95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby hermod » 3 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:59 am)

onetruth wrote: hermod :

I am talking about some 15,000 Poles and Russians ( non jews ) that where also imprisoned in Auschwitz. Please explain to us , why they would rather stay prisoners and shipped to Germany. Rather than be set free in their own countries ?


Probably because they feared the Soviet regime and its troops. The Poles hated the Soviets, and the Russians who had surrendered, were regarded as deserters and traitors by Soviet authorities. Uncle Joe had even ordered the destruction of the 'Soviet' POWs in Germans hands for that reason.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby Hektor » 3 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:41 pm)

hermod wrote:
onetruth wrote:Please explain to us , why they would rather stay prisoners and shipped to Germany. Rather than be set free in their own countries ?


For at least 3 reasons:

1) Because the Germans were not scary Jew eaters as those portrayed in Zio-twHistory for various political purposes.
2) Because many Jews hated life in Eastern Europe.
3) Because falling into Anglo-American hands was predictably the best way to reach the shores of Palestine, America and British countries.


That's at least plausible.

Some of the claims in terms of Stalin orders or Soviet practices would need back up.

But then we're used to all kind of assertions being made. And it's all circumstantial. The crux of the matter is that Auschwitz didn't serve as an extermination center with gas chambers and the like. It was essentially an internment center that struggled from diseases the Germans weren't really familiar with. So prosecuting someone only for the reason for being a staff member on a low rank is more then ridiculous. It's essentially a rape of justice by fanatics. And I think those driving more and more insane mock trials, circuses and emotional appeals to "justice" will eventually lead to their downfall. As with the witch trials more and more people will see the insanity in it.

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby hermod » 3 years 4 weeks ago (Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:02 am)

Hektor wrote:Some of the claims in terms of Stalin orders or Soviet practices would need back up.


I was referring to Stalin's Order No. 270 of August 16, 1941, stating:

If ... "instead of organizing resistance to the enemy, some Red Army men prefer to surrender, they shall be destroyed by all possible means, both ground-based and from the air, whereas the families of the Red Army men who have been taken prisoner shall be deprived of the state allowance [that is, rations] and relief."

The commanders and political officers ... "who surrender to the enemy shall be considered malicious deserters, whose families are liable to be arrested [just] as the families of deserters who have violated the oath and betrayed their Motherland."


(See "Stalin's War Against His Own Troops: The Tragic Fate of Soviet Prisoners of War in German Captivity" By Yuri Teplyakov.)
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby phdnm » 3 years 4 weeks ago (Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:12 am)

The latest halt marks the fifth time that the court case against Hubert Zafke


Incredible but true :?
Judge suspends trial of Nazi death camp worker who faces 3,681 counts of accessory to murder


Monday 19 September, 2016

A GERMAN COURT has today once again suspended the trial of a 95-year-old former medical orderly at the Auschwitz death camp, in a new setback for a case where a string of delays has sparked anger.

The latest halt marks the fifth time that the court case against Hubert Zafke has been put on hold since the first hearing in February because of concerns over his health.

Months into the attempt to prosecute him for at least 3,681 counts of accessory to murder, no evidence has been heard and the trial hangs by a thread.

Today, Zafke, sitting in a wheelchair, was brought by one of his four sons into the courtroom in the northeastern lakeside town of Neubrandenburg, where the hearing was once again focused on procedural issues.

Prosecutors put a motion for judge Klaus Kabisch to recuse himself, after a previous application by civil plaintiffs was rejected.

On the bench, the judge stifled a yawn as the prosecutors argued their case to get him replaced.

Prosecutors say that Kabisch is biased because he had been unwilling to start the trial in the first place due to Zafke’s poor health, before being overruled by a higher court.

Less than two hours later, without commenting on the new application against him, the judge adjourned the hearing without setting another court date.

The examination of the latest motion could take “three weeks”, he said.

‘Undignified’

Victims’ lawyers have grown increasingly frustrated at the lack of progress in the case.

“The co-plaintiffs have abandoned all hope that a trial that is anything other than a farce will actually start one day under this presiding judge,” their lawyers, Thomas Walther and Cornelius Nestler, said in a statement last week.

Over the last few hearings, a parade of doctors have been quizzed in court about Zafke’s mental health, with each reaching a different conclusion.

The hearings have taken a sometimes farcical tack, delving into his life in a rural village: Does he sometimes forget to feed his cats? Did he give his sheep too much to eat?

“While judges and experts review his daily life, the prosecutors stare into space,” said newspaper Die Welt.

The International Auschwitz Committee, a group representing camp survivors, has also sharply attacked Germany’s handling of the case, saying the court was hurtling “between sloppy ignorance and complete disinterest” in a resolution.

“The justice system has rarely offered a spectacle that is so undignified,” influential news weekly Der Spiegel wrote, noting the sharp contrast with the previous three trials of SS personnel.

Anne Frank’s train

The wisened Zafke is the fourth former concentration camp worker in the dock in this latest series of trials for Nazi-era crimes, following John Demjanjuk in 2011, Oskar Groening in 2015 and Reinhold Hanning this May – all convicted before solemn, packed courtrooms of complicity in mass murder.





Those cases were hailed for providing a degree of catharsis for aged survivors, even if they shed little new light on the known facts of the Holocaust.

The Demjanjuk case set the legal precedent that defendants could be sentenced for having worked at concentration camps where atrocities were committed without proof of specific crimes by them.

The charges against Zafke focus on a one-month period in 1944 when 14 trains carrying prisoners – including the teenage diarist Anne Frank – arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Frank, who arrived in Auschwitz with her parents and sister, was later transferred to another camp, Bergen-Belsen, where she died in March 1945, just two months before the Nazis were defeated.

Prosecutors have said Zafke was aware that the site in Nazi-occupied Poland was an extermination camp.

As the proceedings have stalled, a media war has gathered pace, with a lawyer for Zafke, Peter-Michael Diestel, blasting a “humanely troubling” and “politically dubious” effort to convict his client.

“I consider it extremely distressing that the German justice system, which has only spottily addressed the Holocaust, is trying to create a fig leaf for itself with this kind of trial,” he said in February.

More than 70 years after the prosecution of top Nazis began in Nuremberg, Germany is racing against time to try the last Third Reich criminals.

Some 1.1 million people, most of them European Jews, perished between 1940 and 1945 in Auschwitz before it was liberated by Soviet forces.


http://www.thejournal.ie/nazi-trial-hub ... 6-Sep2016/

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby Hektor » 3 years 4 weeks ago (Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:44 pm)

A prejudicial article.
Prosecutors have said Zafke was aware that the site in Nazi-occupied Poland was an extermination camp.


Now how would they know what he was aware of and what not?

Several people present in Auschwitz at that time only became "aware" of this after the unconditional surrender.

As the proceedings have stalled, a media war has gathered pace, with a lawyer for Zafke, Peter-Michael Diestel, blasting a “humanely troubling” and “politically dubious” effort to convict his client.

“I consider it extremely distressing that the German justice system, which has only spottily addressed the Holocaust, is trying to create a fig leaf for itself with this kind of trial,” he said in February.

Those seem to be the contact details of the lawyer:
[email protected]
http://www.diestel-anwaelte.de/

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby onetruth » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:37 am)

Hannover wrote:And here's Elie Wiesel. Wiesel’s exact words in “Night” are (p. 78 ):
The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for
ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let’s be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

[/quote]


kindly explain why would Elie Wiesel needed to enter his father as a patient to the hospital if they wanted to stay behind when you claim : ALL had a choice to stay behind


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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby Hannover » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:36 am)

I said:
And here's Elie Wiesel. Wiesel’s exact words in “Night” are (p. 78 ):

The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for
ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let’s be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

onetruth:
kindly explain why would Elie Wiesel needed to enter his father as a patient to the hospital if they wanted to stay behind when you claim : ALL had a choice to stay behind

Just like any hospital, people would need to check themselves into it if they needed attention. Thousands of others who chose to stay obviously did not need hospital services. Pretty basic stuff, onetruth.

- Of course you have dodged Primo Levi:
It was obvious that they were afraid to stay with the patients and were **deciding** to go with the healthy ones.
- ‘Survival In Auschwitz’ and the Reawakening, - two memoirs’, Summit Books, 1986, ISBN 0-671-60541-0, p.154
- You have also dodged photos and captions that were placed by your brethren.
- You have dodged the thousands of Jews who were healthy who chose to stay behind.
- You have dodged the fact that if the Germans were trying to conceal their 'crimes' they would have never left thousands of Jews behind who could then talk.
- You have dodged the fact that MOST Jews decided to leave with the SS, who are said to have been 'murderous beasts'.
- You have dodged the fact that according to the 'holocaust' storyline these thousands of Jews should have all been murdered ... if the lies were fact,

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:47 am)

Hannnover:
Onetruth's challenge is that you have not produced evidence for your assertion that those not in the hospital had a choice. Your last post did not produce any such evidence as far as I can see.

A supercilious and scoffing tone is a poor substitute for reasoned argument and evidence.

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby Dresden » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:29 am)

Kingfisher said:

"Hannnover:
Onetruth's challenge is that you have not produced evidence for your assertion that those not in the hospital had a choice. Your last post did not produce any such evidence as far as I can see"

Hannover posted several photos of healthy people "liberated" at Auschwitz
There were thousands of healthy people at Auschwitz on January 27, 1945.

The only people able to hike to the German camps from Auschwitz had to be very healthy.

Occam's Razor says the most likely scenario that would explain this situation, is that they had a choice.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby onetruth » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:37 pm)

Steve F wrote:Kingfisher said:

"Hannnover:
Onetruth's challenge is that you have not produced evidence for your assertion that those not in the hospital had a choice. Your last post did not produce any such evidence as far as I can see"

Hannover posted several photos of healthy people "liberated" at Auschwitz
There were thousands of healthy people at Auschwitz on January 27, 1945.

The only people able to hike to the German camps from Auschwitz had to be very healthy.

Occam's Razor says the most likely scenario that would explain this situation, is that they had a choice.


You are basing your assumption on images when it is not clear when where , taken and of whom.

The film liberation of Auschwitz was filmed between January 27 to 28 to february. Non of it describes the exact moment of liberation and those parts showing Russian troops breaking down the camp barriers and being embraced by remarkably robust and energetic prisoners where staged by the Russians

Here is the testimony of the camera man Alexander Vorontsov :

" The soviet team wanted to stage a film of triumphant liberation to present to the world , when former prisoners where strong enough , many volunteered to act as extras but the film was never shown , because it is in no way corresponded to the bleak reality of January 27 "

Captain Alexander Vorontsov

Here is the part where Captain Alexander Vorontsov describes it on the film liberation of Auschwitz :

See here minute 8:24


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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby Hannover » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:20 pm)

onetruth, you present a communist narrated propaganda film as if it was factual, yet you dodge:

Elie Wiesel:
The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for
ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let’s be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

Of course you have dodged Primo Levi:
It was obvious that they were afraid to stay with the patients and were **deciding** to go with the healthy ones.
- ‘Survival In Auschwitz’ and the Reawakening, - two memoirs’, Summit Books, 1986, ISBN 0-671-60541-0, p.154

- You have also dodged photos and captions that were placed by your brethren in the profitable 'holocaust' Industry. You are contradicting the very story tellers you try to defend.
- You have dodged the thousands of Jews who were healthy who chose to stay behind, even your video shows that, regardless of the alleged 'fattening up', which would have have taken quite a long time, if the tale was true.
- You have dodged the fact that if the Germans were trying to conceal their 'crimes' they would have never left thousands of Jews behind who could then talk. Your communist video show endless examples.
- You have presented no proof that the thousands who stayed were too sick to leave.
- You have dodged the fact that MOST Jews decided to leave with the SS, who are said to have been 'murderous beasts'.
- You have dodged the fact that according to the 'holocaust' storyline these thousands of Jews should have all been murdered ... if the lies were fact,



- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby onetruth » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:22 am)

Hannover wrote:onetruth, you present a communist narrated propaganda film as if it was factual, yet you dodge:

Elie Wiesel:
The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for
ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let’s be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

Of course you have dodged Primo Levi:
It was obvious that they were afraid to stay with the patients and were **deciding** to go with the healthy ones.
- ‘Survival In Auschwitz’ and the Reawakening, - two memoirs’, Summit Books, 1986, ISBN 0-671-60541-0, p.154



Hanoover

You are using two quotes that prove exactly the opposite of what you claim.

Primo levi is actually a good source on understanding how " liberation of Auschwitz " looked like cause hew was there . Your quote of him however is partial :

here is what you wrote about those two who decided to evacuate :

" It was obvious that they were afraid to stay with the patients and were **deciding** to go with the healthy ones. "

And here is the full version of the story :


" the two hungarian boys began to speak excitedly to one another. They where in an advanced state of convalescence , but extremely wasted away . It was obvious that they where afraid to stay with the patients and where deciding to go with the healthy ones "
" It was crazy of them to think of walking even for one hour , weak as they were , specially in the snow with their broken - down shoes , found at the last moment. I tried to explain but they looked at me without replying . Their eyes where like those of as terrified cattle "

Primo levi than describes the fate of those two boys :

" I learnt much later that , unable to continue , they had been killed by the SS a few hours after the beginning of the march."


To summarize :

Primo levi describes two boys who where clearly hospitalized with him and where afraid all patients would be executed so managed to sneak out of hospital to the march. It says nothing about everyone having a choice to stay behind only that the patients where left behind and that some out of fear of being killed thought they had better chances of survival if they left.

You can read the whole story with more details here :

Survival of Auschwitz :
Page 154

https://books.google.co.il/books?id=6w1 ... mo&f=false


As for your other quate about Elie Wiesel :

" The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for
ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let’s be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

Here too Elie Wiesel Testify exactly the opposite of what you claim.
He testify that the only way for his father to avoid evacuation was by admitting him to the hospital with him.
kindly explain why would Elie Wiesel needed to enter his father as a patient to the hospital if they wanted to stay behind when you claim : ALL had a choice to stay behind.

Out of some 65,000 people that survived Auschwitz , you could not even bring one testimony of someone stating that that All prisoners had a choice to stay behind except for those in hospital.

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby Hannover » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:49 am)

onetruth:

What about "decide" and "deciding" don't you understand?
One cannot decide unless there is a choice given.

Levi said:
I learnt much later that , unable to continue , they had been killed by the SS a few hours after the beginning of the march."
And how would Levi have known?
"Learnt much later"? Learnt much later indeed, after he was up to speed on the propaganda being spread.

As for why Wiesel needed to put his father in a hospital, well, I answered previously and you ignored:
Just like any hospital, people would need to check themselves into it if they needed attention. Thousands of others who chose to stay obviously did not need hospital services. Pretty basic stuff, onetruth.

Again:
- You have also dodged photos and captions that were placed by your brethren in the profitable 'holocaust' Industry. You are contradicting the very story tellers you try to defend.
- You have dodged the thousands of Jews who were healthy who chose to stay behind, even your video shows that, regardless of the alleged 'fattening up', which would have have taken quite a long time, if the tale was true.
- You have dodged the fact that if the Germans were trying to conceal their 'crimes' they would have never left thousands of Jews behind who could then talk. Your communist video show endless examples.
- You have presented no proof that the thousands who stayed were too sick to leave.
- You have dodged the fact that MOST Jews decided to leave with the SS, who are said to have been 'murderous beasts'.
- You have dodged the fact that according to the 'holocaust' storyline these thousands of Jews should have all been murdered ... if the lies were fact,
No dodging.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby borjastick » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:58 am)

The key word here seems to me to be 'evacuate'. Evacuate suggests care and concern and a system designed to take care of the evacuees. By using that word Weasel clearly knows that it's going to be ok and the best choice, for that's what it was, is to go on the evacuation with all the others.

If he thought both choices were riddled with danger and potential for disaster he wouldn't have used that word but perhaps 'forced relocation' or 'death march'.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: 95 year old former medic at Auschwitz to stand trial

Postby hermod » 3 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:44 am)

I agree with onetruth. Primo Levi's quote implies that staying in hospital amounted to escaping evacuation and that being among the healthy prisoners amounted to being evacuated. I understand Primo Levi's quote as meaning that those two Hungarian patients could decide to stay in hospital and not be evacuated or to leave hospital and be evacuated, NOT that the healthy prisoners could decide to stay at Auschwitz or leave the camp. What doesn't mean that the healthy prisoners could not decide to stay or leave. But neither Primo Levi's words nor Elie Wiesel's words help to know if that was the case or not. Assuming their words could help on any topic anyway...
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