Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby Hannover » 2 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:43 am)

Only for the The Black Rabbit are reasonable requests for original documents, which he claims exists, considered "spoonfeeding". IOW, he cannot produce the documents and resorts to dodging. There's no other way to describe it. If they were "easily found on the internet" he would easily produce them. Rabbit knows he's in over his head and is now running away.

Imagine this guy in a legit court of law, it would be a bloodbath.

Rabbit attempts to cover for his guru, Mattogno. Yet Mattogno has failed to produce documents necessary to buttress his position, so naturally Rabbit cannot produce them either. But hey, Mattogno is an authority who must be covered at all costs. Rabbit has let his man crush interfere with detached reasoning.

Note that the Rabbit dodges the fact that Auschwitz numbers are easily accessed on, well, some individuals who were at Auschwitz.

Within all the dodging The Rabbit engages in there is none more important than his inability show us a forensic report indicating phosgene on/in any of the alleged human remains or on the walls of the alleged 'gas chamber'. In fact he cannot show us proof of human remains. Laughable in the extreme.

once again:
And I guess that's why you nor anyone else can show us these phantom pictures. You now say that there is a document which "mentions" some phantom "findings", but there is no actual "findings". Now that is laughable. This is truly getting better by the minute.
Show us what you claim exists, Rabbit.

Clearly we're seeing another case of false gassings. This is an alleged massive crime, therefore all efforts should have been made to collect and store all the evidence, that obviously did not occur. Until all requested documents, studies, reports, and physical evidence are actually shown we are left with nothing more than media created hype.

Mattogno simply missed this one, rare for him, but his lack of evidence here speaks for itself.
Rabbit has clearly blundered and has a issue of pride to now deal with. C'est la vie.

- Hannover


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby Hannover » 2 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:28 pm)

And like so many Germans arrested after the war, August Hirt conveniently "committed suicide" before going to trial.
The Allies certainly didn't want him spoiling what they had planned.

It's noted once again that TheBlackRabbitofInle can produce no proof of 'phosgene gassings'. :lol:

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:39 pm)

Over at Holocaust Controversies Jonathan Harrison has weighed in on the Natzweiler gassing issue, no doubt inspired by the recent findings in Strasbourg. And Harrison took the wise move of at least familiarising himself with the case by reading—seemingly just bits of—a few online sources before he announced his judgment of what really happened 72 years ago in Naztweiler.

Below I'll quote his post in full, but please see his original for his hyperlinked sources.

Monday, July 27, 2015
Natzweiler Gassing Victims (Warning: Graphic Content)

This photo shows an autopsy photograph of Menachem Taffel, who had been gassed at Natzweiler. His body was one of 86 found at Reichsuniversität Strasbourg upon its liberation, whereupon autopsies were carried out by Professor Camille Simonin.

Researcher Hans-Joachim Lang describes in this article (p.378) how Taffel was identified in the 1960s:
At the end of the 1960s, when the district attorney of Frankfurt initiated inquiries into Bruno Beger and Hans Fleischhacker, the former concentration camp prisoner, Hermann Langbein, saw a photograph that had been taken during the autopsies among the collected evidence. This photograph depicted a body with a number on his left forearm (Fig. 6). With the support of the archives in Auschwitz he succeeded in identifying the dead man as Max Menachem Taffel. Menachem Taffel, a Jew born in Galicia, was last known to have been a milkman who had lived with his family in Berlin. From there he was deported to Auschwitz along with his wife and his 14-year old daughter on March 12, 1943. Apparently no one knew that the autopsy protocols had been preserved and thus Menachem Taffel remained for decades the only victim, for whom the prisoner’s number had also been associated with a name.


This finding converged with documentation presented in the Nuremberg case against Rudolf Brandt. On February 29th, 1942, Sievers had written to Brandt regarding the procedure to be used for obtaining human skulls for experimentation:
Following the subsequently induced death of the Jew, whose head must not be damaged, he will separate the head from the torso and will forward it to its point of destination in a preserving fluid in a well-sealed tin container especially made for this purpose [source]


On June 23rd, 1943, Sievers advised Eichmann on how these Jews would be procured from Auschwitz:
With reference to your letter of 25 September 1942, IV B 4 3576/42 g 1488, and the personal talks which have taken place in the meantime on the above matter, you are informed that the coworker in this office who was charged with the execution of the above-mentioned special task, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Bruno Beger, ended his work in the Auschwitz concentration camp on 15 June 1943 because of the existing danger of infectious diseases.

A total of 115 persons were worked on, 79 of whom were Jews, 2 Poles, 4 Asiatics, and 30 Jewesses. At present, these prisoners are separated according to sex and each group is accommodated in a hospital building of the Auschwitz concentration camp and are in quarantine.

For further processing of the selected persons an immediate transfer to the Natzweiler concentration camp is now imperative, this must be accelerated in view of the danger of infectious diseases in Auschwitz. Enclosed is a list containing the names of the selected persons.

It is requested that the necessary directives be issued.

Since with the transfer of the prisoners to Natzweiler the danger of spreading diseases exists, it is requested that an immediate shipment of disease-free and clean prisoners’ clothing for 80 men and 30 women be ordered sent from Natzweiler to Auschwitz.


Evidence of the gassing includes the "Bautagebuch" [building diary] shown here and Kramer's interrogation [here]. Evidence of the gas chamber itself is here.

There can therefore be no doubt that Taffel, shown above, had suffered an 'induced' death, and that gas was used presumably to ensure no damage to the skull.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/natzweiler-gassing-victims-warning.html



This is my pending, awaiting approval comment I posted on Harrison's post:

HARRISON: This photo shows an autopsy photograph of Menachem Taffel, who had been gassed at Natzweiler.

Eugène Helffer, Head of investigations at the Strasbourg police department, said they were "prises par la Police Française aussitôt après la libération de Strasbourg à l'Institut d'Anatomie de l'Université de Strasbourg" in his November 16, 1946, covering certificate which was forward to Nuremberg with 21 photos of the corpses and other documents relating to the case. (See NO 807).

Some of the photos—including that one of Taffel—were clearly taken in the room the were allegedly found; you can see the lid and tiled-front of the vat in your Taffel photo for heaven's sake Harrison!

Presumably the autopsies, whether conducted by Simonin or by Professor René Fabre, took place where they were found: the Strasbourg AI—they could hardly have moved them to a much more suitable place.



Your source: Miloslav Bilik, claims of one photo: "This corpse is in the middle of undergoing an autopsy. The forensic doctor made what one might call "slashes"[?] in making deep incisions in the skin, in order to find latent deep bruises, not visible on the surface of the skin, showing any brutality before death. This image solidly proves that autopsies were performed on the victims of the camp of Struthof."

It's certainly bizarre that Bilik felt he needed to appeal to a photo for solid proof that autopsies really took place!



And why is it, Harrison, that none of tattoo numbers of any of the other of the 16 (sometimes said to be 17) whole corpses found in Strasbourg AI are known? The caption for photo no. 13 in NO 807 states that the tattoos were removed only when the corpses were "defleshed".

Why were the tattoo numbers not recorded by Professor Camille Simonin, the man you claim carried out the autopsies?



HARRISON: On February 29th, 1942, Sievers had written to Brandt regarding the procedure to be used for obtaining human skulls for experimentation:

You really need to stop relying on the internet for everything Harrison. Whoever made that note on your link got the date wrong. Siever's letter was dated February 9th.



HARRISON: On June 23rd, 1943, Sievers advised Eichmann on how these Jews would be procured from Auschwitz:

That one's your typo; the letter's dated June 21st.



HARRISON: Evidence of the gassing includes the "Bautagebuch" [building diary] shown here and Kramer's interrogation [here].

Let's be absolutely clear here; you've cited "Kramer's interrogation" (dated: July 26, 1945) and not "Kramer's deposition" (dated: December 6, 1945).

Therefore, I leave the final word to Jean-Claude Pressac (in a booklet you've just cited an online version of):

The way in which he [Kramer] gassed a number of people, as confessed by him on the 26 July 1945 to Major Jadin cannot be considered credible. He would have ended up gassing himself. (The Struthof Album, p.5)
In the context of the years 1945-1950, one can understand the deliberate selection of such a reply by a concentration camp commandant. But when 40 years later, historians, who should remain dispassionate, and who have an obligation to remove all ambiguity regarding the workings of the Struthof gas chamber, continue to reproduce Kramer’s first deposition, without any'explanation [sic], then one has every right to question their abilities and the historical value of their writings—especially if they still mention the tourist prattle of crematorium guides about a "vivisection" table and shower water for SS-men heated by the oven. (Ibid., p.10)
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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby hermod » 2 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:12 pm)

Where and when did the documents referring to gassings at Natzweiler (letters) emerge for the first time? I ask this question because no homicidal gassings were evoked when Sievers was being interrogated at Nuremberg. (Or did I just miss that?)

See here; http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/08-08-46.asp (from "Did you ever hear of Professor Hirt's skeleton collection?" to "I was not responsible for any action taken, nor could I prevent any action.")

I find it strange that prosecutors blaming a defeated country for alleged giant mass gassings wouldn't have used letters openly dealing with smaller homicidal gassings if such documents had been available to the prosecution team at that time.

Moreover "experiments on human beings in connection with the poison gas or poisoned chemical" were evoked during Sievers' interrogation. So why not talk about the alleged homicidal gassings at Natzweiler at that time??
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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 4 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:46 am)

hermod wrote:Where and when did the documents referring to gassings at Natzweiler (letters) emerge for the first time? I ask this question because no homicidal gassings were evoked when Sievers was being interrogated at Nuremberg. (Or did I just miss that?)


I just read through Sievers' actual interrogations transcripts at Nuremberg (not his examination in the court, which is what you linked above); there are a total of three interrogations, held on 29.08.45, 30.08.45 and 06.09.45. He was ask numerous questions about Prof. Hirt, and at one point Natzweiler is mentioned by Sievers, but at no point does the matter of Hirt's skeleton collection come up nor homicidal gassings; although there was mention of Hirt doing experiments on the effects of "Lost gas".

7.png



During his IMT testimony which you linked, 'Brandt to RSHA Nov 6, 1942' is mentioned, which is document NO 089, and it makes no mention of gassings, which suggests why Sievers wasn't asked about them by the British prosecutor Major F. Elwyn Jones.

Whether any of the other letters regarding the matter were also available to the IMT, I don't know, but the prosecution exhibit list for the NMT "Doctors' Trial" states that the documents relating to the Jewish skeleton collection were offered into evidence on December 18 or 19, 1946. Although Included in the list in NO 089, which we know was submitted by the British to the IMT on August 8, 1946 as GB-573.

7.png


On the face of it, it seems these letters were found probably in 1946.

If you read through Pressac's The Struthof Trial (online version here, see pp.69-73.), you'll see copies of numerous other documents that the French found at the camp. Copies of most of these were forwarded to Nuremberg in November 1946 with the covering certificate authored by the French detective chief Eugène Helffer.
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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 4 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:53 am)

J. Harrison replied to just parts of my comment quote above:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/natzweiler-gassing-victims-warning.html

J. Harrison wrote:Bilik's comment on Kramer, from the link in the article:

"however, we do not follow Pressac as to the fact that the second testimony would be more valid than the first, Kramer being disgusted by the lack of honor and the treason of his SS comrades who betrayed him by spilling the beans: it seems to us even more probable that Kramer willingly introduced at each time several less credible details to be able to pretend later that his sworn statements were forced.

Unfortunately for him, his statements match up so well in the essentials with other testimonies and the recovered documents, that the small differences do not suffice to entertain the least doubt on the truth of the matter."


And my response, pending approval:

BRoI wrote:I see that you choose to clip the first part of your quoted Bilik sentence, i.e. "It is evident that Kramer lies on several points to introduce doubt about the validity of his sworn statements;"

And a part you did quote:
"it seems to us even more probable that Kramer willingly introduced at each time several less credible details to be able to pretend later that his sworn statements were forced."

That's rather far fetched don't you think? Claiming Kramer threw in a few nuggets of disinformation, so that once a fee man, he'd be able to point them out—perhaps to early Holocaust deniers—as proof that he was tortured!

Why didn't he also use this tactic in his later confession r.e. Birkenau, do you believe, Harrison? Considering it was the same interrogator, Major Jadin, who was the man who finally got Kramer to admit to gassings at Birkenau.

Incidentally, I duly noted that you dodged all my questions in my original post. Here they are once again:

BRoI: And why is it, Harrison, that none of tattoo numbers of any of the other of the 16 (sometimes said to be 17) whole corpses found in Strasbourg AI are known? The caption for photo no. 13 in NO 807 states that the tattoos were removed only when the corpses were "defleshed".

Why were the tattoo numbers not recorded by Professor Camille Simonin, the man you claim carried out the autopsies?
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 2 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:38 pm)

Jonthan Harrison has updated his post on Natzweiler:

Update July 29th at 4.27pm EST in reply to BroI's comments of earlier the same day at this thread:

1) Upon closer reading, Pressac's claims about the 26.7.45 interrogation of Kramer may be based on an incomplete translation used by Pressac. Below is Lang's translation and reference of the key passage (from this article p.377). In infer that the part I have bolded below explains the precautions Kramer claims he took against self-asphyxiation. I don't claim that there are no discrepancies between this account and 6.12.45:
[Testimony of the Lagerkommandant Joseph Kramer – HHStA, Abt. 461, SB II, Nr. 10/2].

With the aid of several SS-men I completely undressed (the 15 women) and pushed them into the gas chamber. (. . .) When the doors closed, they began to scream. I (then) introduced a certain amount of salts into the room through a pipe that had been inserted to the right and above the peephole. Then I sealed the opening of the pipe with a cork which was attached to its end. This cork was equipped with a metal pipe. With this pipe the salt and water was thrown into the opening of the chamber (. . .). I illuminated the inside of the room (. . .) and observed (. . .) what was happening through the peephole. I saw that the women continued to breath for about half a minute before they fell to the floor. After I had turned on the ventilation within the chimney, I opened the door. I found the women lying lifeless on the floor [A.a.O.].


My awaiting approval comment:

JH: Upon closer reading, Pressac's claims about the 26.7.45 interrogation of Kramer may be based on an incomplete translation used by Pressac.

The interrogation transcript is in French. Pressac's native tongue! So you've made an amusing gaff.

See pages 72 + 73: http://www.holocaust-history.org/klarsf ... T072.shtml

My transcription of the segment you placed in bold and, bizarrely, believe Pressac hasn't seen:

"J'introduisis, après avoir fermé la porte, une certaine quantité de sel dans un entonnoir placé au dessous et à droite du regard. En même temps, je versai une certaine quantité d'eau qui, ainsi que les sels, tomba dans l'excavation située à l'interieur de la chambre à gaz au bas du regard. Puis, je fermai l'orifice de l'entonnoir à l'aide d'un robinet qui était adapté dans le bas de cet entonnoir, prolongé lui-même par un tube en métal. Ce tube en métal conduisit le sel et l'eau dans l'excavation intérieure de la chambre dont je viens de vous parler."

Jan Green-Krotki's translation with Pressac's bracketed note:

"I placed a fixed quantity of the salts in a funnel attached below and to the right of the peep-hole</i> [a glass covered observation aperture]<i>. At the same time, I poured in a fixed amount of water which flowed, together with the salts, into a pit made inside the gas chamber under the peep-hole. Then I closed the opening of the funnel by means of a tap, fitted into the bottom of the funnel, which ran into a metal pipe. This metal pipe took the salts and the water into the pit inside the gas chamber,"
http://www.holocaust-history.org/klarsf ... T031.shtml

Lang's translation (according to you):

"I (then) introduced a certain amount of salts into the room through a pipe that had been inserted to the right and above the peephole. Then I sealed the opening of the pipe with a cork which was attached to its end. This cork was equipped with a metal pipe. With this pipe the salt and water was thrown into the opening of the chamber [...]."

(whose ellipses are they in the quoted Lang text, yours or Lang's?)

Despite the variations, Lang was obviously translating the same text as Pressac used. I don't speak French so I won't comment on the translations or judge whose is the more accurate. But I have shown that your gambit about Pressac's using an "incomplete translation" is complete rubbish.


Perhaps one of the French speaking posters here would be good enough to offer their opinion on Green-Krotki and Lang's translations, as to which is the more accurate.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: Remains of Nazi victims found. Inc. gas chamber victim

Postby Review » 2 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:43 am)

If these newly "discovered" gassings in French city of Strasbourg were true, why aren't they being pushed in every western news outlet (often heavily dominated by zionist jews) ?

A bit off-topic: to me this sounds like the soap story from Gdansk (Poland) anatomy institute were this german professor (Spanner, IIRC) allegedly cooked soap out of corpses from POW camps. That story changes every time somebody tells it; sometimes it was jewish corpses, sometimes it was soap bars that he made, sometimes a liquid cleaning agent, sometimes it was a one-time experiment, sometimes industrial etc.


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