Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

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Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 2 months ago (Thu May 14, 2015 5:59 am)



From the description:

In 2015, Ursula Haverbeck made history in a defiant interview in which she threw down the gauntlet to the biggest taboo of our times. Revisionism . . . on German TV! A seismic event.


As always, if anyone spots anything that needs fixing, please let me know. There are a couple of little points I'm still not sure of myself, and I may post about that later. I'll also be writing up a more detailed set of notes for the YouTube description for those who may not be up to speed on all the details and names.

It's a great interview. There's some back-and-forth, and Bongen tries to play gotcha! with Frau Haverbeck on several occasions, but the grand old lady more than holds her own.
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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 2 months ago (Thu May 14, 2015 10:33 am)

I've only watched ten minutes so far but she is impressive.

I find it hard to believe this was on mainstream German TV. Did it receive any further media coverage or did it just sink into the memory hole? If she was able to get away with this does it mean there is a chance of something resembling a debate in Germany?

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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 2 months ago (Fri May 15, 2015 6:20 am)

I've watched it all now and thanks Klad for the magnificent job on the subtitles. I thought the interviewer was very tame and did little more than ask her the obvious questions. If I were a True Believer I'd probably be annoyed at him for giving her such an easy time, to the point where I wonder if he isn't a sympathiser. How did the broadcast ever come about? Is this on a major widely-viewed German channel?

She was fantastic: clear, lively, responsive, convincing. She totally dominated.

I wonder if this is blocked in Germany? It would be ironic if it were, after going out on German TV, but she said far more than Bishop Williamson did.

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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 2 months ago (Fri May 15, 2015 6:33 am)

I'm logged in but I can't edit so I'll have to open a new post.

To answer my own question: Panorama is the flagship current affairs programme on Das Erste, the main public TV channel in Germany. I am amazed that it was broadcast.

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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby NLH » 4 years 2 months ago (Fri May 15, 2015 8:00 am)

What a remarkable lady, truly, and on national tv no less. She will not face charges, so well spoken, and elderly, it would give far too much exposure. I think this internet on tv will be the most we'll get about her on a mass media scale. It really does shock me that this was aired.

And Kladderadatsch, what a fantastic service you have done.

Hope these can be hardcoded at some point and uploaded everywhere. Great job!

Shared on facebook, with links to CODOH threads mentioning her.

Another thread on this lady: A Great German Lady opens the Black Box of "the Holocaust"
"Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."
- Kitty Hart-Moxon, Jewish Holocaust Survivor.

June 1998 testimony, USC Shoah Foundation, Visual History Archive.
Part 2 - YouTube - 1:21:42

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Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Lamprecht » 4 years 2 months ago (Sun May 17, 2015 3:40 pm)

[This post was merged to this thread to avoid repetition. M1]



There's a German but not English wikipedia article on this woman: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck

Ursula Haverbeck, an elderly German lady described the hoax as a "sustainable lie in history" on German TV.

She has made similar statements before but she has always just been fined for this thoughtcrime. However after recent trials they may be obligated to put the 87-year-old in prison.

Will they have the nerve?
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Zulu » 4 years 2 months ago (Mon May 18, 2015 10:00 am)

Kladderadatsch wrote:
In 2015, Ursula Haverbeck made history in a defiant interview in which she threw down the gauntlet to the biggest taboo of our times. Revisionism . . . on German TV! A seismic event.

Thanks Klad. I downloaded the Youtube video but the resulting mp4 file doesn't display the English subtitles. I don't know if the Download Helper that I use with Firefox has an option to solve such issue.

Could you put here the corresponding .srt file ?
It will be useful for me anyway to make French subtitles for that video. TIA.

To Moderator: have you already worked on that separated platform to put posts like that one?
It is to separate technical questions on videos and subtitling from the Forum as there are out of topic on holomatters. You could name that space "Workshop on videos and subtitles"

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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Moderator » 4 years 2 months ago (Mon May 18, 2015 12:24 pm)

To Moderator: have you already worked on that separated platform to put posts like that one?
It is to separate technical questions on videos and subtitling from the Forum as there are out of topic on holomatters. You could name that space "Workshop on videos and subtitles"

No, but we certainly can. Let me discuss this with our Webmaster.
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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Webmaster » 4 years 2 months ago (Mon May 18, 2015 5:01 pm)

The separated platform for this has been arranged and is now available, dig in: Technical Workshop on Revisionist Videos and Subtitles.
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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Dr. Edgar Dahl » 4 years 2 months ago (Tue May 19, 2015 1:26 am)

The interview of Ursula Haverbeck, I'm sad to say, is no evidence of a real debate on the Holocaust in Germany. The interview was only meant to show to the German viewers that there are still a lot of "confused" people out there denying that the Holocaust ever happenend. Thus, the interview is going to serve as a justification for producing even more documentaries about the "facts" of the Holocaust.

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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 2 months ago (Tue May 19, 2015 7:43 am)

Two questions re wording for German experts. There are two brief passages in the video that I still am not quite sure of. If anyone can help me with them, I'd really appreciate it. People are asking for a transcript so as to start working on versions in other languages, and I'd like to give them as good a foundation as I can.



@ 35:35 Warum machen sie jetzt mit Burger wie an einem Frankfurt jetzt wieder auf dem Schubfach geholen . . .

Who is Burger?! I've listened to the passage over and over, and that's the only name I can plausibly make out from it. As I said in my notes to the video on YouTube, I suspect that it may be a slip somehow for "Gröning" and that Haverbeck is indeed referring to the recent show trial in Lüneburg: that makes sense of "wie an einem Frankfurt" as well. But I may be mishearing something; I just can't tell. Any ideas?


@ 48:12 Na bitte, dann muss ich das in Kauf nehmen wenn die Leute das fillen. Besser halten ihre [Ihre?] Meinung.

1) What is the final verb at the end of the first sentence? It sounds something like "fillen" which could be either "wollen" or "fühlen" . . . or maybe something else? I originally went with "fühlen" ("if people feel that way") because the word itself sounded more like that than "wollen" to me, but I've come to think it must be "wollen" after all ("if people want to do that") since that makes better sense. Any ideas?

2) In context, the second sentence "wants" to be something like: "Better stick to your beliefs." (That's what it makes sense for Haverbeck to say there.) But I am troubled by "ihre." If it refers back to "die Leute" in the previous sentence, then the whole meaning changes to something like "Better for them to stick to their own beliefs." That's possible, of course: it just doesn't seem very right for the context. So I took the word as the polite "Ihre" instead, which makes the sentence something addressed specifically to the interviewer: "Better for you [Robert Bongen] to stick to your beliefs." Obviously that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, but I'm guessing that Haverbeck meant to say something more general ("Besser halt man [sich an] seine eigene Meinung"), and then garbled it as she switched, mid-sentence as it were, to polite language directed toward Bongen. Does that make sense?
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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 2 months ago (Tue May 19, 2015 7:53 am)

Zulu wrote:
Kladderadatsch wrote:
In 2015, Ursula Haverbeck made history in a defiant interview in which she threw down the gauntlet to the biggest taboo of our times. Revisionism . . . on German TV! A seismic event.

Thanks Klad. I downloaded the Youtube video but the resulting mp4 file doesn't display the English subtitles. I don't know if the Download Helper that I use with Firefox has an option to solve such issue.

Could you put here the corresponding .srt file ?
It will be useful for me anyway to make French subtitles for that video. TIA.


Hi Zulu,

As you can see from my post above, I still might make a few last corrections, so keep tuned to the thread here in case we can resolve those questions. For now, however, I've attached the .srt file for the subtitles as they currently stand. I have a request from a Spanish-speaking YouTuber for the file as well; it will be great to see the interview available in multiple languages.

K.

p.s. Moderator/Webmaster: I see that you've set up a new subsection of the forum in which to discuss technical questions like these. I think it's a great idea. But I hope you'll forgive me for making a few last posts here in the meantime, since that's where the questions have been asked about this video in particular. Thanks.
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Der grosse Kladderadatsch war da.

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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Moderator » 4 years 2 months ago (Tue May 19, 2015 8:29 am)

Klad:
p.s. Moderator/Webmaster: I see that you've set up a new subsection of the forum in which to discuss technical questions like these. I think it's a great idea. But I hope you'll forgive me for making a few last posts here in the meantime, since that's where the questions have been asked about this video in particular. Thanks.

Understood, carry on.
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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Occam's Razor » 4 years 2 months ago (Tue May 19, 2015 1:05 pm)

double post (can be deleted)
Last edited by Occam's Razor on Tue May 19, 2015 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ursula Haverbeck: The Panorama Interview

Postby Occam's Razor » 4 years 2 months ago (Tue May 19, 2015 1:12 pm)

Kladderadatsch:

@ 35:35 Warum machen sie jetzt mit Burger wie an einem Frankfurt jetzt wieder auf dem Schubfach geholen . . .

Who is Burger?! I've listened to the passage over and over, and that's the only name I can plausibly make out from it. As I said in my notes to the video on YouTube, I suspect that it may be a slip somehow for "Gröning" and that Haverbeck is indeed referring to the recent show trial in Lüneburg: that makes sense of "wie an einem Frankfurt" as well. But I may be mishearing something; I just can't tell. Any ideas?


This is what I hear:

Warum machen sie jetzt – sogar die Anne Frank wird jetzt wieder aus dem Schuhfach geholt. Obwohl das nun wirklich nachgewiesen ist in allen möglichen Prozessen, dass das 'ne Fälschung ist, nich?


Sounds like Schuhschrank:

"Why do they now—they're even pulling Anne Frank out from the shoe cupboard again."

First she asks "Warum machen Sie jetzt" = "Why do they (now)" or, "Why are they now / doing this ...", then stops in the middle of the sentence, and then continues:
"sogar die Anne Frank wird jetzt wieder aus dem Schuhfach geholt." = "they're even pulling Anne Frank out from the shoe cupboard again."

Never heard that expression. I think she's improvising.

I think she wanted to say something like

"Sogar die Anne Frank holen sie jetzt wieder hervor" or "Sogar die Anne Frank kramen sie jetzt wieder hervor" or "Sogar die Anne Frank graben sie jetzt wieder aus."

Which means more or less:

"They're even pulling Anne Frank out from the closet again." or "They're even digging out Anne Frank again.

Or "pulled from the drawer", as you wrote.

But translating and putting it in proper English is your job :)

I think you confused "Burger" with "sogar" (= "even").


@ 48:12 Na bitte, dann muss ich das in Kauf nehmen wenn die Leute das fillen. Besser halten ihre [Ihre?] Meinung.

1) What is the final verb at the end of the first sentence? It sounds something like "fillen" which could be either "wollen" or "fühlen" . . . or maybe something else? I originally went with "fühlen" ("if people feel that way") because the word itself sounded more like that than "wollen" to me, but I've come to think it must be "wollen" after all ("if people want to do that") since that makes better sense. Any ideas?

2) In context, the second sentence "wants" to be something like: "Better stick to your beliefs." (That's what it makes sense for Haverbeck to say there.) But I am troubled by "ihre." If it refers back to "die Leute" in the previous sentence, then the whole meaning changes to something like "Better for them to stick to their own beliefs." That's possible, of course: it just doesn't seem very right for the context. So I took the word as the polite "Ihre" instead, which makes the sentence something addressed specifically to the interviewer: "Better for you [Robert Bongen] to stick to your beliefs." Obviously that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, but I'm guessing that Haverbeck meant to say something more general ("Besser halt man [sich an] seine eigene Meinung"), and then garbled it as she switched, mid-sentence as it were, to polite language directed toward Bongen. Does that make sense?



1) What is the final verb at the end of the first sentence?
[...]
2) In context, the second sentence "wants" to be something like: "Better stick to your beliefs."

There is no final verb.
There is no second sentence.

Haverbeck simply stops in the middle of her thought and in the middle of the sentence.

She says:
Tja bitte, dann muss ich das in Kauf nehmen, wenn die Leute das für besser halten ... ihre Meinung....

Translation:
"Well, ok, then I must accept that, if the people think it's better ... their opinion ..."

She does indeed stop for a moment at the "für", as if originally she wanted to say something else.

Something like:

"Tja bitte, dann muss ich das in Kauf nehmen, wenn die Leute das wollen"
= "if the people want that"

or

"Tja bitte, dann muss ich das in Kauf nehmen, wenn die Leute das finden, daß das gut ist."
= "if the people find that is good"

But then she decides for "für besser halten". And then she gets confused and stops.

I think what she wanted to say is something like this:

Tja bitte, dann muss ich das in Kauf nehmen, wenn die Leute das für besser halten, sich ihre Meinung vom Staat per Strafandrohung vorschreiben zu lassen.


Translation:
"Well, ok, then I must accept that, if the people think it's better to let the government decide what opinions they can have with the threat of imprisonment."

But that's my interpretation. Don't put that in the subtitles, I'm just guessing her thoughts. Her sentence is simply incomplete. She stops in the middle of her thought, and then waits a second. And most listeners (and her interrogator) will probably guess what she wanted to convey.

Again, this is what she actually says:

Tja bitte, dann muss ich das in Kauf nehmen, wenn die Leute das für besser halten ... ihre Meinung....

Translation:
"Well, ok, then I must accept that, if the people think it's better ... their opinion ..."


PS:
I think your translation:
"Well then, that's just a risk I have to take"
is even more appropriate then my "then I must accept that":

"Well then, that's just a risk I have to take, if the people think it's better ... their opinion ..."


Great job, btw!


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