The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

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borjastick
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The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby borjastick » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:06 am)

I recently watched Nick Kollerstrom's speech given to the Truth Juice Hull group.

Here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WElFNw-67Hk

and here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCkaJnAmEh4

Full praise should be given to Nick for doing this. It's an entertaining watch and punctuated with his brilliant wit and humour. However, I digress, as this thread is about one element which he discusses in the talk. That of diesel fume lethality.

I was discussing the general topic of governments and large and powerful interest groups lying to the masses, with a friend of mine who is reasonably famous in his own field. He has a double first from Cambridge and is a leading science based engineer. He is a holocaust believer so you can imagine we have had some fairly sparky debates over the years.

I asked him to watch the Nick Kollerstrom youtube vids and give me his thoughts.

He basically took me to task over the science that diesel doesn't kill. He says it does and used this link as one example of the science that proves it - http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leu ... aq-19.html

One of their main claims is this
In a closed chamber, of course diesel fumes will kill. There was actually a study on this, and its results are reported in "The Toxicity of Fumes from a diesel Engine Under Four Different Running Conditions", by Prattle et al., British Journal of Industrial Medicine, 1957, Vol 14, p. 47-55. These researchers ran a few experiments in which various animals were exposed to diesel fumes, and studied the results.

In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine (568 cc, 6 BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic feet) in volume, and the animals were put inside it. In all cases, the animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine was restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of carbon monoxide (CO) that is emitted. (See, for instance, Diesel Engine Reference Book, by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is only a few parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the concentration of CO can rise up to 3,000 ppm. It is very easy to restrict the air intake - the British researchers did so by partially covering the air intake opening with a piece of metal.)

Even in cases where the CO output was low, the animals still died from other toxic components - mainly irritants and nitrogen dioxide.


Without reading through the whole of the sticky thread concerning the toxicity of Auschwitz on the home page here I wonder what people think of this Nizkor claim. I am not commenting on the wider claims of T34 engines etc that haven't been found or even proven to have been there or the missing bodies and gas chambers, as I think we should stick just to the diesel toxicity claim.
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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:46 am)

By a strange coincidence I've just a few minutes ago been looking over an old thread on another site where i covered this very topic with someone who brought up exactly this argument. He must have been to Nizkor, too.

Well, 3000 ppm is 0.3%. If you wanted to kill people using CO which would you not chose:
- diesel exhaust almost none to Max 0.3%, (but only by running it under stress conditions that would damage the engine)?
- petrol exhaust 7% under normal running?
- wood gas 35%?
- bottled CO 100%?

The rest is just clutching at straws. Has anyone seriously suggested that the other pollutants in exhaust gas such as NO2 are a reliable method of committing mass murder?

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:33 am)

I would've thought that Nizkor might've put a disclaimer at least on that article by now, considering that the authoritative Neue Studien zu nationalsozialistischen Massentötungen durch Giftgas has chucked the diesel engines of Treblinka and Belzec into the rubbish bin of Holocaust historiography, and decreed that that petrol engines were used for all the gas chambers in the AR camps.

F. P. Berg published a response to that Nizkor article and the cited piece from the British Journal of Industrial Medicine.
http://www.nazigassings.com/nizkorlies.html
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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby borjastick » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:00 am)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:I would've thought that Nizkor might've put a disclaimer at least on that article by now, considering that the authoritative Neue Studien zu nationalsozialistischen Massentötungen durch Giftgas has chucked the diesel engines of Treblinka and Belzec into the rubbish bin of Holocaust historiography, and decreed that that petrol engines were used for all the gas chambers in the AR camps.

F. P. Berg published a response to that Nizkor article and the cited piece from the British Journal of Industrial Medicine.
http://www.nazigassings.com/nizkorlies.html


I have just spent half an hour googling the way Treblinka operated and killed jews and not one of the top four web sites mentions diesel or petrol, just saying 'gassed'. Seems the story evolves as science, logic and evidence catches them out.
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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:38 am)

borjastick wrote:I have just spent half an hour googling the way Treblinka operated and killed jews and not one of the top four web sites mentions diesel or petrol, just saying 'gassed'. Seems the story evolves as science, logic and evidence catches them out.


There'll probably be an English translation of the Neue Studien published within the next few years, considering how important it is. But in the meantime you can read Mattogno's response to it which has been translated into English.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/25-itgc.pdf

On page 25, Mattogno quotes Achim Trunk as having written in the Neue Studien :

... serious research does not believe at all that diesel engines were generally used at the ‘Aktion Reinhardt’ extermination camps.


borjastick wrote:Seems the story evolves as science, logic and evidence catches them out.


It took them over 60 years to finally decide that diesel wasn't used in AR, and they now insist (if pushed) that the numerous witnesses who claimed that it was diesel were all mistaken, or confused the camps' generator engines with the gassing ones. Due to the enormous number of studies that claim it was diesel, we'll no doubt continue to see the diesel claim being parroted for many years to come.
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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby borjastick » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:15 pm)

It took them over 60 years to finally decide that diesel wasn't used in AR, and they now insist (if pushed) that the numerous witnesses who claimed that it was diesel were all mistaken, or confused the camps' generator engines with the gassing ones. Due to the enormous number of studies that claim it was diesel, we'll no doubt continue to see the diesel claim being parroted for many years to come.

-Black Rabbit

What you are saying is that as they have been found out by science that diesel couldn't have been used they change the story to gasoline to fit the end result required. Was the T34 ever produced as a gasoline engine?

I have read the web page by Fritz Berg on the lies of the Nizkor report http://www.nazigassings.com/nizkorlies.html which clearly shows that five hours' gassing time at the very least would be required x 800,000 = 4 million hours or 166,000 days or... should I go on?

I sent my friend the link to Fritz's page. I await his reply.
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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:36 pm)

borjastick wrote:-Black Rabbit

What you are saying is that as they have been found out by science that diesel couldn't have been used they change the story to gasoline to fit the end result required.


Well, that's not what I said, but it seems a fair, if speculative, commentary on events. Although they would vehemently deny it, and claim it was down to more in-depth research or such.

Kingfisher made a good post related to this last year:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8543

borjastick wrote:Was the T34 ever produced as a gasoline engine?


Tanks and engines aren't my thing, but HC have cited some sources which they claim proves there were T34s with petrol engines.

because of shortage of V-2 diesels in the autumn of 1941 it was ordered to implement the ways to install old carburettor engines M17-T in T-34 tanks, which had been done on a limited scale.[33]

33. I. Shmelyov, ‘Tank T-34’, Tekhnika i vooruzhenije, no. 11-12, 1998. Another author confirms that some T-34s had M-17, a powerful aviation motor, installed, see E. Zubov, Dvigateli tankov (iz istorii tankostrojenija), 1991.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/belzec-sobibor-treblinka-holocaust_9432.html#_ftnref33
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Hannover » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:57 pm)

because of shortage of V-2 diesels in the autumn of 1941 it was ordered to implement the ways to install old carburettor engines M17-T in T-34 tanks, which had been done on a limited scale.[33]

33. I. Shmelyov, ‘Tank T-34’, Tekhnika i vooruzhenije, no. 11-12, 1998. Another author confirms that some T-34s had M-17, a powerful aviation motor, installed, see E. Zubov, Dvigateli tankov (iz istorii tankostrojenija), 1991.

More desperate nonsense from those that believe in the impossible.

The M-17T engine was a licensed copy of the German BMW VI v12 liquid cooled, piston driven aircraft engine.

So why drag them out of damaged / captured Soviet tanks with such manpower expense and lengthy, costly transport times to 'extermination camps' in Poland when they were readily available in Germany, where 9,200 were built ... in Germany.

Again, another dog that don't hunt.

see:
'T-34: The Red Army's Legendary Medium Tank', by Anthony Tucker-Jones
https://books.google.com/books?id=8i1wB ... 34&f=false

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And as recommended, be sure to read:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8543

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Hektor » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:16 pm)

I read something on a study about this. Apparently you can use diesel exhaust to kill animals (mammals), if you torture the engine enough. But it takes hours. This was always considered in serious revisionist arguments. So attempts to spin it are another attempt at deceiving the audience with a red herring.

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby hermod » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:24 pm)

Still doesn't explain why the Nazis didn't use very lethal and common wood gas generators to mass murder people in gas chambers surrounded by woods. :roll:

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German safety poster of 1943
Attention – carbon monoxide – Danger of Poisoning!
Do not start the generator except in the open or else vent gases to the outdoors! Do not refill in enclosed spaces.”
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Atigun » 5 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:08 pm)

Nizkor states, "In all cases, the animals died." Since all of the experimental animals were sacrificed for necropsy, I suppose that it could be considered a true statement to say that "all of the animals died." Nizkor just...er...forgot to add that qualification.

Yes, the Soviets apparently did power some of their tanks with the gasoline M-17 engine. However, if it was used as the source of CO, we run into an enhanced problem of the Neumaier effect. At a displacement of 49.6 liters, the M-17 was even larger than the V-2 diesel engine. At a low idle speed of 600 rpm, the M-17 would expel 14.9 cubic meters of exhaust gasses per minute. Each individual room of the original three room gas chamber measured 5X5X1.9 meters for a total volume of 142.5 cubic meters for the empty gas chamber. Clearly, the V-2 would have raised the pressure inside the three rooms by 1 atm (atmosphere) in less than ten (10) minutes. Backpressure would have stalled the engine in less than 5 minutes even with an empty gas chamber and a minimum idle speed. One atm would be more than sufficient to collapse the building so even if the engine could theoretically operate under high backpressure conditions, the building would have collapsed in far less than the 25 minutes that Wiernik said that it took to kill all of the victims.

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:44 am)

Atigun

Playing Devil's Advocate: although I raised the back pressure argument, as one of the witnesses had said that the chamber was sealed, there is no reason for this and there is plenty of history of suicides in enclosed but not sealed garages.

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Atigun » 5 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:34 am)

Wiernik, Rajchman, Arad, et al. all agree that that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed after being filled with victims. There might be others who contradict that but I haven't ran across them. As far as suicides, I don't know of any committed with diesel exhaust. Fritz mentions one case of a driver of a diesel rig dying from CO but there was no definite proof that the CO came from the rigs diesel engine. From personal experience I can tell you that many of the exhausts on the old COE (Cab Over Engine) tractors leaked so badly that the stench could drive you out of the sleeper but I never heard of anyone dying from it. Damn sure heard lots of complaints and threats to "pull the pin" (quit) if the exhaust system wasn't repaired.

I looked up the maximum backpressure for diesel engines up to 1,000 kw (1,340 hp) of power from such manufacturers as Caterpillar, Cummins, John Deere et al. and found that 7 to 20 kPa was the maximum allowable BP before the warranty was voided. Curiously, the smaller engines could withstand more BP. If we assume that the 500 hp V-2 (373 kw) could withstand 10 kPa of BP before incurring damage, and that 25 minutes of operation would result in 2 atm of pressure inside the hermetically sealed gas chamber, we see that the BP would exceed manufacturers recommended maximum by 186 kPa. Of course the brick gas chamber could never withstand 2 atm of pressure nor would the engine continue to run under 186 kPa (28.4 psi) of BP.

My point is that the official narrative of the the lethal diesel gas chambers is too ridiculous to withstand any scrutiny whatsoever. It simply runs head on into too many impossibilities.

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:34 am)

Atigun

Of course I agree diesel exhaust is out of the question. I was thinking of suicides with petrol engines. I don't know about the record on the chambers being sealed but I'm happy to take your word on it. If all the witnesses do talk of sealed chambers then that would fit with the stories being invented. It's the sort of thing that seems superficially credible but doesn't stand up to examination.

I seem to recall there is one case I read of somewhere of alleged suicide with diesel exhaust but the fact it is a single isolated case is enough to disregard it.

My point was that we can't exclude petrol engines on purely theoretical grounds as long as the structures were sufficiently leaky to avoid excessive back pressure.

I think we are all in agreement though that the probable origin of the myth is the stationary engines used to generate electric power.

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Re: The Toxicity Of Diesel Fumes

Postby Atigun » 5 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:36 pm)

All the he say/she say over engines as the source of CO begs the question of why would the Germans resort to such Rube Goldberg contraptions when they had literally hundreds of thousands of CO generators that really would kill people inside a closed and sealed room in 30 minutes or less. Neither does it explain all of the other claims of murder methods for Treblinka. Steam chambers, vacuum chambers and more. It almost seems as though the alleged eyewitnesses were in a contest to see who could come up with the most fanciful and unbelievable means to commit wholesale murder.


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