American gas chamber history

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comrade seinfeld
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American gas chamber history

Postby comrade seinfeld » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:18 pm)

There was, indeed, a gas chamber program in the United States to execute convicted murderers, which was eventually ceased, and I wonder if such has any relevance when considering the alleged homicidal gas chambers in the Nazi ethnic cleansing program. I remember reading something about the subject in the Leuchter Report quite some time ago (which presumably is available on the internet), which partly led Fred Leuchter to discount the notion of Nazi homicidal gas chambers.

What would be needed is references, either in print or on the internet, which discuss how difficult it was to execute criminals in the American gas chamber program, which would possibly reflect on how practicable it would be to gas hundreds at a time, as was alleged to be the case with the Nazi gas chambers, not to mention the alleged mobile gas chambers supposedly used by the Einsatzgruppen. Also, in this regard, it would be interesting to know if there were any mishaps causing the death or injury of those carrying out the execution of criminals. It would also be interesting to know why exactly the American gas chamber program was ceased: I would assume that it was for politically correct reasons relating to the fact that gassing would be a cruel and unusual punishment, which would seem to infer that gassing was not a very efficient means of carrying out capital punishment.

Another subject that would be of interest to "Holocaust" students would be a chronology of events where there were accidents in which there were significant mass gassings in confined spaces, or else where terrroristic motives were involved, and what were the practical effects of such gassings.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:36 pm)

Richard Green deals with this issue in the affidavit he filed for Irving v. Lipstadt. It is available at the HHP web site.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:14 pm)

Please elaborate, specifics please.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:08 am)

Green's affidavid is here

http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving ... affweb.pdf

View pages 25 to 26.

Green writes "Rudolf's argument is that the concentrations used in the gas chambers must have been at least as great as in US gas chambers in order for death to occur within 10 minutes."

He continues "The time reported for actual death in a US execution is not the same as an eyewitness at Auschwitz would have reported. In order for a US prisoner to be declared dead, at the very least, his or her heart must have stopped beating. In the gas chambers unconsciousness, silence and immobility would most likely have been reported as death. No one entered the gas chambers until they were ventilated. During the time of ventilation, exposure of the victims to HCN would have continued; so that any unconscious victims would continue to be exposed to lethal concentrations of HCN. So Rudolf's comparison is really invalid."

What Green is arguing is that in an American gas chamber execution death is determined by the heart stopping beating. This was not the case at Auschwitz where death was determined by immobility of the people in the chamber. However because the Sonderkommando could not enter the chamber until the gas had been cleared those that might have appeared dead but did not could have still died while the gas was being cleared from the chamber.

Green elaborates on this point in Appendix I: US Executions. Here Green shows that Rudolf has played fast and loose with his citations.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:46 am)

Green said:
No one entered the gas chambers until they were ventilated...

Pathetic. Let's cut to the chase.
Eyewitnesses claim the alleged gassing process took place in as little as 5 minutes, then the sonderkommandos supposedly entered to remove the bodies; which means the cyanide carrying delousing agent (Zyklon-B) would have just began to release it's load. It tooks hours for the Zyklon-B to complete the release process, which means that with the alleged gas chamber doors open, the gas would have continually spilled out into the campsite with lethal effect.

Read more on this ventilation nonsense by Green, it is thoroughly refuted here:

'Nizkor question #30 - ventilation of alleged gas chambers'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=930

in addition see:

'the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged gas chambers':
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=392

For much more, use the search function above and key in the 2 words:
ventilation chambers

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:55 am)

Hannover wrote:Green said:
No one entered the gas chambers until they were ventilated...

Pathetic.
Eyewitnesses claim the alleged gassing process took place in as little as 5 minutes, then the sonderkommandos supposedly entered to remove the bodies; which means the cyanide carrying delousing agent (Zyklon-B) would have just began to release it's load. It tooks hours for the Zyklon-B to complete the release process, which means that with the alleged gas chamber doors open, the gas would have continually spilled out into the campsite with lethal effect.


On your first point you are not taking into account what you yourself quoted. That is that the gas chambers were not entered until they had been ventilated. If the the killing process took five minutes that does not necessarily mean that the SK then immediately entered the chamber.

It only takes Zyklon-B hours to complete the release process when it is being used in an empty room for delousing purposes.

Furthermore the gas even if it were to leak would not reach the campsite in general. The chambers were in buildings as everyone knows.

Direct question to Hannover. What is the boiling point of HCN? Clearly our friend Hannover has no idea what the boiling point of HCN is or he would have answered this question himself. It's no wonder he allows the deniers here to have free reign to post what they want. If he didn't he'd be on his own and that boy wouldn't he look stupid?

Tom
Last edited by trtsk on Wed May 05, 2004 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:24 am)

said:
If the the killing process took five minutes that does not necessarily mean that the SK then immediately entered the chamber.

Wrong. The alleged eyewitnesses themselves state that the sonderkommando entered immediately. AND if they had waited hours, which they would have needed to (if the story was true), there would be no way to achieve the alleged numbers in the time frame given. The absurd story says thousands upon thousands were gassed every 24 hours....can't do that if the SK waited the necessary hours for the cyanide to be released from the Zyklon-B.

said:
It only takes Zyklon-B hours to complete the release process when it is being used in an empty room for delousing purposes

That statement makes no sense.
Zyklon-B takes hours to release it's load, whether in a crowded room or a large open space...the type of room has no practical effect upon release time. There is no way a crowded room can cause all the cyanide to be released in 5 minutes as the story states.

said:
Furthermore the gas even if it were to leak would not reach the campsite in general. The chambers were in buildings as everyone knows.

Wrong. The doors would necessarily have been opened to the outside as the alleged gas chambers were said to be attached to crematorium. Otherwise the alleged cyanide gas would have been exposed to the heat of the crematorium and we would have had a nasty explosions...if the silly story was true. AND 'eyewitnesses' say that the bodies were stacked OUTSIDE awaiting cremation.

The story falls upon it's own absurd contradictions.

- Hannover

again:
Read more on this ventilation nonsense by Green, it is thoroughly refuted here:

'Nizkor question #30 - ventilation of alleged gas chambers'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=930

in addition see:

'the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged gas chambers':
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=392

For much more, use the search function above and key in the 2 words:
ventilation chambers
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am)

Hannover wrote:said:
If the the killing process took five minutes that does not necessarily mean that the SK then immediately entered the chamber.

Wrong. The alleged eyewitnesses themselves state that the sonderkommando entered immediately. AND if they had waited hours, which they would have needed to (if the story was true), there would be no way to achieve the alleged numbers in the time frame given. The absurd story says thousands upon thousands were gassed every 24 hours....can't do that if the SK waited the necessary hours for the cyanide to be released from the Zyklon-B.

said:
It only takes Zyklon-B hours to complete the release process when it is being used in an empty room for delousing purposes

That statement makes no sense.
Zyklon-B takes hours to release it's load, whether in a crowded room or a large open space...the type of room has no practical effect upon release time. There is no way a crowded room can cause all the cyanide to be released in 5 minutes as the story states.

said:
Furthermore the gas even if it were to leak would not reach the campsite in general. The chambers were in buildings as everyone knows.

Wrong. The doors would necessarily have been opened to the outside as the alleged gas chambers were said to be attached to crematorium. Otherwise the alleged cyanide gas would have been exposed to the heat of the crematorium and we would have had a nasty explosions...if the silly story was true. AND 'eyewitnesses' say that the bodies were stacked OUTSIDE awaiting cremation.

The story falls upon it's own absurd contradictions.


Firstly you did not answer my direct question. Do not dodge. Either tell me at what temperature HCN boils or say you do not know.

Secondly you cannot just say what eyewitnesses said. Quote somebody. Give me a source to look at. I can not go just on your word.

Thirdly you say I make no sense and yet you will not tell us all at what temperature HCN boils. This makes a very big difference as it pertains to a room being empty or full. It also makes a big difference if you are fumigating WITHOUT ventilation or gassing to kill WITH ventilation.

Fourthy given that Cremas II and III had underground gas chambers there is no reason to assume that gas would have been released outside. Even with Cremas IV and V there would still be enough fresh air not to harm anyone.

Finally not all the eyewitnesses say the bodies were stacked outside waiting cremation. This is only said about the summer of 1944 when outside burnings happened. In all other cases the eyewitnesses say that the bodies went from the gas chambers directly to the ovens which were inside the same building.

I await your answer to my direct question Mr. Hannover. It is germane.

Tom

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Boiling point

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:42 am)

Hi trtsk,

your question can not be answered because you forgot to tell at which pressure you need the boiling point of HCN. I assume 1 atm. At 1 atm the boiling point of HCN is 25,7°C.

If you would have read the "Rudolf Report" you would have known!

Cheers

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:52 am)

Hannover wrote:said:
If the the killing process took five minutes that does not necessarily mean that the SK then immediately entered the chamber.

Wrong. The alleged eyewitnesses themselves state that the sonderkommando entered immediately. AND if they had waited hours, which they would have needed to (if the story was true), there would be no way to achieve the alleged numbers in the time frame given. The absurd story says thousands upon thousands were gassed every 24 hours....can't do that if the SK waited the necessary hours for the cyanide to be released from the Zyklon-B.


What eyewitnesses have said that the SK entered immediately? And why would they have had to wait hours if there was ventilation?

Please answer these direct questions.

Tom

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:55 am)

Hannover wrote:said:
It only takes Zyklon-B hours to complete the release process when it is being used in an empty room for delousing purposes

That statement makes no sense.
Zyklon-B takes hours to release it's load, whether in a crowded room or a large open space...the type of room has no practical effect upon release time. There is no way a crowded room can cause all the cyanide to be released in 5 minutes as the story states.


It depends on the temperature in the room Mr. Hannover. A cool room will cause the HCN to release at a much slower rate. A room filled with human beings is going to be at least ten degrees warmer in centigrade.

On top of that the gas chambers used less Zyklon-B than would be used in a typical fumigation process.

Because of all of this it is perfectly possible for the SK to enter the room provided it was ventilated after five minutes.

Tom

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:58 am)

Hannover wrote:said:
Furthermore the gas even if it were to leak would not reach the campsite in general. The chambers were in buildings as everyone knows.

Wrong. The doors would necessarily have been opened to the outside as the alleged gas chambers were said to be attached to crematorium. Otherwise the alleged cyanide gas would have been exposed to the heat of the crematorium and we would have had a nasty explosions...if the silly story was true. AND 'eyewitnesses' say that the bodies were stacked OUTSIDE awaiting cremation.


Nobody says that bodies were stacked outside all the time. This was only the case when open air burning had to be resorted to and only in the summer of 1944. In all other cases the bodies went directly from the gas chambers to the ovens which were all inside the same buildings.

In the case of Cremas II and III these installations were all underground making exposing the cyanide to the outside that much more impossible.

Direct question to Hannover. At what temperature does HCN combust?

Tom

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:32 pm)

trtsk wrote: It only takes Zyklon-B hours to complete the release process when it is being used in an empty room for delousing purposes.

The complete discharge time of HCN from the carrier of Zyklon-B depends on the ambient temperature and humidity, and not on how empty or full the room is or for what purpose, homicidal or desinfestation, the gas is being used.

Furthermore the gas even if it were to leak would not reach the campsite in general. The chambers were in buildings as everyone knows.

What about the workers inside the rest of the crematorium building or in morgue 2? By opening the door of the "gas chamber" morgue 1 in order to drag out the hundreds of corpses, with the poison gas still discharging from the Zyklon-B, the operating personnel of the crematorium were in my opinion clearly in danger of being poisoned.

Direct question to Hannover. What is the boiling point of HCN?

I believe that the boiling point of HCN is about 25º C. BUT HCN starts discharging from Zyklon-B at much lower temperatures.


fge

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:51 pm)

Sailor wrote:
trtsk wrote: It only takes Zyklon-B hours to complete the release process when it is being used in an empty room for delousing purposes.

The complete discharge time of HCN from the carrier of Zyklon-B depends on the ambient temperature and humidity, and not on how empty or full the room is or for what purpose, homicidal or desinfestation, the gas is being used.

Furthermore the gas even if it were to leak would not reach the campsite in general. The chambers were in buildings as everyone knows.

What about the workers inside the rest of the crematorium building or in morgue 2? By opening the door of the "gas chamber" morgue 1 in order to drag out the hundreds of corpses, with the poison gas still discharging from the Zyklon-B, the operating personnel of the crematorium were in my opinion clearly in danger of being poisoned.

Direct question to Hannover. What is the boiling point of HCN?

I believe that the boiling point of HCN is about 25º C. BUT HCN starts discharging from Zyklon-B at much lower temperatures.


Firstly the amount of people in a room is going to effect the ambient temperature and humidity.

Secondly if the gas chambers were ventilated before opening then there would be no hazard to others inside the Crema.

Third thank you for telling us all that there would be plenty of HCN in a room filled with people because you would get poison gas at far below the boiling point of HCN. Now jack the temperature up ten degrees or so. Should we not believe that the gas will fully discharge more quickly?

Tom

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:14 pm)

'Jacking up' the temperature a few degrees is a strawman; that would still not allow the cyanide to be released completely from the Zyklon-B in 5 minutes as alleged by wacky 'eyewitnesses'.

I notice trtsk ignored the ventilation threads I referred him to. Why?

And again, if the alleged sonderkommandos waited and did not enter the alleged gas chambers immediately, the numbers that were allegedly gassed could not have been achieved in the timeframe alleged. Hence they would have needed to move immediately or the story does not hold on that basis alone. But if they entered immediately, before the Zyklon-B was finished releasing it's cyanide, massive problems would have occurred.

The story is ridiculous anyway you cut it.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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