Skeptic Forum vs. CODOH Forum: alleged Treblinka mass graves

[Hektor]

Here's a quote from CS-C's preliminary report at Nessie's link to, http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... tion-camp/

"Structural remains of the Old Gas Chamber buried beneath approximately 1m of demolition rubble and artefacts"

So, Nessie claims that the Treblinka totenlager was covered with at least 6 feet of sand and CS-C says 1 meter that includes, "demolition rubble and artefacts." That's taken from the photo of the excavation showing soil and some unidentified objects. The problem being that even if the Treblinka II totenlager's grade is raised by only 1 meter, that's still a little over 48,500 m^3 (48,564 m^3) of fill to cover the 12 acres of the alleged totenlager.

One of the real problems for the exterminationists and their witnesses is that they don't ever take a minute to ask themselves, "Is that actually possible?" I know what it takes to raise grade on roads/building sites and trying to do so with just some draglines isn't going to get the job done.

mmmhhh perhaps it's not a homicidal gas chamber, but just a smashed down old building. But for the devout Holocaustian every item ever found becomes proof for their narrative. And if they find nothing? Then that's proof that the fiendish Nazis made the evidence vanish.

Except for being ideologically blinded one problem of Holocaust believers (including "experts") is that they lack technical understanding. It even seems that they view that as something too blue collar and beneath their "expertise" or academic dignity to deal with.

But real science has to work empirical and logical - so deal with it.

[HeiligeSturm]

No. The photos were taken on flat land...



...where the stockpiles are high enough to obscure the nearby trees...

Have you ever been in or even seen a quarry?
This is the way quarries get started. By excavation on high or flat land!


This quarry could be alleged as a site of mass murder of at least another 6 million Russian Jews
as Finland was collaborating with the evil Germans during WWII.
That white building on the background could be a gas chamber.

...and on a level with a nearby building...

Are you hinting that the evil Germans are digging next to a gas chamber?
Or what do you think that "nearby building" is?
Have you heard of barracks where workers eat their food and/or drink coffee?
No, it must be something more evil. There's some kind of gate next to the building...
Industrial areas have always been notorious for not having fences and gates around 'em. Or was it the other way around?

They are not working in a quarry.

Why not? Oh yeah, they must have been digging mass graves for the (900 000) gassed victims.

These artifacts belonging probably to an SS-man also prove that something sinister must have happened in Treblinka.

Was this evil German killed by the Soviets or the (most likely Jewish) inmates? In the legendary revolt?
Or was he just a deserter as metal gorget was usually a distinguishing mark of the duty.
Abandoning his water bottle, he must have died of thirst...
Similar artifacts:

German Helmet Inside.jpg (32.3 KiB) Viewed 976 times

$_57.JPG (28.76 KiB) Viewed 976 times

ss gorget.jpg (38.87 KiB) Viewed 976 times

There's also a question about Treblinka excavator photos: who actually took those photos?
Was it really the Germans?
After all, in the so called Aktion Reinhardt Oath of Secrery is stated:
"4. über ein ausdrückliches Photografier-Verbot in den Lagern des 'Einsatzes Reinhardt'"
"4. that there is an absolute prohibition on photography in the camps of 'Einsatz Reinhardt'"

In the end, you can make so much allusions (and accusations) as you want but it really doesn't prove anything.
And regarding the "exhumation" by Staffordshire University's The Centre of Archaeology,
there quite a few revealing scenes in Treblinka: Inside Hitler’s Secret Death Camp / Treblinka: Hitler's Killing Machine.
One of the best scenes is this conversation:
Michael Schudrich, the Chief Rabbi of Poland: "If you actually find a mass grave, you have to stop."
Caroline Sturdy Colls: "Yes, of course."

If she actually finds a mass grave, she has to stop. What kind of logic is that?
She went there to find alleged mass graves! And this is supposed to be scientific and forensic exhumation.
The Treblinka Archaeology Hoax truly does great job showing how incompetent and staged these "forensic exhumations" are.

[Hektor]

.....
There's also a question about Treblinka excavator photos: who actually took those photos?
Was it really the Germans?
After all, in the so called Aktion Reinhardt Oath of Secrery is stated:
"4. über ein ausdrückliches Photografier-Verbot in den Lagern des 'Einsatzes Reinhardt'"
"4. that there is an absolute prohibition on photography in the camps of 'Einsatz Reinhardt'"

In the end, you can make so much allusions (and accusations) as you want but it really doesn't prove anything.
And regarding the "exhumation" by Staffordshire University's The Centre of Archaeology,
there quite a few revealing scenes in Treblinka: Inside Hitler’s Secret Death Camp / Treblinka: Hitler's Killing Machine.
One of the best scenes is this conversation:
Michael Schudrich, the Chief Rabbi of Poland: "If you actually find a mass grave, you have to stop."
Caroline Sturdy Colls: "Yes, of course."

If she actually finds a mass grave, she has to stop. What kind of logic is that?
She went there to find alleged mass graves! And this is supposed to be scientific and forensic exhumation.
The Treblinka Archaeology Hoax truly does great job showing how incompetent and staged these "forensic exhumations" are.

I checked the regulation you quoted a bit out - No facsimile until now, so still weak. But here is the full text:

Der … erklärt:
Durch SS Hauptsturmführer Höfle als Leiter der Hauptabteilung „Einsatz Reinhard” beim SS- und Polizeiführer im Distrikt Lublin bin ich eingehend unterrichtet und belehrt worden:
1. darüber, dass ich unter keinen Umständen an Personen die ausserhalb des Kreises der Mitarbeiter im "Einsatz Reinhard" stehen, irgendwelche Mitteilungen über den Verlauf, die Abwicklung oder die Vorkommnisse bei der Judenumsiedlung mündlich oder schriftlich zukommen lassen darf;
2. darüber, dass die Vorgänge bei der Judenumsiedlung Gegenstand einer "Geheimen Reichssache" im Sinne der Verschl. V. a sind;
3. über die entsprechenden Sonderbestimmungen der Geschäftsordnung des SS- und Polizeiführers im Distrikt Lublin unter ausdrücklichem Hinweis darauf, dass diese Vorschriften "Befehle in Dienstsachen" bzw. "Gebote und Verbote" im Sinne des § 92 b R. St. G. B. sind;
4. über ein ausdrückliches Photografier-Verbot in den Lagern des "Einsatzes Reinhard"
5. über §§ 88 bis 93 R. St. G. B. in der Fassung vom 24. April 1934 und über die Verordnung gegen Bestechung und Geheimnisverrat nichtbeamteter Personen vom 3. Mai 1917, 12. Februar 1920;
6. über die §§ des R. St. G. B. 139 (Anzeigpflicht) und 353 c (Verletzung des Amtsgeheimnisses).
Ich kenne die angeführten Bestimmungen und Gesetze und bin mir der Pflichten bewusst, die mir aus der übertragenen Aufgabe erwachsen.
Ich verspreche, sie nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen wahrzunehmen. Mir ist bekannt, dass die Pflicht der Geheimnishaltung auch nach meinem Ausscheiden aus dem Dienst weiterbesteht.
https://www.herder-institut.de/no_cache ... tails.html

OK, that sounds like some Affidavit to keep secrecy over a "Reichsmatter". Quite normal given the circumstances. If you assume the Revisionist Model on what happened to be true, it still would lend itself to rumor mongering, propaganda and the like. You also sign similar agreements, when you work on the premises of some mine or factory... Are exterminationists going to allege that mines and factories are actually extermination sites were "Production", "Maintenance", etc. are some euphemism for killing people.

Also note that the text talks about "Judenumsiedlung" best translation: Resettlement of Jews. There is no evidence at all that we're dealing with a homicidal extermination program here. And that "Judenumsiedlung" is some euphemism or fiendish code word.

The spelling of "Photografier-Verbot" is a bit odd. Fotografierverbot is the modern correct spelling. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotografierverbot
I challenge anyone in disagreement with this to demonstrate the spelling "Photografier-Verbot" is contemporary. Of course the writer could just be not a good speller, but I doubt that this is the case with a document that had to be signed by a large number of Germans. Feel free to do a google check up and do a look at older dictionaries. It may just be a deviant spelling. For me the original form and it's distribution would be of more importance.

Just btw. It states that the duty to secrecy would continue after completion of service. If that's a real affidavit, wouldn't that make witnesses talking about their supposed experiences perjurers? Now that would make them useless in a trial. Funny how such testimony was still willingly accepted, when it served the purpose of smearing the Germans. Not even the defense councils thought of that. It would also explain, why the honest SS-men didn't talk a lot about what happened. They'd still feel to be bound to their oath, even at an disadvantage.

[HeiligeSturm]

The spelling of "Photografier-Verbot" is a bit odd. Fotografierverbot is the modern correct spelling. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotografierverbot
I challenge anyone in disagreement with this to demonstrate the spelling "Photografier-Verbot" is contemporary. Of course the writer could just be not a good speller, but I doubt that this is the case with a document that had to be signed by a large number of Germans. Feel free to do a google check up and do a look at older dictionaries. It may just be a deviant spelling. For me the original form and it's distribution would be of more importance.

I also noted that. That was one of the reasons why I underlined it. It seems that the one who wrote the document wasn't German.
Germans spelled Joseph as Josef, telephone as telefon, etc...

We do know that the Soviets captured German typewriters, blank papers and rubber stamps among other things.
You can found some of these rubber stamps (like the ones from Auschwitz) sold as "original" in militaria collecting circles but those fake.
Same goes with lots of documents. One should have some healthy skepticism when dealing with 'em.
Especially with the stuff that comes from the former Soviet Union. They had decades to forge stuff.

But back to the point.
There seems to be some disagreements about the spelling:
"In fact, many words that originally contained the letters 'ph' have now been Germanified such that they are now spelled with an 'f'. You would now write Telefon, for example, rather than Telephon, and Fotografie rather than Photographie."
http://joycep.myweb.port.ac.uk/pronounce/consonf.html

This site claims that both spellings could be used.
"The disgraph ph comes only in German words of foreign origin. (Das Alphabet, die Philosophie, die Strophe/ verse.)

When encountering a word that has the sound phon, phot or graph, then the choice is yours to either write it with f or with ph ->der Photograph or der Fotograf."
http://german.about.com/od/writinggerma ... g-Tips.htm
(Emphasis added)

But still Germans spell gramofon rather than gramophon(e) and fotografie rather than photographie.

[Hektor]

It's always possible an ethnic German, with nor good grasp of the language wrote it, but then this document would have been written by a jurist (Note the references to legislation). And yes, the spelling, especially of loanwords did change over time.

Soviet forgery is always a possibility: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20751319?s ... b_contents
But tell that to a Holocaust believer, they aren't even aware of the problem. Their Joker argument:"You are a conspiracy nut".
Newsflash: Your causties believe in documentary evidence that then turns out not to prove your case, whence you insist that the Nazis destroyed the evidence sounds much more like a silly conspiracy theory.

But anyway, the document lends itself to proof for deportations, in that sense it's completely in line with the Revisionist position and another document not supporting the Exterminationist position.

The earthmoving pictures don't help the Exterminationist position neither.

It's just a form people working during war time on some government action would have to sign.