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Turpitz
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:42 pm)

What I meant Sailor, was just the very fact that 'no' ruler or straight edge has been used on these lined drawings. I just find it very odd that the German architects should want to be so amateurish and so terribly crude.

Yes Sailor, I have noticed the beam sits above the door. This also means the end of the beam would have to be picked up by a lintol itself, which would run across the door opening.

They mention from the floor to ceiling is 2.40m and the beam is 0.55m deep, that leaves 1.85m. I would not be able to stand up underneath this beam. But where the beam enters the wall above the door it would have to be resting on a substantial lintol, it could not rest on the top rail (top part of a door frame) of the door frame. So how much do we allow for a lintol to support such a large concrete beam? I do not know whether the Germans at this time and place had pre-stressed (concrete that has tensioned steel rods running through it, and the tension is not released until the concrete has cured. These tensioned rods are placed toward the bottom, so as too compensate for concretes inherent tensile weakness) concrete lintols. At a minimum (and this is an absurd minimum) you have to be 4 inches (100mm) at a very minimum! So that takes the opening down to 1.75m. Then you have to have the rail (top of the door frame) for the door frame, say an absolute minimum 2 1/2 inches (62 mm) So now we are down too 1.688m that's roughly 5' 6" !!!???

Are my very generous calculations right, or is everyone either a Pixie, Midget or Dwarf?

I do not like any of these so-called 'plans' ....They stink!

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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:00 pm)

To Temporary on hold:
On which drawing is shown on the lower left the German for "blown exhaust"?




Page 2 this thread. Sunday April 18th 7:30am post by "Sailor".


Specifically the Nizkorite claimed (probably quoting NIZKOR) the german writing at bottom left, in reference to the floor ventilation duct, indicated this vent was blower-assisted. In his mind this conclusively showed that the only purpose for including mechanical enhancement of airflow was to vent cyanide gas. However, Rudolf counters this claim by pointing out that the rate of air exchange was the minimum German standard for this type of facility of 10 air changes per hour. Rudolf pointed out that delousing chambers that were deliberately designed for cyanide use had over 70 exchanges per hour. He asks why, if this is proof of cyanide use, didn't they design a 70 exchange system for morgue 1?

When I asked this of the Nizkorite I was set upon by members of the site and called a Holocaust denier (and much worse). They were also unable to answer why the plan revealed evil cyanide vents but no rooftop chimneys...

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:48 am)

OK. The German word used here is "Entlüftungskanal", which is a ventilation duct for de-aeration. This was provided for fresh air circulation to slow down the decomposing process of corpses, as I understand it.

Rudolf was describing with his 70 air exchanges per hour the so called "Kreislauf" (circulation) type fumigation chambers which were relative small, about 10 m3, and allowed for short fumigation and gas discharge times.

If morgue 1 was used as a homicidal gas chamber it would take at least 1½ to 2 hours ventilation with the installed ventilation equipment before anybody could open the door and enter the morgue.

I wonder what reason your debating partners had to describe these ducts as cyanide vents. This can certainly not be deducted from looking at the plans. The room is clearly marked as a "Leichenkeller" (morgue) and has all the features of a morgue: cold storage temperature (underground), airtight doors to prevent warm air from entering (similar to a fridge), corpse slide (according to Mattogno), air circulation system to slow down the decomposing of the corpses).

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:24 pm)

I was wondering if anyone can be a bit more specific about the diameter of these ducts, and whether they were uniform throughout the whole run.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:15 pm)

All ducts continue inside the crematorium up to the attic, to the attic-mounted ventilators and from there through the roof through chimney like openings.


Image

From this sketch and the so-called 'plans' that are available, it is being suggested that the 1.5m ducts traverse the actual morgue from left to right. If this is the case, then you have serious problems!

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:26 pm)

I also notice on Van-Pelt's cartoon he seems to have omitted all the ductwork from inside the morgue!

Image

Just how do these ducts find their way across that morgue?

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:55 pm)

Turpitz wrote:I also notice on Van-Pelt's cartoon he seems to have omitted all the ductwork from inside the morgue!
[...]
Just how do these ducts find their way across that morgue?

The air ventilation ducts at the bottom are outside of the building.

But how both of them combine, go up and together with the triangular fresh air ducts cut at the point of termination through the beam which carries the weight of the morgue ceiling I simply don't understand from looking at these sketches.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:00 pm)

it is being suggested that the 1.5m ducts traverse the actual


Forgive me, but that should be 0.5m. The Russian/Polish notes and dimensions are so appalling, why they are scarely legible.

Image

The lintol is a joke, it should be at least 8" for such a important load bearing component, All the same even at 4", you end up with 5' 6" head-height through the door, that is with only a two and a half inch top rail as well!


But how both of them combine, go up and together with the triangular fresh air ducts cut at the point of termination through the beam which carries the weight of the morgue ceiling I simply don't understand from looking at these sketches.


Image

A little snippet that may help you understand why this building is flawed using these so-called 'plans':

Link here to Nizkor site (Edited by Webmaster)

1. No access stairway from the exterior to the future undressing
room (Leichenkeller 2) (this absence is particularly visible on
932(r), where the Soviets have tried to rectify the defect by
adding some steps in the centre of the west wall
, which is
incorrect, the actual location being more to the north). What
is more, the Krematorium was actually built _without_ this
stairway (photos neg. nos 286 and 20995/493 for Krematorium
III) which was added later;

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:47 pm)

These are interesting pictures, Turpitz.

Of course the air duct could cross over outside the morgue in the hall way. But there it would have to go through the elevator shaft.

Not so good either.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:04 pm)

Of course the air duct could cross over outside the morgue in the hall way. But there it would have to go through the elevator shaft.


It specifically shows on 'all' versions of so-called plans that I have seen, that it crosses over within the morgue!

There would be many problems taking them into the vestibule.

Someone has been pissing around with the plans, and they have messed them up, they are all over the place with them.

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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:32 pm)

Turpitz:


Are you sure you have the right duct there?

From what I can see the duct that crosses over in your figure 26 is an "exhaust" duct. According to the plans, as I've understood them, the bottom duct by the floor is the exhaust channel. While the ceiling ducts are the 'inflow' channels. Perhaps, in this case, it could have been possible to cross over under the floor without conflicting with any structural members?

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Postby HarvestOfSorrow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:40 pm)

wow turpitz did you draw these pictures yourself?..

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:17 am)

Temporary on hold wrote:Turpitz:

Are you sure you have the right duct there?

From what I can see the duct that crosses over in your figure 26 is an "exhaust" duct. According to the plans, as I've understood them, the bottom duct by the floor is the exhaust channel. While the ceiling ducts are the 'inflow' channels. Perhaps, in this case, it could have been possible to cross over under the floor without conflicting with any structural members?

The triangular shaped ducts underneath the ceiling are fresh air supply ducts. The left one has to cross somehow the beam which supports the ceiling, join the right hand duct, then go up to the attic to the ventilator and out through the roof.

fge

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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:50 am)

Can someone please give a cogent summary of what this ventilation/duct work discussion means and why it's important? Thanks.
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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:32 pm)

I think there's some confusion here. The intake ducts could not have come directly from the fresh air outside because the air needed to be warmed before entry into the morgue. I'm not 100% sure which ducts are being referred to, which is why I'm asking.

The reason I'm pointing this out is because Gauss's figure 26 note e specifies "Ventilation outlet channel". The specific word "outlet" makes me ask if this means "exhaust". If this refers to the exhaust duct then that was on the floor (actually outside the building), not on the ceiling.

What gives indication of the ductwork shown in figure 26 as being the 'intake' duct is the fact that it terminates in the c area inside the crematorium building. If this was the alleged exhaust duct it wouldn't be blowing cyanide exhaust into the crematorium and its ignition sources (not to mention lethal gas).

Is there anything there that prevents the ducts being taken below the floor where it crosses? Would this have been impossible due to design?




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