I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

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Wolfy Snackrib
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I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Wolfy Snackrib » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:36 am)

Hello! First time poster on this forum. I actually sought this forum out just so I could ask this question and perhaps others as well, in order to find some answers that go a bit deeper than what I've been able to find on my own.

So two of the camps to my knowledge have had to severely revise their death tolls. Auschwitz and Majdanek. I read that this was because the death tolls originally came from the Soviet. And when Soviet fell, information became available that could not be concealed, proving that nowhere near 4 million had died at Auschwitz (and at Majdanek, previously 1.5 - 2 million were said to have died, but today the official estimate is 78 000. According to The Red Cross, 8831 people died there.) The number for Auschwitz was revised to the 1.5 million estimate.
The 6 million Jews figure has not been updated accordingly. I sometimes see Holocaust revisionism material mentioning this as a very simple fact that shows the dishonesty of the 6 million figure, and most probably rightfully so.

However, I am interested in reading the rebuttals against Holocaust revisionism, which they call denial, and I'm interested in seeing those rebuttals refuted. One of the rebuttals that I saw listed on Wikipedia against Holocaust Denial was that the reason why the 6 million figure had not been updated with the revised Auschwitz number was because the death toll that the Soviet had given was of non-Jewish victims. That sounds very strange to me and I think it's most probably made up to cover for the 6 million figure, but I have not been able to find any sources on this that proves whether it's true or false. Could someone help me out? Does anybody know? Does anybody have sources relevant to this?

Interestingly enough, the Holocaust Denial section of Wikipedia makes no mention of the 1.5 - 2 million death toll at Majdanek lowered to 78 000. Maybe they didn't manage to refute it, so they thought it best not to even make mention of it, hoping to silence it to death, perhaps?

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:13 am)

No historian appears to have accepted the inflated 4M for Auschwitz, though this didn't stop the media from using it, including the well-known scene in the Ascent of Man (BBC TV) where Jacob Bronowski paddles around Auschwitz quoting it, but on Majdanek while Lucy Dawidowicz uses a figure of 1.3M Hilberg only cites less than 100K, with about 50 K Jews. (Quoting from memory of a comparative table published somewhere by Jurgen Graf, possibly in The Giant with Feet of Clay,)

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Hannover » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:18 am)

Wolfy:
First I think it's important to understand the mythical origins of the bogus 6,000,000. From there the scam is born. Everything else is a grotesque force fit into the sham 6,000,000.

recommended:
'The 6 million figure'
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9859

I also think you're somewhat barking up the wrong tree. Demanding proof of 'extermination' takes care of the matter.
demand to see:
- human remains of the '6M Jews & 5M others'
- authentic German documents
- science applied to the gassing claims
etc.
Those and much more are all effortlessly covered at this forum.

Welcome, Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Tomt » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:36 pm)

I don't think wolfy is asking for the rebuttals against revisionism he is asking for the rebutles to the rebutles to this figure. The problem is that the powers of the holocaust narrative say it happened because they say it did. The bigger problem is that not many academics will risk his career to give honest opinion. This isn't the only revision though. Many of the camps on German soil were said to have had mass gassing. I know of at least one SS who was executed for ordering gassing at a camp that they now say no gassing took place. Is it coincidence that the Soviet liberated camps are the only camps they say had mass extermination. I think we have a different story if the allies had got to auschwitz first.

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Hegwood » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:39 pm)

Wolfy Snackrib wrote:

... One of the rebuttals that I saw listed on Wikipedia against Holocaust Denial was that the reason why the 6 million figure had not been updated with the revised Auschwitz number was because the death toll that the Soviet had given was of non-Jewish victims. That sounds very strange to me and I think it's most probably made up to cover for the 6 million figure, but I have not been able to find any sources on this that proves whether it's true or false. Could someone help me out? Does anybody know? Does anybody have sources relevant to this?


Your statement indicates that someone is saying the original 4,000,000 victims were all non-jews, meaning no jews were included. I'm sure that what is meant is that the 4,000,000 included non-jews. In either case you are being asked to believe that the Polish government put up a memorial to 1,500,000 jews murdered at Auschwitz but that memorial fails to mention the 2,500,000 non-jews, presumably mostly Polish citizens, that were murdered at the same time.
After a little thought, I'm sure you would agree that the statement sounds "very strange" is an understatement. Even though holocaust arguments can be ridiculous. Don't expect you'll find any serious source that will try to support this one.

Hegwood

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby CommandantDB » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:11 pm)

"Of the approximately 4 million people killed at Auschwitz a minimum of 2 million were Jews. All of them were citizens of various European countries, but they were killed as Jews."
Beyond Belief (1993 edition) P. 262
Deborah Lipstadt
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong".

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:13 pm)

CommandantDB wrote:"Of the approximately 4 million people killed at Auschwitz a minimum of 2 million were Jews. All of them were citizens of various European countries, but they were killed as Jews."
Beyond Belief (1993 edition) P. 262
Deborah Lipstadt

I didn't think of Lipstadt but then she isn't a historian is she? A professor of Jewish religion therefore on this topic more a polemicist.

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby CommandantDB » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:47 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
CommandantDB wrote:"Of the approximately 4 million people killed at Auschwitz a minimum of 2 million were Jews. All of them were citizens of various European countries, but they were killed as Jews."
Beyond Belief (1993 edition) P. 262
Deborah Lipstadt

I didn't think of Lipstadt but then she isn't a historian is she? A professor of Jewish religion therefore on this topic more a polemicist.

Martin Gilbert claimed minimum 2 million jews and 2 million "others".
Auschwitz and the Allies (1980) P. 337
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong".

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby CommandantDB » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:53 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
CommandantDB wrote:"Of the approximately 4 million people killed at Auschwitz a minimum of 2 million were Jews. All of them were citizens of various European countries, but they were killed as Jews."
Beyond Belief (1993 edition) P. 262
Deborah Lipstadt

I didn't think of Lipstadt but then she isn't a historian is she? A professor of Jewish religion therefore on this topic more a polemicist.

There are many more who adopted the Soviet Commission’s figure of 4 million victims and/or deducted several hundreds of thousands.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong".

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby borjastick » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:18 am)

What's amazing is that these books were written or published less than 30 years ago when intelligent people should have known better than to have repeated such nonsense.

Thus one can only draw one conclusion; that they have the jewish victim hood agenda as their driver not truth.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:28 am)

CommandantDB wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:
CommandantDB wrote:"Of the approximately 4 million people killed at Auschwitz a minimum of 2 million were Jews. All of them were citizens of various European countries, but they were killed as Jews."
Beyond Belief (1993 edition) P. 262
Deborah Lipstadt

I didn't think of Lipstadt but then she isn't a historian is she? A professor of Jewish religion therefore on this topic more a polemicist.

Martin Gilbert claimed minimum 2 million jews and 2 million "others".
Auschwitz and the Allies (1980) P. 337

Really? My opinion of Gilbert was already pretty low before you told me that. It's really quite extraordinary that he could get away with such patent nonsense as that and the "hundreds of thousand every day" and still maintain a public image of a serious historian.

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby ginger » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:59 am)

When I first read, 5 years ago, that the death toll at Auschwitz was lowered by 3 million, I thought, of course, the 6 million figure would be lowered to 3 million. But in response to that proposition I have read that the death toll caused by the Nazis was really much higher than 6 million - 10 million or higher. In a recent book (2010), "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder, the author writes:

"Most Soviet and Polish Jews under German occupation had already been murdered by the time Auschwitz became the major death factory. By the time the gas chamber and crematoria complexes at Birkenau came on line in spring of 1943, more than three quarters of the Jews who would be killed in the Holocaust were already dead."

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby ginger » 4 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:02 pm)

So this is a dodge around the story they have been telling for 70 years. The death toll at Auschwitz was really about 1 million, the death toll of the Holocaust is really 10 million.

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Wolfy Snackrib » 4 years 1 week ago (Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:31 pm)

Thank you guys for all the replies. I'm also curious about what the original total number of the Holocaust was after the Nuremberg trials. Was it 11 million like we see today? And when the numbers got revised at concentration camps, they simply moved all of those deaths outside of the concentration camps, to assert the same number of 11 million?

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Re: I need help refuting a rebuttal to Auschwitz revised death toll.

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 1 week ago (Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:05 am)

CommandantDB wrote:Martin Gilbert claimed minimum 2 million jews and 2 million "others".
Auschwitz and the Allies (1980) P. 337

The same Martin Gilbert who stated that "hundreds of thousands" were being murdered every day in the Spring of 1943, being incapable of doing the simple arithmetic. 200,000 x 91 = 18,200,000. Doh!

And this is one of the men entrusted to find out the truth about the Iraq war.


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