The Silence of Canaris on the "Gas Chambers"

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Hannover
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Re: The Silence of Canaris on the "Gas Chambers"

Postby Hannover » 4 years 11 months ago (Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:28 am)

No laapatti. That neither Canaris or the Hitler assassination plotters said anything about 'gassings' is not "speculation", it is fact.

Why then did you post a link which claims 40,000 Jews gassed if you considered it only "speculation" and "off topic"?

You are dodging my challenges.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Hektor
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Re: The Silence of Canaris on the "Gas Chambers"

Postby Hektor » 4 years 11 months ago (Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:35 am)

laapatti wrote:
Hannover wrote:laapatti, in your post above we see a lot of speculative 'could haves, maybes, & perhapses' in your attempt to rationalize the fact that neither Canaris or any of the plotters in the Hitler assassination attempt ever mentioned 'gas chambers'.


Yes, I replied to a one speculation with another.

Given that I haven't seen any contemporary source by German resistance that proclaims homicidal gassings, it's not speculation, it's and established fact

laapatti wrote:It was a reply to a post concerning the silence of resistance on gassings, not a statement concerning the facticity of the message. Whether the information given forward to Swedes by resistance was correct or not is more or less irrelevant here and as far as I can see also off-topic.
... Ah, I see you understood the word resistance a bit broader, but by Resistance we understood here the German "resistance" (and traitors) like Canaris, Stauffenberg, Bonhoeffer etc. And note that the last one complains about the treatment of Jews.

Your Vendel source is indirect and obscure. It claims Polish resistance and people from the Tresckow circle as source. Now show me something by Tresckow himself mentioning homicidal gassings! Then we are talking.

Your source is however interesting for another reason:
....In the cities all Jews are gathered; they are officially informed that it is for the purpose of 'delousing'. At the entrance they have to leave their clothes, which are immediately sent to a 'central warehouse textile materials'. Delousing is in practice gassing, after which all are packed into previ­ously prepared mass graves...

It shows the genesis of the gassing rumors. demonstrates that gassing rumors arose indeed from delousing, where gas is utilized for delousing clothing.

Here is a later report by the Polish Secret Army.
https://archive.org/details/ReportFromP ... WarTwo1943
It uses the word extermination (apparently for labor and the Germans combating foes), but doesn't mention anything about homicidal gas chambers.

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Re: The Silence of Canaris on the "Gas Chambers"

Postby Mulegino1 » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:20 pm)

...Another thing that is part of this is epistemology. We have seen also here how “hard” evidence for example photos are, it is not very easy to convince anyone by just showing someone a photo where someone is executed or showing photos of some people in mass graves, one needs at least more evidence of who is executed or who lies in the grave. Different kinds of sources work better here, corroborating what is shown in photos by witnesses and documents, convergence if you like. But as we know, documents can be faked as well. Thus, one could very well think eyewitness is the only convincing source, and I’m sure many think so even today. You know, Stalin trusted mostly in fake witnesses and tortured confessions instead of docs in his show-trials, even if he could have produced masses of fake docs to support his case as well.



Indeed, we have seen how hard it is to be convinced that photos are evidentiary when they are fakes, or have been altered. The Soviet atrocity photos are an example of this; they are crude forgeries and fakes, and can be easily exposed because they do not look real, or it is obvious they have been altered. On the other hand, a clear unaltered photograph of an actual event, or some authentic document strongly implying an extermination policy would be of tremendous propaganda value, both during and after the war. And British intelligence had plenty of intelligence analysts working for it who were experts in these type of things.


Imagine the propaganda effect of an authentic photograph of bodies piled up around a gas chamber, or a surreptitious photograph of the roof of Morgue I of Krema II with the captions: "Huns drop poison gas onto Jews"- in particular to stoke up the vindictive wrath of the British and American public.

Convergence of evidence presupposes some concrete physical or at least tangible evidence that a crime has been committed, or an event occurred, and (excluding the miraculous) this event must conform to the parameters of physical possibility.

It would have been unthinkable, say, for the Vatican not to have made inquiries about the alleged extermination program against the Jews to its contacts in the resistance for moral reasons alone. The Catholic members of the resistance (Canaris was a Catholic) would surely have felt morally bound to provide convincing proofs to the Vatican or the Spanish government (which also saved Sephardic Jews from deportation from Vichy France by giving them Spanish passports).

To paraphrase that old warmonger, Donald Rumsfeld: "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence," unless some is forthcoming.

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Re: The Silence of Canaris on the "Gas Chambers"

Postby Hektor » 4 years 6 months ago (Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:49 am)

Mulegino1 wrote:
........

It would have been unthinkable, say, for the Vatican not to have made inquiries about the alleged extermination program against the Jews to its contacts in the resistance for moral reasons alone. The Catholic members of the resistance (Canaris was a Catholic) would surely have felt morally bound to provide convincing proofs to the Vatican or the Spanish government (which also saved Sephardic Jews from deportation from Vichy France by giving them Spanish passports).

To paraphrase that old warmonger, Donald Rumsfeld: "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence," unless some is forthcoming.


I've seen in some books and article that it was mentioned that some people with links to the resistance did mention killing of Jews and gassings (whatever that was supposed to mean):
- Helmuth James von Moltke
- Ulrich von Hassell
Moltke apparently wrote something to Lionel Curtis and Hassell into his diary.
I haven't found texts closer to the original until now let alone transcripts of originals. There is some indication, though, that this is blowblack from Allied propaganda.

Moltke was close to Canaris and Hassell to several resistance groups. Yet, even if we assume that they did put something to that regard into writing, they didn't deem it necessary to enlighten their fellow conspirators about this. There is also something the the Foreign Office has on them, possibly we can learn more there.


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