. He rules out the idea of cremations taking place 24/7.

He estimates that the equipment would need to be re-bricked after 3000 cremation per muffle. The need to re-brick the equipment is a major constraint on how many cremations could take place. This was an argument made by Ivan Lagace at Ernst Zundel's trial, but Lagace estimated the need to re-brick the equipment after 1000 cremations (google Cremation vs Holocaust).

Mattogno used figures from Pressac - that 530,000 were exterminated within a certain period. If this happened many fire-bricks and man-hours would be needed to overhaul the equipment. All this would have generated an immense number of documents but there is no trace of paperwork between the Topf firm and the SS Construction Office to indicate that this mammoth task every took place.

Mattogno's calculations agree with a cremation toll of 162,000, the number he asserts was the number who died at Auschwitz naturally, or inadvertently.

From your link, Mattogno calculates for a work day of 12 hours for each oven (180 corpses/day * 1145 days) + (96 corpses/day * 1222 days) = 323,312 maximum corpse cremation capacity (not including Krema I). And then shows that there wasn't enough fuel for this many. I'm going to look into this more thoroughly when I find time. This is more than I would have thought.

EDIT: Doh! I didn't actually read the whole thing ... just scanned through quickly. Mattogno is claiming (138,000 + 24,000) = 162,000 maximum (including Krema I) after considering downtime, firebricks ... etc. This is along the lines of what I would think.

Now if they had just thrown a high temperature high capacity blast furnace in there, they could have incinerated 100s in less than an hour. And that is what would have been done if they were planning to gas hundreds at a time as the story is told.

[ginger]

Maybe it would have worked to use a blast furnace. The fact that the Nazis built crematoria says that they had respect for the dead. The death toll of 162,000 is pretty high for the camp which at most was to house 200,000. With such high death tolls there was no need to mass murder people.

[blake121666]

Maybe it would have worked to use a blast furnace. The fact that the Nazis built crematoria says that they had respect for the dead. The death toll of 162,000 is pretty high for the camp which at most was to house 200,000. With such high death tolls there was no need to mass murder people.

We're not discussing the death toll here; just the maximum that could have been cremated. The death toll is probably nearer to the Red Cross numbers plus the gaps in them. That's around half of what we have calculated here in the 162,000 figure.

I can't say I've looked into the blast furnace issue in any depth; but just consider all the time, effort, and material we are being lead to believe was put into the cremation oven procedure for an alleged 100s (if not thousands) at a time gassing murders. Just think of that: gas hundreds of people and individually cremate each one an hour at a time! It's not unlike a diabolically ingenious plan to cut one's front lawn with tweezers. Off the top of my head I can see problems with my blast furnace suggestion, but nothing compared to the crematory oven scenario.

[hermod]

Maybe it would have worked to use a blast furnace. The fact that the Nazis built crematoria says that they had respect for the dead. The death toll of 162,000 is pretty high for the camp which at most was to house 200,000. With such high death tolls there was no need to mass murder people.

162,000 deaths in several years, not at one blow. Looks like a normal (or even quite low) turnover in that part of the world during a world war. During the first world war and the following years, typhus alone had taken over 3 million lives in Poland and Roumania, 10 million lives in Russia (making Lenin say "Socialism will defeat lice or lice will defeat Socialism") and the lives of one third of the Serbian people. Something hard to realize today but vital to understand this topic.

[ginger]

To blake

Mattogno does a thorough job – he works backwards from what was theoretically possible to what was practical – so he starts with the cremation ovens working 20 hours a day, then 12 hours a day. He figures, theoretically, that about 300,000 exterminated victims could have been cremated at Auschwitz BUT FOR the amount of fuel ordered and the limits to the fire brick material that made cremation possible. He makes a very good case