Treblinka - Central Commission found massive gravesite...

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Treblinka - Central Commission found massive gravesite...

Postby David » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:56 am)

What are revisionist thoughts on the fact that the Central Commission found a massive gravesite as stated in the following question?:

"How many whole bodies, and how many bodies reduced to ashes and other partial remains, fit into pits 7.5 meters deep (the depth to which ashes, bone fragments and other human remains were found by an excavation team) in the burial area more than 20,000 square meters long and wide that was found after the war by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland? Was there room enough for, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government taken to Treblinka until 31.12.1942, according to Höfle's report to Heim of 11 January 1943, or was there not?"

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:38 pm)

If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:49 pm)

Treblinka debunked via Ground Penetrating Radar

At Treblinka it's alleged there exists the remains of a vast pit in which ca. 900,000 Jews were allegedly buried, exhumed, then burned above ground....the pit was alleged to have been filled in. However, Ground Penetrating Radar scans have revealed that no such pit ever existed, period. It's my recent understanding that a book is forthcoming - www.vho.org - which will include other alleged 'death camps'. I've put together some information for our readers.

- Hannover

on Ground Penetrating Radar functionality:
http://www.geomodel.com/grave/
http://www.groundpenetratingradar.com/

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Treblink ... dscan.html
Irving's site:
"a Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) scan of the alleged mass grave site at Treblinka, Poland, conducted to a depth of eighteen feet by an expert in November 1999: it seems the ground has remained undisturbed for millions of years. Clever old Nazis, in panic of defeat, managed to put back every stone exactly in place."

more detailed report...in German, see link:
http://vho.org/VffG/2000/1/Krege62-64.html

from the mainstream press -
'The Canberra Times' and 'The Examiner':


- Science, harmful to Holocaust-Industry -

Monday January 24, 2000, page 6:

'No Jewish mass grave' in Poland

ADELAIDE: An Australian Holocaust revisionist claims he has proof a mass grave never existed at Treblinka in Poland.

Data collected during a week at Treblinka. using ground penetrating radar, found no soil disturbance consistent with 870,000 Jews having been buried there.
Richard Krege, 30, of Canberra, said data collected during a week at Treblinka. using ground penetrating radar, found no soil disturbance consistent with 870,000 Jews having been buried there. 'Historians say that the bodies were exhumed and cremated towards the end of the Treblinka camp's use in 1943. but we found no indication that any mass graves ever existed," he said. 'Personally, I don't think there was a [death]-camp there at all.' Mr Krege, who will address a public meeting in Adelaide tonight at the start of an eight-day tour, said he had gone to Poland in October last year to "find the truth". A qualified electronics engineer, he is an associate of the Adelaide Institute run by German-born revisionist Dr Fredrick Toben, whom he is accompanying on the tour.
Mr Krege said he would like to see an international group formed, possibly under the auspices of the United Nations, to use ground penetrating radar at all concentration camps in Europe. He said he was in the process of having other experts review the data he collected, but was confident that they would also conclude the mass burial did not happen.
The young Australian-born man admitted that he expected to be labelled a racist and anti-Semitic.

Monday January 24, 2000, page 17:

- Poland's Jews 'not buried at Treblinka' -

ADELAIDE - An Australian Holocaust revisionist claims he has proof a mass grave never existed a Treblinka in Poland.

Richard Krege, 30, of Canberra said that data collected during a week at Treblinka, using ground penetrating radar, found no soil disturbance consistent with 870,000 Jews having been buried there. "Historians say that the bodies were exhumed and cremated towards the end of the Treblinka camp's use in 1943, but we found no indication that any mass graves ever existed," Mr Krege said "Personally, I don't think there was a [death]-camp there at all."
Mr Krege who will address a public meeting in Adelaide tomorrow night as the start of an eight-day national tour, said he had gone to Poland in October last year to find the truth".

A qualified electronics engineer, he is an associate of the Adelaide Institute run by German-born revisionist Dr Fredrick Toben whom he is accompanying on the tour.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:53 pm)

Here's more on the GPR investigations, where science prevails over propaganda, superstition, and wishful thinking.

- Hannover

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20_radar.html

Journal of Historical Review | Volume 19, number 3 (May/June)

Treblinka Ground Radar Examination Finds No Trace of Mass Graves

A detailed forensic examination of the site of the wartime Treblinka camp, using sophisticated electronic ground radar, has found no evidence of mass graves there.

For six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.

According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), for example, "a total of 870,000 people" were killed and buried at Treblinka between July 1942 and April 1943. Then, between April and July 1943, the hundreds of thousands of corpses were allegedly dug up and burned in batches of 2,000 or 2,500 on large grids made of railway ties.

Krege's team used an $80,000 Ground Penetration Radar (GPR) device, which sends out vertical radar signals that are visible on a computer monitor. GPR detects any large-scale disturbances in the soil structure to a normal effective depth of four or five meters, and sometimes up to ten meters. (GPR devices are routinely used around the world by geologists, archeologists, and police.)

In its Treblinka investigation, Krege's team also carried out visual soil inspections, and used an auger to take numerous soil core samples. The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed.

In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes. "From these scans we could clearly identify the largely undisturbed horizontal stratigraphic layering, better known as horizons, of the soil under the camp site," says the 30-year old Krege, who lives in Canberra. "We know from scans of grave sites, and other sites with known soil disturbances, such as quarries, when this natural layering is massively disrupted or missing altogether." Because normal geological processes are very slow acting, disruption of the soil structure would have been detectable even after 60 years, Krege noted.

While his initial investigation suggests that there were never any mass graves at the Treblinka camp site, Krege believes that further work is still called for. "Historians say that the bodies were exhumed and cremated towards the end of the Treblinka camp's use in 1943, but we found no indication that any mass graves ever existed," he says. "Personally, I don't think there was an extermination camp there at all."

Krege is preparing a detailed report on his Treblinka investigation. He says that he would welcome the formation, possibly under United Nations auspices, of an international team of neutral, qualified specialists, to carry out similar investigations at the sites of all the wartime German camps.

Krege and his team are associated with, and funded by, the Adelaide Institute, a south Australia revisionist "think tank." Its director, Dr. Fredrick Toben, was jailed in Germany for seven months in 1999 for disputing Holocaust extermination claims.

(Sources: "'Vernichtungslager' Treblinka: archaelogisch betrachtet," by Ing. Richard Krege, in Vierteljarhreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung, June 2000 [4. Jg., Heft 1], pp. 62-64; "'No Jewish mass grave' in Poland," The Canberra Times, Jan. 24, 2000, p. 6; "Poland's Jews 'not buried at Treblinka'," The Examiner [Australia], Jan. 24, 2000. [The latter two newspaper items are reprinted in facsimile in VHO-info, May 2000, p. 30.]; Information provided by Richard Krege; M. Weber and A. Allen, "Treblinka," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1992, pp. 133-158; "German Court Sentences Australian Holocaust Skeptic," The Journal of Historical Review, July-August 1999, pp. 2-5; Y. Arad, "Treblinka," in I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia of the Holocaust [New York: 1997], pp. 1481-1488.)
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Potyondi » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:37 pm)

Hannover wrote:Treblinka debunked via Ground Penetrating Radar

Oh? I find it particularly ironic that the IHR ran a story on Krege, but not before running this one:

The Institute for Historical Review wrote:In spite of its often inconsistent, contradictory and implausible character, testimony indicating that many Jews lost their lives at Treblinka cannot easily be dismissed. Many Jewish prisoners doubtless perished during their rail journey to the camp site, and were almost certainly buried there. Furthermore, it is plausible and even likely that hundreds and perhaps thousands of Jews who were too weak or ill to continue the eastbound journey from the camp were killed there by officials acting on their own authority.


From: http://ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p133_Allen.html

Whoops.

Thus, even according to Revisionists, there obviously were at least some corpses at Treblinka, and which were surely buried there, given its utter remoteness. Yet these were not found by Krege, for some bizarre inexplicable reason. Perhaps this might be ascribed to the supposed ‘relative infrequency’ of such killings and deaths on trains, but another document, although it contains no numbers, gives us an idea of the amount of dead bodies that there must have been at Treblinka. It is the remark of the Wehrmacht commander of Ostrow recorded in the Kriegstagebuch Nr. 1 of the General Quarter Master of the Military Commander in the General Government on 24 October 1942:

Image
Image

It states: "OK Ostrow meldet, dass die Juden in Treblinka nicht ausreichend beerdigt seien und infolgedessen ein unerträglicher Kadavergeruch die Luft verpestet"

Translated: "Supreme Command Ostrow informs that the Jews in Treblinka are not adequately buried and that, as a result, an unbearable body stench befouls the air."

Ostrow, it should be noted, was some 20 kilometres from Treblinka. How many insufficiently buried dead bodies would be required to create such an ecological problem that the stench could be detected 20 kilometres away? Perhaps Krege, being a scientific expert, can give us an estimate.

And yet "Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes" in spite of the fact that "[t]he team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged 'mass graves' portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area."

Trouble in Revisionist paradise? :shock:

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:54 am)

No trouble at all, Krege's much more recent work has rendered Allen's musings obsolete. That's what Revisionists do, we revise as new information becomes available.

Allen cautiously states the absurd standard communist sources, which have not born out any physical evidence, and have been shown to be frauds. As a prudent measure he allowed the possibility for human remains. We now know that whatever few human remains that may possibly exist, they do not exist in the alleged area of the alleged pit for 900,000 absurdly claimed diesel gassed Jews. There was a war on and disease was a problem, but 'extermination camp'? No way. No evidence.

But let's wait, maybe Potyondi can show us the human remains he claims at Treblinka. Let's start with this standard storyline which claims 900,000 Jews in that alleged massive pit (we're talking massive). Can we see them? Nope. Can we see the proof of the pit? Nope.

I suggest Potyondi actually read the standard story alleged about Treblinka. The story shoots itself in the foot. Hey, they claim it, we debunk it.

The claimed 'diary' entry is interesting. While the first page of standard diary issue is handwritten, I see that an alleged following page has curiously been typed. Right, men in the field typed their diaries. I also see no reason to believe that the 2 pages even belong together. Simply take a legit front page and then type a bogus second one. Presto! A 'holocaust' document.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:28 am)

The allegation that there is no grave sites at the camp just points out that there are obvious errors in the testing methods. How could a camp hold so many and not have ANY grave sites?

If he could miss any graves, why could he not miss the mass grave?

Is there any scientific evidence, articles, etc. which discuss how effective this GPR is for locating graves that are over 50 years old?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:05 am)

Trojan asks:
How could a camp hold so many and not have ANY grave sites?

The allegation that there is no grave sites at the camp ....

No one said there were no graves. No strawman arguments, please. Allen includes this as a possibility (as I said), and I said, again:
We now know that whatever few human remains that may possibly exist, they do not exist in the alleged area of the alleged pit for 900,000 absurdly claimed diesel gassed Jews. There was a war on and disease was a problem, but 'extermination camp'? No way. No evidence.

If there are any graves then they are certainly outside the area that Krege searched, and Krege searched the areas in accord with the 'eyewitness' stories and alleged 'eyewitness' maps of the area. Are these offical 'eyewitnesses' lying?

My challenge to Trojan and Potyondi:
Please show us the evidence for a pit that allegedly contained 900,000 Jews.

GPR has been used to find archaeological and grave sites the world over, see:

http://www.geomodel.com/grave/
http://www.groundpenetratingradar.com/
http://www.du.edu/~lconyer/
http://www.g-p-r.com/
http://wwwtg.mp.tudelft.nl/~jvdkruk/

or any of dozens of other sites that can be pulled up by a Google search for "ground penetrating radar."

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:45 am)

Trojan,
Please do not attempt to put words in Hannover's mouth again. He has explained that Krege searched alleged mass grave areas, as specificed by alleged eyewitnesses, and nothing was found. He has also challenged you for evidence of an alleged pit that supposedly held 900,000 Jews.

Please read the guidelines.

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Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:18 pm)

Trojan and Potyondi, in essence, assert:

Because the claimed mass graves have never been found proves that the claims as alleged are true.

Yikes! 'holocaust' Logic 101

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator2 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:27 pm)

Trojan,

Your posting here has been deleted for your abusive language. Please try to debate instead. Your postings will never see the light with that tone and language.

And for your information, here is how it works at this forum:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=775#775

So simply RTFM!

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Postby Trojan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:27 pm)

"So simply RTFM! "

Why are revisionist afraid to debate on a level playing field? To grant Hannover or any other poster free reign to post as will, while censoring the posts of those oppossed to your beliefs is a travesity and flies in the face of your own stated mission.


Is there even one "believer" that has been granted the freedom to post uncensored like Hannover is? Just one?

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Postby Moderator2 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:17 pm)

Trojan,

It's very simple to understand it. If you do personal attacks, your post doesn't show up. Is that so hard to understand?

Why are other postings showing up? They don't attack any person. In your case you are hitting against a certain poster, and this is not acceptable. He is a regular poster here, not an Admin.

Is there even one "believer" that has been granted the freedom to post uncensored like Hannover is? Just one?


Can you name one that hasn't spammed us?

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Postby David » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:13 am)

In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.


Krege obviously did not search the whole area. If he did, he would have found some remains. Hannover forgets eyewitness testimony is not 100% accurate.


D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:47 am)

David said:
Krege obviously did not search the whole area. If he did, he would have found some remains. Hannover forgets eyewitness testimony is not 100% accurate.

Let me add David's name to this 'holocaust' Logic 101 class:
Trojan and Potyondi, in essence, assert:

Because the claimed mass graves have never been found proves that the claims as alleged are true.

Why should he have found some remains in the camp? Any disease victims would certainly have been buried outside the camp; typhus is highly contagious.

David apparently doesn't know the story of Treblinka. He says 'testimony is not 100% accurate'. Problems:

- Krege covered all the alleged mass graves areas as claimed by 'eyewitnesses'. He covered the ENTIRE camp. The so called 'eyewitnesses' do not claim their phantom mass graves were outside the camp.

- Krege used MAPS produced by these same so called 'eyewitnesses' and again; zippo, nada.

- The story says that 900,000 Jews were buried in a mass grave; that would be impossible to miss. Imagine the Rose Bowl filled to capacity X 10, but yet David, Trojan, and Potyondi think that Krege just happened to miss this pit area .... even though Krege simply followed the claims of fraudulent 'eyewitnesses'.

The story itself is the problem, Revisionists are just the messengers.

I challenge David, Trojan, and Potyondi to produce their claimed mass grave that supposedly held 900,000 Jews. They can't and surely know that Krege's work is lethal to the 'holocau$t' story.

A reminder; Krege's soon to be released book examines the Reinhardt Camps; Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec. The Believers' headaches have only just begun.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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