The 'Turner Letter'.

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The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby neugierig » 4 years 1 day ago (Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:15 pm)

Nessie, and we all love him, at the other forum posted the “Turner Letter”.
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2282

Rollo the Ganger asked me about the quotation marks used in it, I read the letter and found it wanting, big time. The first thing I noticed is that the writer was obviously not sure as to when to use the letter “ß”. This is a bid tricky, but no mistake can be made when writing “ dass das” after a comma, it is always “daß das”. The writer however repetitively has it wrong. Then there are the quotation marks used for “Entlausungswagen” (delousing van), in German the first mark is at the bottom, thusly: „Entlausungswagen“. There are also other, ahem, irregularities, I have yet to carefully read it.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Wilf

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Hannover » 4 years 23 hours ago (Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:46 pm)

The so called "Turner Letter" is phony as a three dollar bill and easily shown as such.

This moronic forgery been taken care at this forum,
see:
viewtopic.php?p=66095#p66095

Nessie has reached a new high in desperation.
See him further demolished here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7157
and:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8814

This is too easy.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby neugierig » 4 years 9 hours ago (Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:14 pm)

Hannover, this is all well and good, but the issue is the letter itself. I am sure Thomas did an excellent job, as always, but did he address the spelling/grammar problems in the letter? I know that some Revisionists shy away from the “f” word, “forgery”, why I don’t know. Messrs. Bohlinger/Ney demonstrated that the Wannsee minutes are a forgery, writing that:

“Das jüdische DP-Lager Föhrenwald-Wolfratshausen, 20 km von München entfernt gelegen, beherberte die größten Dokumentenfälscher- und Fotomontage-Ateliers im besetzten Deutschland“.
(Roughly: The Jewish DP-Camp Föhrenwald-Wolfratshausen, 20km from Munich, housed the biggest document forgery- and photo editing shop in occupied Germany).

A lot of German Jews had fled Germany, many ending up in the US. They returned after the war, thirsting for revenge. Then of course there were the Jewish ‘survivors’, also eager to do their part in demonizing Germans. Every document presented has to be suspect, unless the established rules had been followed, i.e., who found it, where was it found, who witnessed it and has it been looked at by independent experts?

Anyway, this Turner letter is almost certainly a forgery.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Hannover » 4 years 7 hours ago (Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:26 pm)

neugierig says:
Hannover, this is all well and good, but the issue is the letter itself. I am sure Thomas did an excellent job, as always, but did he address the spelling/grammar problems in the letter?

You need to read the 1st link I posted, within it see Werd's post of Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:49.

Here is an excerpt from Alvarez's work quoted by Werd:
2.2.7.1. Problematic Content

- The first four paragraphs describe an event with many words without
even once stating what this is all about. What makes the author think
that the recipient knew what he was writing about? As far as I could
verify, there is no historical event - some decision in favor of Turner
and against some ominous "Wehrmacht" interests - which would
warrant such sentences. As a matter of fact, there had only been a
decision against Turner, whose attempt to gain Serbian support for
his occupational policies led to deteriorating relations between him
and his SS men, not the Wehrmacht. As a result of SS claims that
Turner was too soft on the Serbs, the anti-Serbian hardliner August
Meyzner was appointed as head of the local SS units in early 1942,
which seriously undermined Turner's position (Browning 1995, pp.
134-136; Manoschek 1995, p. 170).

- The letter insinuates that this ominous foiled Wehrmacht intrigue
was directed not only against Himmler (whose title was Reichs-
fiihrer SS, not SS-Fuhrer) and the SS, but also the "corps of civil
servants" (Beamtenschaft), which means all of Germany's civil
servants. Such a Wehrmacht intrigue potentially affecting millions
of German civil servants sounds far-fetched to the point of being
outrageous, and I could not find anything in the literature confirming
this.

- The attachment mentioned in the letter is unknown. The letter insin-
uates that it might have dealt with some pressing issues about Jews
in Serbia. At any rate, the writer takes this attached letter as a reason
to jump right into the middle of a completely different topic.


89
- After having dealt with the clearing out of "the camp" (this refers to
the Semlin camp near Belgrade), the author suddenly changes tack,
as he is now worried about the attitude of "Jewish officers" held as
PoW, if they find out about that clearing. The author speaks again of
"the camp" in singular, although there were many PoW camps in
Germany and the German occupied territories. It is also inconceiva-
ble why those (relatively few) Jewish officers could have "easily"
caused "complications." And even if so, who would have cared,
since Jews are said to have been expendable anyhow?

- "repercussions on our prisoners in Canada": even though some
German soldiers were held in Canadian PoW camps, the vast majori-
ty of German PoW camps in early 1 942 were located in Britain and
the U.S. In addition, if the Germans had to worry about any of their
PoW in Allied hands, it would have been primarily about those in
Soviet hands. The Canadians were the smallest players in that game.
It is therefore beyond comprehension why Turner should have men-
tioned them. Unless, of course, the author of this letter was Canadi-
an.

2.2.7.2. Problematic Language

- "mochte ich nicht verfehlen" - probably literal translation from Eng-
lish "I don't want to fail"; correct German would be: "mochte ich
nicht versdumen."

- "meinen [...] Dank [...] zu iibermitteln" - correct German: "meinen
Dank auzusprechen"; "ubermitteln" means to convey thanks from a
third person.

- "I can also again today, the more so since you know me well
enough, only once more repeat" - a very circuitous way of saying
nothing.

- "Ich mochte nicht erinnern" - English "I don't want to remind"; in-
complete phrase; correct German: "Ich mochte ihn nicht daran erin-
nern" or "Ich mochte dies nicht anmahnen." The sentence basically
makes the same statement twice: "I don't want to remind, because
[. . .] I don't feel entitled to remind."

- "was allerdings weitergefiihrt worden isf - English: "which, how-
ever, was continued." The "allerdings" (however) indicates a con-
tradiction, but there is none here.

- "Dann ist der Augenblick gekommen, in dem die [...]jiidischen Offi-
ziere [...] hinter die nicht mehr vorhandenen Angehorigen kommen"



90
- English: "Then the moment has come in which the Jewish officers
[. . .] get behind the no longer existing relatives"; the German expres-
sion "dahinter kommen" (to find out about, to get to the bottom of)
cannot be used with a mere "hinter" in addition the entire sentence
structure is wrong; correct is: "Dann ist der Augenblick gekommen,
in dem die [. . .] jiidischen Offiziere [...] dahinterkommen, dafi die
Angehorigen nicht mehr vorhanden sind." In the way used here this
expression has a spatial meaning: to get behind something or some-
body.

- "das diirfte immerhin leicht zu Komplikationen ftihren" — English:
"that could after all easily lead to complications"; the "after all" here
makes neither sense in German nor in English.

- "Werden nun die Betreffenden entlassen [...] nicht allzu lange" —
English: "When those affected [Jewish officers] are being released,
they would in the moment of arrival have their final freedom, but
like their racial comrades not for very long": What is "in the moment
of arrival" supposed to mean? The arrival moment of their freedom?
If so, then this translates to: when freed, they are free at the moment
when they are free, but not for long. . .

Considering the bad usage of the German language, the question
arises whether this was Turner's normal style. Friedlander/Milton have
reproduced two more of Turner's letters. 56 Both letters exhibit a perfect-
ly normal usage of the German language. Although Turner had at times
the tendency to write complex phrases, they are grammatically correct,
consistent, and make sense, quite in contrast to the letter at issue here.

2.2.7.3. Spelling and Punctuation

Most German words requiring an "B" are misspelled with an "ss"
(wrong: dass, weiss, erschiessen, Griisseri), although a few are spelled
properly. Commas are set erratically, and spaces between words and pe-
riods, commas, hyphens, and quotation marks are inconsistent. "Cana-
da" is spelled the English way, not as the German "Kanada." ...


Childishly contrive content easily debunked, it purports to say:
Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp..."
So where are the necessary enormous mass graves to excavate, view, and verify?
Why use a 'delousing van' when it would have been cheaper and quicker to just shoot them?
Why don't other writings of Dr. Turner exhibit the same embarrassing grammar and punctuation?

The forged letter:
Image
Image
Image

The ridiculous 'gas vans' further demolished here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8534
NEWS! magazine & Wiesenthal Ctr. caught faking 'gas vans'!
and:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8251
Graf debunks the laughable 'gas vans'
and:
viewtopic.php?t=7
phony gas vans / J. McCarthy & 'holocaust' Hist. Proj.

Again, just too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Hektor » 4 years 7 hours ago (Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:19 pm)

Hannover wrote:...
Why use a 'delousing van' when it would have been cheaper and quicker to just shoot them?
Why don't other writings of Dr. Turner exhibit the same embarrassing grammar and punctuation?
...

Especially that he did have a Dr title (phd) unthinkable that a person of such caliber would make mistakes like that in a letter to another highranking figure in Germany (Wolff).

I also noticed that the SS-Runes have been drawn in and do not come from the typewriter itself.

[enlarge page 1 below, M1]
Image

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Bob » 4 years 4 hours ago (Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:59 pm)

neugierig wrote:Nessie, and we all love him, at the other forum posted the “Turner Letter”.
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2282

Rollo the Ganger asked me about the quotation marks used in it, I read the letter and found it wanting, big time. The first thing I noticed is that the writer was obviously not sure as to when to use the letter “ß”. This is a bid tricky, but no mistake can be made when writing “ dass das” after a comma, it is always “daß das”. The writer however repetitively has it wrong. Then there are the quotation marks used for “Entlausungswagen” (delousing van), in German the first mark is at the bottom, thusly: „Entlausungswagen“. There are also other, ahem, irregularities, I have yet to carefully read it.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Wilf


The argument with the quotation marks is false. You can find several examples of innocent documents in which these quotation marks were used and I doubt anyone here will call them forgeries:

1)Distribution of Structures (BW) for the Buildings, External and Secondary Installations of the Construction Project of the Auschwitz Concentration Camp, Upper Silesia, quoted by Mattogno, document 5, you can read "Praga"[1]

2)Letter from Heerdt-Lingler company to Auschwitz concerning two technical papers by Peters and Wüstinger on the subject of Zyklon B product, you can read: "Zeitschrift fur hygien. Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfungs" and "Sachentlausung in Blausäure-Kammern" and "Wiener klinische Wochenschrift"[2]

3)Document concerning inmate labor deployment, you can read "Gewächshaus"[3]

I am sure there are more examples when we take into account quantity of documents captured after the war.

Using of quotation marks was perfectly normal and innocent, quotation marks do not imply a sinister meaning, that´s exterminationists´typical non sequitur ignoring inconvenient evidence leaving aside other problems with this line of argumentation.

[1]Carlo Mattogno, Special Treatment in Auschwitz. Origin and Meaning of a Term, Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago, Illinois, 2004, document 5, p. 115
[2]Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The Case For Sanity. A Historical and Technical Study of Jean-Claude Pressac’s “Criminal Traces” and Robert Jan van Pelt’s “Convergence of Evidence”, Washington, D.C., The Barnes Review, 2010, document 15, p. 699.
[3]Carlo Mattogno, The Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police Auschwitz, Washington, D.C., The Barnes Review, 2010, document 34, p. 116.

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby neugierig » 4 years 2 hours ago (Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:50 pm)

Thanks Hannover, mea culpa. As for the quotation marks, I have seen them used both ways also. Makes me wonder, for I am used to placing the first on the bottom, and I stand by it.

Just now I am reading Mitteleuropa, by Friedrich Naumann. The book was published in 1915 and a pleasure to read. The grammar is impeccable, as well as the spelling, that spelling I am used to, as were those who typed the documents with words misspelled. Quotation marks are seldom used, it was not the norm to use them. Many authors used italics to emphasize, or spaced the letter differently. And, Naumann, when he uses quotation marks, has it „Diktatur des Proletariats“, for instance. Why and when this changed is unclear, but the correct way is as shown.

Be that as it may, there are many other issues with this letter, as has been shown by Werd (Alvarez).

Regards
Wilf

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Hektor » 4 years 1 hour ago (Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:47 pm)

Type of quotation marks being used can depend on the type of typewriter being used.
The SS had typewriters that used a special character for the SS runes. It's not on that letter.
Credible letter has to conform with form, general grammar and factual content.

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby neugierig » 4 years 39 minutes ago (Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:46 pm)

Bob, do you speak German? The German spoken/written at the time under discussion? The reason I am asking is that I have Mattogno’s ‘Sonderbehandlung’ in German, with the quotation marks where they should be. This is a translation of course, do we have the originals you quote from?

Thank you.

And you are absolutely right, Hektor, and one can assume that Germans used typewriters made in Germany. The SS runes used in the Turner letter are also suspect.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Bob » 3 years 11 months ago (Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:12 am)

neugierig wrote:Bob, do you speak German? The German spoken/written at the time under discussion? The reason I am asking is that I have Mattogno’s ‘Sonderbehandlung’ in German, with the quotation marks where they should be. This is a translation of course, do we have the originals you quote from?

Thank you.

And you are absolutely right, Hektor, and one can assume that Germans used typewriters made in Germany. The SS runes used in the Turner letter are also suspect.

Regards
Wilf


Please, see the sources, I am quoting German passages with quotation marks directly from the documents whose pictures you can see on the pages referenced by me. It does not matter what translation of Mattogno´s book you have, the pictures of the scanned documents will be the same of course.

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Hektor » 3 years 11 months ago (Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:00 am)

neugierig wrote:....And you are absolutely right, Hektor, and one can assume that Germans used typewriters made in Germany. The SS runes used in the Turner letter are also suspect....

I'd bend it, if the proposed author of a letter was some low level functionary, but a SS-General? No chance.
It should be noted that Harald Turner was conveniently hanged in 1947 - When was the supposed letter "discovered"?

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Hannover » 3 years 11 months ago (Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:44 am)

More on the contrived text:
Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp..."

Wikipedia says at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Turner :
His quotation marks around the vehicle's name indicate that the vehicle was meant for killing the Jews he mentioned.[2] This follows a similar practice by the Nazis to publicly call gas chambers in concentration camps, "shower rooms".
So it is alleged that the quotes around "delousing van" was a use of a 'code word' for the never-found-but-alleged 'homicidal gas vans'.
But why speak bluntly of 'shooting all the Jews he could get his hands on' in one moment yet then use a veiled, hidden description immediately thereafter?

No one ever said that Allied / Zionist forgers were smart.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby neugierig » 3 years 11 months ago (Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:11 pm)

You didn’t answer my question Bob: Do you speak German? As for the: “…pictures you can see on the pages referenced by me”, can you post one? In my issue all I have is the German symbols “» «”, as quotation marks, actually more widely used then what is under discussion.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Bob » 3 years 11 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:44 am)

neugierig wrote:You didn’t answer my question Bob: Do you speak German? As for the: “…pictures you can see on the pages referenced by me”, can you post one? In my issue all I have is the German symbols “» «”, as quotation marks, actually more widely used then what is under discussion.

Regards
Wilf


I am sorry Wilf, will not disclose personal info like what language I speak, but that should be fine because I do not dispute grammar, I am addressing only the issue of allegedly wrong quotation marks. I am not even disputing that Germans are using different quotation marks than in English, for instance Gerhard Peter´s scientific/technical book re. Zyklon B and delousing has your quotation marks in German way. What I am disputing is that German used these marks in their war-time documents typed on the typewriters they used because as proven by many examples they used these ".." quotation marks.

Why don´t you look at the pictures of scanned documents yourself?

Why don´t you post at least one single war time German document typed on German typewriter and showing your supposedly only one correct quotation marks? I´ve showed three examples of innocent documents showing what type of quotation marks Germans used.

Want more documents? Here is another, Heydrich´s report to Hitler re. situation in the protectorate dated December 30, 1941, you can see clearly these ".." quotation marks.

Here is a document from April 1943 informing others that Martin Bormann has become Hitler´s personal secretary and he should be called that way.

Another example.

Another example of innocent and completely irrelevant non holocaustic document.

All these documents are fakes or will you admit that Germans obviously used these ".." quotation marks in their war-time documents? Feel free to search the database so see more proofs that your argument is invalid.

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Re: The 'Turner Letter'.

Postby Bob » 3 years 11 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:26 am)

World War one documents:

Image

Please, search the database for yourself if you want to see more, there are reportedly over 700,000 German records related to World War one. You can also find other type of quotation marks.

https://ersterweltkrieg.bundesarchiv.de/

So it´s quite simple, both type of quotations marks can be used, nothing suspicious, nothing strange about it, but it seems that these ".." quotation marks were used very very often during WW2 since all German war time documents I saw used them.


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