Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

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Hannover
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Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:45 pm)

Here is a great example of how superior this forum is in comparison to other 'holocaust' debate sites.
In this case I've chosen the Skeptic Forum, their 'holocaust denial' section.

I've selected this one topic as a dramatic example, the mass graves that have supposedly been found at Treblinka.

Here are examples of threads found at this forum on the subject:
E. Hunt's "Treblinka Archaeology Hoax" Video / READY TO VIEW
Eric Hunt's response to David Cole / Treblinka
Nessie's case for Sturdy Colls & Treblinka
Sturdy Colls preliminary report
polish investigating Judge 1945

Now here is the thread on the very same topic from the less than rigorous Skeptic Forum:
'Treblinka Mass Graves"
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25127

While there is the occasional challenge to them, the proclaimed True Believers there are generally not held accountable. In essence, they can say anything they like, completely dodge challenges with a wave of the hand, change the subject with the drop of a hat, and simply cite references which have been utterly demolished at this forum. The name calling is embarrassingly prepubescent.

It's interesting to take a source they use in support of the claims and then plug it into our search function to reveal how utterly discredited that source is. What a difference real science, real research, rational thought, and logic makes.
Example, posted in the Skeptic Forum thread:
Wiernik (book, version in Donat, p 171) doesn’t give date but mentions the expert whose favorite expression was “tadellos”

Though the winter weather was bitter cold, the pyres gave off heat like an oven. This heat came from the burning bodies of Jews.

Now drop Wiernik or Wiernek into our search function. Boom! The truth in less than a second.
ex: "eyewitness" Yankel Wiernik at Treblinka

Compare, contrast, & search.
Comments invited.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived.
That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged
Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass gr

Postby Atigun » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:40 pm)

The casual acceptance of utter physical impossibilities by the so-called "skeptics" is breathtaking. The ignoring of the practical aspects of excavating upwards of 100,000 cubic meters and dealing with the excavated material renders their "examination" of the evidence for when the cremations began irrelevant. It's the equivalent of accepting the statement, "Yes, it was right after the little boy got back from riding his tricycle to the moon that the cremations began."

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass gr

Postby Dresden » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:22 pm)

Hannover said:

"It's interesting to take a source they use in support of the claims and then plug it into our search function to reveal how utterly discredited that source is. What a difference real science, real research, rational thought, and logic makes"

Atigun said:

"The casual acceptance of utter physical impossibilities by the so-called "skeptics" is breathtaking. The ignoring of the practical aspects of excavating upwards of 100,000 cubic meters and dealing with the excavated material renders their "examination" of the evidence for when the cremations began irrelevant"

Maybe you can ask them on the "Skeptic" Forum, if Fundamentalist Creationists offered the same quality of "proof" for Noah's Ark that Sturdy-Colls offers for the "mass graves" of Treblinka; would they accept it, or would they laugh themselves into a hernia?

How is Sturdy-Colls' "archaeology" any better than Ark-iology?
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass gr

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:23 pm)

Another guy at the Skeptic Form cites Rachel Auerbach in regards to Treblinka, ignoring what Auerbach actually said, which was:
Blood, too, was found to be first-class combustion material

- R. Auerbach, THE DEATH CAMP TREBLINKA: A DOCUMENTARY, edited by Alexander Donat

BTW, Auerbach, a Jew from Poland was actually never at Treblinka.

The Death Camp Treblinka, is a collection of essays. One of these essays is by Rachel Auerbach In the Fields of Treblinka.
Auerbach goes on to say:
The gas chamber was filled to the top. People were so tightly pressed into it that they had to raise their arms and draw in their bellies in order to make room for some more victims. The small children were hurled in over their heads.

[But according to the 'Encyclopedia of the Holocaust', ed. by Israel Gutman, the alleged victims were lured into the alleged gas chambers under the impression that they were going to receive showers. In fact it says the alleged diesel gas chambers had the 'appearance of showers' to facilitate the deception.
So, they supposedly had to raise their arms, suck in their bellies, and have children thrown in on top of them while falling for the alleged trick that they were about to receive a refreshing shower ... in an alleged diesel gas chamber made to look like a shower.]

The engine inside the workshop next to the bath house was started. First a vacuum pump was used in order to suck out of the chamber the clean air. Then the valves were opened to let in the exhaust fumes from the engine.

After 25 to 45 minutes the chamber door on the other side could be opened and the dead bodies fell out, they were naked, some were white.
In Treblinka children were often thrown into the fire or mass graves alive. The idea was to save gas and ammunition. They believed, that children would not die as easily as adults because their blood vessels were not yet hardened.

- Hannover

This is much too easy.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass gr

Postby Jurgen » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri May 01, 2015 12:43 am)

Steve F wrote:
Maybe you can ask them on the "Skeptic" Forum, if Fundamentalist Creationists offered the same quality of "proof" for Noah's Ark that Sturdy-Colls offers for the "mass graves" of Treblinka; would they accept it, or would they laugh themselves into a hernia?

How is Sturdy-Colls' "archaeology" any better than Ark-iology?


I am a full holocaust denier. Planned genocide and systematic killings by the Germans never took place.

I am also a Young Earth, Bible Believing, Creationist. It was through the same approach that I took to studying science, that led me to "creationism", that led me to first doubting the holocaust narrative, then to fully disbelieving it.
"The Holocaust narrative actually breaks down on a discrete, factual level, and is only tenable when it is presented as some vague or nebulous larger than life metahistorical event" Mulegino1

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass gr

Postby Dresden » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri May 01, 2015 1:23 am)

Jurgen said:

"I am also a Young Earth, Bible Believing, Creationist. It was through the same approach that I took to studying science, that led me to "creationism", that led me to first doubting the holocaust narrative, then to fully disbelieving it"

I'm sorry, Jurgen, but that doesn't make any sense to me; it seems to me that reason, and the scientific method would lead you away from man-made religion, not toward it.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass gr

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri May 01, 2015 4:43 am)

Since the topic of the thread is scepticism I think I am staying on topic.

I am a sceptic. I don't believe in God, flying saucers or the canonical version of the Holocaust. "Don't believe" doesn't imply negative belief; it implies a sceptical position that, in the absence of convincing evidence, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The default position is "Show me", but I'm prepared to modify my position if shown scientifically-verifiable evidence.

Now our problem is that for the overwhelming majority the Holocaust is self-evident, being supported as it is by all apparent authority figures, and we are constantly being presented with "evidence". * For them, it is Holocaust Denial which is the extraordinary claim, for which extraordinary evidence is needed. I was once there as all of you were, but because I am a sceptic I was prepared to see what the evidence was. Gradually over a period of years I came to realise that it was the Holocaust story which was extraordinary, defied reality and was unsupported by science. It is the Holocaust story which bears the burden of proof.

I'm still a sceptic. I don't don't take an extreme Revisionist position any more than Rassinier did. I am willing to modify my present position if presented with some solid evidence; if, for example, Caroline Sturdy Colls can show me the remains of pits that might once have held more than half a million bodies.

The Sceptics of Shermer's ilk are a rather narrow breed who might well have laughed at Einstein's ridiculous criticisms of Newtonian physics. They reject ideas like Extrasensory Perception, for example, on principle and instinctively dismiss attempts to show evidence for it. (I should say that I too am sceptical about ESP, but if evidence is shown we should look at it and attempt to assess it.) They are right to reject the credulity of a large part of the population but they can be guilty of a somewhat credulous incredulity themselves.

* I know about the Argument from Authority, but none of us have detailed knowledge of every subject under the sun and we are therefore obliged to rely on the views of those whom we feel have demonstrated their expertise and judgment in a field. I'm not capable of forming views on quantum physics or ancient Chinese history by myself.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass gr

Postby Hektor » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:44 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:Since the topic of the thread is scepticism I think I am staying on topic.
....
The Sceptics of Shermer's ilk are a rather narrow breed who might well have laughed at Einstein's ridiculous criticisms of Newtonian physics. They reject ideas like Extrasensory Perception, for example, on principle and instinctively dismiss attempts to show evidence for it. (I should say that I too am sceptical about ESP, but if evidence is shown we should look at it and attempt to assess it.) They are right to reject the credulity of a large part of the population but they can be guilty of a somewhat credulous incredulity themselves.

* I know about the Argument from Authority, but none of us have detailed knowledge of every subject under the sun and we are therefore obliged to rely on the views of those whom we feel have demonstrated their expertise and judgment in a field. I'm not capable of forming views on quantum physics or ancient Chinese history by myself.


My experience with this crowd is that they are anything but "skeptics". A skeptic would challenge a powerful or majority position arguing for it not to be true, right? The opposite is true for Shermer and his disciples. Take some examples:

- The Ufo-story, OK I even agree with them mostly on this, but their reason is simply that it doesn't have a stamp of academic approval.
- 911, here they take the government's position.
- Evolution vs. critique there of / Intelligent Design, again what's dominant in academia is gospel to them.
- Holocaust - who gets hounded and jailed in this? Then guess the position. To his credit Shermer has opposed persecution and debated Revisionists.
- Cryptozoology / If it isn't in a textbook prescribed by a government institution, it doesn't exist.
- "Conspiracy Theories", while it's a reality in business, social clubs, it can't exist in politics unless some official institution (Like the IMT) says it.
- Then there is esoteric stuff, some urban legends, etc. It's usually inaccurate and hence easy to dismiss.

I'm pretty certain they worship Albert Einstein, since he's the patron saint of academic science. Overall, I still have to find one example, where they take a risky position that would require some balls to do. It's always the "academic consensus" or official government position that trumps everything in their mind. They're kind of like a religious sect that attacks anything that's not in line with what their leaders teach. It's not about science, but "scientism", which is the ideological position that what main stream scientists tell you, must be true. I don't give too much currency on what they're saying, but they make for a good sociological or cultural study. Probably mostly mediocre nerds with degrees in something, that now act as if they know everything. Quite juvenile, but I hear Shermer is in trouble due to complaints about his behavior towards women. And it didn't seem to come from the Feminazi side.








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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby Leibniz » 3 years 3 months ago (Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:51 pm)

1) I see little evidence of gas chambers, and plenty against
2) I see no evidence of a historical Moses
3) I see little evidence for historical Jesus, and plenty against (in fact, holohoaxers use the same arguments as evangelical apologists "there were tons of witnesses!", "it's the most documented event of its time!", "you hate christians!", "the vast majority of scholars agree.." etc etc)
4) I see little to no evidence for Bigfoot, UFOs, ESP, auras and sundry other stupid hoaxes ... and plenty evidence against. (hey, even the Skeptic forum can get these things right!)
5) I see no evidence that anything other than fires brought down Trade Center towers (I have advanced degree in a hard science, and that's how I see it. IMHO, perhaps the purveyors of alternative theories simply want attention because ,despite their education, they offer weak arguments.)
6) I see limited evidence for a historical Muhammad, I am far from convinced such a person existed. (although, for some reason, discussion on this topic tends to be limited :roll:)
7) I'm on the fence about quantum nonlocality and the nonexistence of simultaneity. Clearly they are correct on some level, but are they the final answer? Is there something we are missing? It's a hell of a thing.

I have looked at other forums, and I must say that the signal to noise ratio on them is terrible. Disussions get sidetracked. While dissenting voices are nice to hear, trolling gets tiresome. If you want to get to the real facts on an issue relating to the Holocaust, CODOH is the place to be.
If you believe in the Holocaust, then you believe in torture.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby georgesmiley » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:14 am)

I've been browsing the Skeptic forum (Holocaust Denial sub forum). Last week the Rizolis started posting (mostly Jim). They have stirred the place up quite a bit and their opponents are very good at adhoms and triumphal declarations of "debunked".

The moderator Pyrrho, however, is being even handed in the face of a desperate request from one member to ban Jim Rizoli. He is not going to ban him.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby Review » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:06 am)

Leibniz wrote:1) ...
5) I see no evidence that anything other than fires brought down Trade Center towers (I have advanced degree in a hard science, and that's how I see it. IMHO, perhaps the purveyors of alternative theories simply want attention because ,despite their education, they offer weak arguments.)
.....


That's hardly the topic here, but you are using the same "appeal to authority" technique here ("I have studied hard science") as the holocaust industry is using when putting forward authorities, like Michael Shermer et al.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby Hektor » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:24 am)

georgesmiley wrote:I've been browsing the Skeptic forum (Holocaust Denial sub forum). Last week the Rizolis started posting (mostly Jim). They have stirred the place up quite a bit and their opponents are very good at adhoms and triumphal declarations of "debunked".

The moderator Pyrrho, however, is being even handed in the face of a despearate request from one member to ban Jim Rizoli. He is not going to ban him.

I have to confess that I didn't read their texts for a while. I'm just summarizing from what I remember, reading or listening to Shermer's utterances.

That Pyrrho doesn't ban Rizoli despite requests from members to ban Jim Rizoli, is to their credit. I'm not surprised by their debating style though.

Review wrote:
Leibniz wrote:5) I see no evidence that anything other than fires brought down Trade Center towers (I have advanced degree in a hard science, and that's how I see it. IMHO, perhaps the purveyors of alternative theories simply want attention because ,despite their education, they offer weak arguments.)


That's hardly the topic here, but you are using the same "appeal to authority" technique here ("I have studied hard science") as the holocaust industry is using when putting forward authorities, like Michael Shermer et al.

I didn't take it that Leibniz was committing an "appeal to (his own) authority" here, merely pointing out his personal background there. He acknowledged that the critics of the official conspiracy theory regarding 9/11 do have similar backgrounds, but that he finds their arguments weak. I also have some "hard science" background and I find some of the arguments plausible, while I find others weak.

To pick out the apparently weak arguments of an opposing view and then shooting them down, is an efficient debating tactic. But to demolish an opposing position logically and effectively one needs to go for the strongest arguments of the other side.

The epistemological foundations for a debated field are of importance. The fundamental research in the laboratory conditions is necessarily more rigorous and can work with almost pure empiricism. It's a bit different with with historical research or for that matter the religious experience. History requires a more holistic approach considering a bigger variety of sources, while the religious experience is actually based on revelation and introspection. That's why it's outside the field of science proper. But don't forget that the foundations of the scientific method are outside the field of science proper themselves (There are certain philosophical prerequisites, that need to be accepted with a high level of certitude, faith, if you want, before science can get started).

The question in case of the Holocaust e.g. the industrial homicidal gassing hypothesis is, what evidence would there HAVE TO BE to accept this notion? And then this needs to be compared with the evidence that is actually there. Here the Holocaust fails miserably. The theory isn't in accordance with the verifiable data. No babbling Human scientists can make up for this. Add to that the group interests involved in the matter and you get a picture of why it is widely believed.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby Mortimer » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:06 pm)

Some skeptics are still holding up the book Michael Shermer wrote which was supposed to be the ultimate rebuttal of holocaust revisionism. Has anyone at this CODOH forum actually read it ? There is a review and critique of Denying History by Carlo Mattogno here -
http://www.codoh.com/library/document/1756/
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby Leibniz » 3 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:29 pm)

Hektor wrote:I didn't take it that Leibniz was committing an "appeal to (his own) authority" here, merely pointing out his personal background there.

Thanks for stating this so I don't have to. :cheers:

Hektor wrote:The question in case of the Holocaust e.g. the industrial homicidal gassing hypothesis is, what evidence would there HAVE TO BE to accept this notion? And then this needs to be compared with the evidence that is actually there. Here the Holocaust fails miserably. The theory isn't in accordance with the verifiable data. No babbling Human scientists can make up for this.

Couldn't agree more. There is plenty of evidence that could be ascribed to the Holocaust, but it can also be ascribed to much more banal phenomena and events, like delousing. Whenever evidence that could only be ascribed to a Holocaust-style narrative is sought, e.g. HUUUUGE mass graves, then it is not found. This is probably the tactic behind saying 'the convergence of evidence'. They point to a lot of stuff that can be mundanely explained, ascribe it to the Holocaust, and then claim that since there is so much, then the Holocaust happened. May suck as science, but it keeps the tourist$ coming.
If you believe in the Holocaust, then you believe in torture.

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Re: Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

Postby Gary Freeman » 3 years 3 months ago (Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:53 pm)

Has anyone noticed that the "skeptic community" (the likes of those who follow Shermer religiously) has turned into a faith club? I'll explain...

While I think they are correct in—most likely—the majority of topics, it seems that they have switched their position from one of skepticism to one of denouncing skepticism. This transition was slow at first, but it seems that the rise in use of the word "denialism" increased the speed of that transition, and now they are firmly on the other side—the side of "faith before skepticism."

From my observations, this transition is so bad that most of these people have stopped thinking skeptically about anything at all. I think this was probably an inevitable change, considering the fact that their was a skeptic community in the first place. When humans get together, they start probing each other for approval, because nobody wants to be an outcast. Eventually they all settle in on agreements of what they will collectively believe, and I think this is what has happened.

One of their [smaller] leaders came up with a term several years back to help skeptics find "conspiracy theorists" and "denialists" to quickly dismiss them. He calls it "anomaly hunting." The summary of his method is that if someone points out a few small anomalies, the odds are he has nothing, and the community can dismiss him without further investigation. The only problem is that this would force them to dismiss the entirety of science, since the scientific method requires that we search for problems in an attempt to improve and strengthen any theory.

The fact that they have gone this far should be disturbing to them, but it isn't. Probably because feeling like you can know almost anything by simply reading established views likely has a high dopamine reward.

If they only knew how lazy and pathetic they look.


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