The Economy of Nazi Germany

All aspects including lead-in to hostilities and results.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 880
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:42 am)

I was in a discussion with someone and the subject of the economy under Nazi Germany was brought up. Some people claim that Nazi Germany had an "Economic Miracle" and the greatest economy the world has seen, whereas others claim it was not a good economy but rather a disaster waiting to happen. And both groups cite various statistics to support their position. Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle, as discussed in the following video presentation, which I am listening to right now.

Video: The Nazi Economy by Cultured Thug


The video cites these two books as the primary sources:

Hitler's Revolution = by Richard Tedor
https://archive.org/details/HitlersRevo ... dTedor_383 or https://archive.is/SicoY

The Wages Of Destruction: The Making And Breaking Of The Nazi Economy - by Adam Tooze
https://archive.org/details/ToozeAdamTh ... aziEconomy or https://archive.is/0Duuw


Some of the criticisms I have been found was that the pre-war German economy had:

- Massive government deficits, often using 'mefo bills' were used to rebuild industries. If this money wasn't made up for it would cause long-term problems
- The agriculture industry did not improve, Germans had to import things like butter and milk
- Hitler did not get Germany out of the depression, but came in at the right time when it was pretty much already over
- Autobahn was not a Nazi policy but was created by the Weimar government but rejected as too socialist; videos and photos of its construction were also used as a propaganda tool, and supposedly it was also built largely with the labor of prisoners
- Germany was an economic powerhouse before WWI and in the 'golden years' of the Weimar republic, the Nazis weren't the cause of innovation but simply were in the right place at the right time

Feel free to post any information you have on the economy of National Socialist Germany. Primarily comments and criticisms of the economy before WWII started.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 880
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:37 pm)

Didn't notice this thread:

Hitler's Economic Miracle--the Greatest ever!
viewtopic.php?t=8347


From my research I do believe that overall the NSDAP had a positive impact on the German economy, for the most part. I am not quite certain whether or not it was a "Miracle" but in 1933, when Hitler came into power, things did get better in Germany. Here I will post some additional resources I have compiled on this topic. Some are critical, others praise the NSDAP, and a few seem to be somewhat neutral. The following links are in no particular order:


The Evening Post, Thursday, October 22, 1936:
Image


How was Hitler able to affect such an economic miracle in Germany between 1933 and 1939?
https://www.academia.edu/37281663/How_w ... 3_and_1939
or https://archive.is/PZI6K


Hitler’s Economic Miracle - pridecomethbeforeafall
https://archive.is/hTgO2


PART 10: Nazism and the German economic miracle - By Henry C K Liu
https://archive.is/j7STn


Nazi economic recovery - Alpha History
https://archive.is/zSPBg


The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics: German Economic Miracle - by David R. Henderson
https://archive.is/XwKdK


THE MIRACLE OF HITLER'S ECONOMIC RECOVERY - TomatoBubble.com
https://archive.is/j4E98


1933-1936 THE MIRACLE OF THE GERMAN RECOVERY - Smoloko
https://archive.is/pUyTk


How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy - Mark Weber
https://archive.is/rAVLJ


The Nazi Economic Mirage - ZeroHedge
https://archive.is/y68bP


The German Economic Miracle - Investopedia
https://archive.is/LklfN


Nazi Economics - Reason.com
https://archive.is/QxEjg


The Germany Economy Under Hitler - GlobalSecurity.org
https://archive.is/9MqqP


The German Economic Miracle and the "Social Market Economy"
https://archive.is/XxyjL


Ben Bernanke Says “Hitler Was the Guy Who Got Economics Right in the 1930s”
https://archive.is/Xqrmt


The National Socialist Way Out of the Crisis - Truth no defence
https://archive.is/s77IV


Hitler vs. Bernanke - Counterpunch
https://archive.is/kWPKe


How Hitler Defied the International Bankers
https://archive.is/DeX2b


[PDF] The economic history of the Nazi regime - Adam Tooze
https://web.archive.org/web/20151017181 ... ading1.pdf


THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX: HOW A BANKRUPT GERMANY SOLVED ITS INFRASTRUCTURE PROBLEMS
https://archive.is/Vxcj6


[PDF] The First German Economic Miracle - Uncensored German History
https://web.archive.org/web/20150419152 ... rticle.pdf


[Book] The Nazi Economic Recovery 1932-1938 (New Studies in Economic and Social History)
https://archive.is/GXGtc


[PDF] Employment Industry and Occupational Continuity in Germany: From the Nazi Regime to the Post-War Economic Miracle - Patrick A. Puhani
http://web.archive.org/web/201907010051 ... dp8372.pdf


The Omega File Chapter 25 – Germans Economic MIRACLE
https://archive.is/o4b0G


NAZI Germany: Economy (1933-45)
https://archive.is/TB6o9


WWII Myths – The German war economy was mismanaged
https://archive.is/TlO34


Guns and Butter – But No Margarine: The Impact of Nazi Agricultural and Consumption Policies on German Food Production and Consumption, 1933-38 - International Economic History Congress
https://archive.is/Epn6J


Industrial Investment in Nazi Germany: The Forgotten Wartime Boom - Department of Economics
https://archive.is/2Hkq2


Hitler, the Unemployed and Autarky - Some Observations After 50 Years
https://codoh.com/library/document/2075/


The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy - A Review
https://codoh.com/library/document/3156/


[Audio] National Socialist German Economic Policy - Christogenea
Part 1: https://archive.is/HhPsN
Part 2: https://mk.christogenea.org/podcasts/na ... -22nd-2013
Part 3: https://mk.christogenea.org/podcasts/na ... -29th-2013


[PDF] Against the Mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930's Germany - Germa Bel
http://web.archive.org/web/201907010119 ... ap/EHR.pdf


[PDF] The Coining of “Privatization” and Germany’s National Socialist Party - Germa Bel
http://web.archive.org/web/201907010122 ... el2006.pdf


Macroeconomics in Germany: The forgotten lesson of Hjalmar Schacht
https://archive.is/U8qWj


[PDF] The Role of Private Property in the Nazi Economy: The Case of Industry
http://web.archive.org/web/201907010124 ... rner06.pdf


German economic policy (1939) - Wilhelm Bauer
https://archive.org/details/GermanEconomicPolicy or https://archive.is/ftSCL


David Irving - Chicago Glenview bank praises Adolf Hitler as a great economic leader
https://archive.is/LvETU
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
HMSendeavour
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:54 pm)

The German economy is a funny one because the information on it goes every which way. I'll try to be concise and suggest some sources I personally found interesting.

First of all, the idea that the Autobahn wasn't a Nazi policy is generally accepted, yet the Autobahn is no doubt a facet of German society put into practise by the National Socialists and subsequently used to 'prove' their drive to war. Richard Evans in his second volume declares that the autobahn had military use and ties it into Hitler's plan for war etc etc. I honestly cannot be bothered to go through the book and find the quote and page number. It's in there, people say that, just take my word for it. I will say that I'm perplexed at this dishonesty. On the one hand Hitler implemented the autobahn project which does count for something; yet this desperate struggle to minimize any achievement by Hitler and his movement it's claimed the plan wasn't his. However, I have come across some evidence to the contrary. In Landsberg prison Hitler thought about constructing a road system that was essentially the autobahn. . .

"He spent long hours worrying over the nation's' economic problems and even evolved (so he confided to Frank) a clever way of putting many unemployed back to work: he would construct a system of highways binding the nation closer together and would then mass-manufacture a small economical car that the little man could afford" - John Toland, Adolf Hitler (Anchor Books) pp. 187


In any case, it becomes clear that Hitler had independant thoughts about how to economically unite Germany and at the same time improve her. The Autobahn was one way he thought of.

So what do we accept? That Hitler WASN'T responsible for the autobahns conception yet bares all the blame for it's military capability? Give me a fucking break. These hack jobs want to have it both ways and they simply can't. Maybe this means that Weimar had war mongering intentions of their own? Although I doubt that narrative would be all that popular.

R.H.S. Stolfi has a good section on this.

The biographers have given us a rich, descriptive account of Hitler during the period, but none has presented an overarching interpretation that credibly and realistically accounts for the astounding tempo of the alleged international criminality and similar pace of the domestic synchronization of Germany with the Nazi movement. The biographers have presented a tired theme of international aggression in the 1930s and domestic totalitarianism. The theme is exhausted because it has been repeated by every great biographer and presents Hitler as an international criminal and domestic terrorizer of the leaders of Marxism and the entire, although diminutive, body of Jews in Germany The interpretation is exaggerated in the case of the international picture, accurate in the case of the internal violence, but leaves us with an understated picture of Hitler pulling the remaining approximate 99.5 percent of the population out of the economic depression. Hitler, for example, would personally turn the first spadeful of earth that symbolized the beginning of the construction of the Autobahnen on September 23, 1933 on a bank of the Main River near Frankfurt. These architecturally styled engineering masterpieces centered on great ribbons of concrete road surfaces and inclusive bridges. They would employ an average of one hundred thousand workers yearly, stimulate the motorization of Germany, and further German national unity Earlier, on February 11, 1933, only twelve days after having become chancellor, Hitler gave the opening address at the International Automobile and Motorcycle Exhibition on the Kaiserdamm in Berlin. In the speech, he would elevate the automobile industry to be the most important of the future and link it with a vast program of road construction. He would simultaneously advance the idea of a people's car for Germans—a Volksauto—and link it with the Autobahnen.

The most recent great biographer, Professor Ian Kershaw, would trivialize Hitler's role in this conceptualization and implementation of the motorization and superhighway-altering of Germany. He would maintain derisively that Hitler, “lacking as he did even the rudiments of economic theory,”1 could hardly have been called an economic innovator, and that his “propaganda instinct, not his economic know-how led him toward an initiative that both assisted the recovery of the economy (which was beginning to take place anyway) and caught the public imagination.”2 The great biographer thus would denigrate Hitler as being an economics cipher and operating largely with instinct for propaganda effect. But Hitler, alone and with remarkable vision, took advantage of the chance event of the Berlin international exhibition to deliver a psychological masterpiece that projected a motorized Germany complete with more and better roads. We see a distinctive Hitler, complete with lack of sense of proportion, unerring instinct, its alter ego, genius, and constant companion, luck. He would project the idea in February, push aside bureaucratic argument of the transport ministry and Reichsbahn (German Railways system), and create a German Motorways Enterprise headed by Dr. Fritz Todt answerable by the end of November 1933 only to himself.

In what was an outsized undertaking, we have an opportunity to test the conventional wisdom's interpretation of Hitler. It is difficult to assign depravity and evil to Hitler for his conceptualization and implementation of the building of a Reich motorways system. He saw the advertising of such a system so early as the second month of 1933 as a psychological tour de force to restore morale in Germany and boost his own popularity It is difficult to the point of impossibility, however, to assign popularity and implied power as the primary motives for the Reich motorways. Since we are attempting to place Hitler within the context of his actual life rather than within a preconception of meanness, it is easy to discover his adolescent project of the underground rail system through Linz. The presence of transportation systems in both projects is eye-catching but largely incidental. Once our eye has been caught, however, we see two identically functioning Hitlers. In the younger one, we detect an inspired vision of an architecturally perfect Linz with everything else subordinated to the vision—cost, international rail line, workers’ flats, and so on. In the adult Hitler, we detect an inspired vision of a civil engineering architectural masterpiece intended not only to be the psychological basis for the social motorization of Germany but also a visual movement to its glory.

Hitler would claim, for example, to have already determined before he came to power “that immediately [after] the government fell into our hands I would begin the preliminary work for the production of a car whose price would enable it to become a real means of transport for the great mass of the people. By this means the motor-car would at last cease to be an instrument of class division.”3 And in utterly vintage Hitler, echoing his stress on heroic proportion as necessary for heroic action, he would exclaim in a speech that “in [the] case of the German people there is a demand not for two to three hundred thousand, but for six to seven million motor-cars!”4 This social motorization and these autos would be possible only with an enlarged road system, which in turn would be centered on the new superhighways. Hitler would point out later, as the Reich motorways project had developed by the end of 1937, that “the system of Autobahnen is the largest building undertaking in the world and already, with a displacement of 240 million cubic meters of earth by far exceeds the building achievement of the Panama Canal.”5 We see little evil in the project, although Kershaw would interpret him as exploiting the transitory psychological effects of announced motorization and super highway construction and then, by some dark miracle, as sending the right signs to a gloomy automobile industry. We thereby miss the more substantial Hitler who would not only retain his propaganda instincts but would also be driven to accumulate another mighty achievement.

And the automobiles and Autobahnen cannot even be connected with the potential for evil in rearmament. Even though some lesser biographers and greater historians would link automobiles and superhighways with military purpose, the German Army would advance against France so late as 1940 with only fourteen motorized divisions out of a total in the attack of 120, that is, it would remain largely horse drawn and foot marching. And the same army would transport itself about Europe by railway, in moves of any significant distance, for the entire war. For Hitler, automobiles and superhighways represented a grand project of social change and heroic architectural dimension that would add up to inspired achievement. None of this proves that Hitler was a nice person, but all of this warns us that he moved from inspiration to inspiration at the outer edge of reality for all others. And as concerns how he fit his architectural masterwork into his artistic vision of the world, he would comment in an unguarded moment that the Autobahnen would become his Parthenon. - R.H.S. Stolfi, Hitler Beyond Evil and Tyranny (Prometheus Books) pp. 278-281


The next claim. Most often cited, or at least repeated is that the National Socialists managed to achieve based on some flow of the period already coming to it's conclusion in which the depression was lifting. Something along those lines. Historian H.W. Koch has completely rejected this idea. You can read the quote and examine the sources to make up your mind.

It is often argued that in these elections the electoral reservoir of the NSDAP had been exhausted and that from now on its path could lead only downhill.35 This argument remains an unsubstantiated hypothesis. With equal validity it can be argued by comparing the trends of all the Reichstag elections of the Weimar Republic that the support for the NSDAP was levelling out and would in future elections have remained very high, though not overwhelming. This argument of the inevitable decline of the voters'
support is frequently linked with the other argument that once Hitler had become chancellor Germany had already overcome the depths of the recession and Hitler benefited from the general upturn of the world economy, an argument equally devoid of any basis in fact. While never cutting as deep as in Germany, in Britain the recession on the whole continued almost until the Second World War. In the USA Roosevelt's 'New Deal' temporarily alleviated the situation in some sectors, but the recession continued with great severity until the Second World War. - H.W. Koch, Aspects of the Third Reich, pp. 49-50


Koch's source here is

IfZ-Zeugenschrifttum ED I - Liebmann, p. 44. General Liebmann's manuscript notes.


You can also find Aspects of the Third Reich online here https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=AE119350B04AA16D4D1E8A9099108F26

On the agriculture industry you'll notice that in cultured thugs video, he quotes Tooze and talks of the horrible harvests Germany suffered in the mid 1930s due to the weather, the worst harvests Germany had suffered in decades. This mean't they needed to import grain because they simply didn't have enough, this was out of their control and cannot be held against a government that had barely been around for less than half a decade at that point.

Also, Germans simply decided to move out of the rural areas and work factory jobs regardless of the governments push to be more agrarian.


There are some other points i'd like to briefly point out and reading recommendations for you to pursue.

I'd like to post another quote by Koch on the economic determinist assertion.

This determinist thesis has now been extended to mean that by I936 the German economy had arrived at the crossroads at which Schacht’s policy of expedients had to be abandoned, the alternative facing Hitler being a return to the ordered channels of the international economy. Since the basic premise of Hitler’s policy was the extension of Lebensraum, such a return would tend to frustrate any rapid mobilization of Germany’s economic and military resources necessary for such a course. Consequently, Hitler had not only to continue the course of expedients but indeed to endeavour to extend it on a scale far wider than practised hitherto, with the result that, metaphorically speaking, cheques were drawn on non-existent capital, or more correctly the proceeds of living space were used before this space had actually been obtained. This seems plausible enough, but the theory is as good or as bad as any other. Its inherent major problem is the unsatisfactory state of the evidence cited, mostly polemical in nature, and the almost complete lack of figures. The one (but certainly not definitive) survey whose conclusions are backed up by relatively reliable figures, shows no evidence of an economic crisis between I936 and I939; moreover it reduces to its true proportions the myth, purpose- fully and apparently very successfully put about by Hitler, of the extent of German rearmament. The propounders of the thesis of inevitability of war for economic reasons interpret the Hossbach notes as being the military and political equivalent of Hitler’s Four-Year Plan of I936 in the economic field. This equation is juxtaposed with excerpts from Hitler’s Table Talk of I942-3. Apart from demonstrating that the method of juxtaposition is no satisfactory substitute for reliable and unequivocal evidence, since the Hossbach notes deal only with Austria and Czechoslovakia, they are irrelevant to Hitler’s concept of Lebensraum as such. Secondly, these territories hardly add-and this was clear to see in I937-8-sufficient resources to cope with a long-term economic crisis. This, of course, is provided such a serious crisis did exist, which is itself more than doubtful. – H.W. Koch, Hitler and the Origins of the Second World War. Second Thoughts on the status of some of the Documents, pp. 134


Kenneth Galbraith on the Nazi economy

"The Nazi economic policy, it should be noted, was an ad hoc response to what seemed over-riding circumstance. The unemployment position was desperate. So money was borrowed and people put to work. When rising wages and prices threatened stability, a price ceiling was imposed. Although there had been much discussion of such policy in pre-Hitler Germany, it seems doubtful if it was highly influential. Hitler and his cohorts were not a bookish log. Nevertheless the elimination of unemployment in Germany during the Great Depression without inflation - and with initial reliance on essentially civilian activities - was a signal accomplishment. It has rarely been praised and not much remarked. The notion that Hitler could do no good extends to his economics as it does, more plausibly, to all else." - Money: Whence it came, where it went" by John Kenneth Galbraith (First Published 1975), Page 237


Also from Galbraith

"By the mid '30s there was also in existence an advanced demonstration of the Keynesian system. This was the economic policy of Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich. It involved large-scale borrowing for public expenditures and at first this was principally for civilian works - railroads, canals and the Autobahnen. The result was a far more effective attack on unemployment than in any other industrial country. By 1935, German unemployment minimal. "Hitler had already found how to cure unemployment before
Keynes had finished explaining why it occurred."
In 1936, as prices and wages came under upward pressure, Hitler took the further step of combining an expansive employment policy with comprehensive price controls. The Nazi economic policy, it should be noted, was an ad hoc response to what seemed overriding circumstance. The unemployment position was desperate. So money was borrowed and people put to work. When rising wages and prices threatened stability, a price ceiling was imposed. Although there had been much discussion of such policy in pre-Hitler Germany, it seems doubtful if it was highly influential. Hitler and his cohorts were not a bookish lot. Nevertheless the elimination of unemployment in Germany during the Great Depression without inflation — and with initial reliance on essentially civilian activities — was a signal accomplishment. It has rarely been praised and not much remarked. The notion that Hitler could do no good extends to his economics as it does, more plausibly, to all else.

Note 16: ". . . the Nazis were . . . more successful in curing the economic ills of the 1930s [than the United States]. They reduced unemployment and stimulated industrial production faster than the Americans did and, considering their resources, handled their monetary and trade problems more successfully, certainly more imaginatively. This was partly because the Nazis employed deficit financing on a larger scale ... By 1936 the depression was substantially over in Germany, - Money: Whence it came, where it went" by John Kenneth Galbraith (First Published 1975), Page 225-226


And an interesting point from a paper I recommend.

"Historians reluctant to credit the Nazis with any economic program have argued that Hitler rode the crest of an autonomous "natural" upswing in the German economy, that Hitler reaped benefits of work-creation initiatives of his predecessors Franz von Papen and General Kurt von Schleicher, and/or that the Nazis disguised rearmament as "work-creation" programs in 1933/34. Years of debate over the timing and amount spent by the Nazis on rearmament have raised doubts that the Labor market recovery of 1933-35 was induced by a "rearmament boom." The debate highlighted the difficulty in defining "rearmament." Wolfram Fischer, Hans-Erich Volkmann, Wilhelm Deist, and Dieter Petzina contended that early projects carried out under Nazi work-creation programs were in fact direct or indirect rearmament projects. Reich defence minister Werner von Blomberg noted, the Wehrmacht's requirements were not considered in the early allocation of RM 1 billion from the June 1, 1933, Reinhardt work-creation program. He expressed willingness to accept that situation, but asked for RM 13.5 million from the Spende zur Forderung der nationalen Arbeit, a fund financed through "voluntary" contributions from the German people. The funds would be used for "railway construction in areas with poor transportation." Military expenditure, however defined, was relatively low during the key recovery years, 1933 through 1935. Once the upswing was well under way, rearmament contributed substantially to sustaining it." Richard J. Overy, moreover, has cautioned that "not all rearmament expenditure by any means went directly into industry and productive employment. Military expenditure is not the same thing as expenditure on armaments." Overy estimates that of a total "military expenditure" of RM 4.8 billion from 1933 to 1935, only about RM 600 million was spent on "military investment" in 1933 and 1934, and another RM 1.9 billion in 1935." - Fantasy and Reality in Nazi Work Creation Programs, 1933-1936 by Dan P. Silverman, The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 65, No. 1 (Mar., 1993), Pages 115-116
You can read it for free online here https://www.jstor.org/stable/2124816?read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents or copy and paste this link: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2124816 into http://sci-hub.tw/ and download the paper for free.

Books and publications you should read are as follows.

1. Explaining Hitler's Germany by John Hiden and J. E. Farquharson (read the citations in this book too)
2. The Plough and the Swastika: The NSDAP and Agriculture in Germany 1928–45 by J. E. Farquharson (read short review here https://academic.oup.com/ia/article-abstract/54/1/133/2567930?redirectedFrom=fulltext )
3. National Socialist Rule in Germany by Norbert Frei
4. Goring by Richard Overy
5. War and Economy in the Third Reich by Richard Overy https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=9756BEA6271F88F3DB0849540BDC7C57
6. The Nazi Economic Recovery by Richard Overy https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=595E3D9C6EAD7287A7C74E818EA85B34
7. Germany's Economic Preparations for War by Burton H Klein http://booksdescr.org/item/index.php?md5=D137CD5328BA1D6FE196873C9BB2FC17
8. The 12 Year Reich by Richard Grunberger
9. Big Business and Private Property Under the Nazis by Arthur Schweitzer
Pamphlets published in English by the NSDAP explaining aspects of the German system.
1. German Economic Policy bu Wilhelm Bauerhttp://aryanism.net/downloads/books/wilhelm-bauer/german-economic-policy.pdf
2. German Labour Service by Fritz Edel http://aryanism.net/downloads/books/fritz-edel/german-labour-service.pdf https://archive.org/details/GermanLabourService
3. Social Welfare in Germany by Werner Reher http://www.freepdf.info/index.php?post/Reher-Werner-Social-welfare-in-Germany
4. German Law and Legislation by Dr. Erich Schinnerer http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books_added2009-2/GermanLawAndLegislation.pdf http://ihr.org/other/schinnerer1938law
5. German Education Today by Theodor Wilhelm and Gerhard Gräfe https://archive.org/details/GermanEducationToday_201905
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 880
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:38 pm)

Thanks for the book recommendations.

I did cite a few good articles in this thread on the technological achievements of the Third Reich:

Theft of intellectual property and patents by the allies; Third Reich technological advancement
viewtopic.php?t=12416

As for the Autobahn, it really is just a case of people refusing to accept that Hitler did anything of value. They are truly motivated by ideology. Examples:
- The myth of Hitler's role in building the autobahn: https://archive.is/MBDHV
- How Hitler Stole the Autobahn: https://archive.is/w6ck9

I was not even aware that people were claiming that Hitler "invented" the idea of an interconnected highway system. It seems pretty intuitive: Roads had been around for a long time, cars were invented and becoming more and more common. I'm sure plenty of people thought "Hey, wouldn't it be nice if we had some really big roads from one major city to the other?" Actually getting the workers and materials required to build this massive project, on the other hand, is the feat. Similar to how we all credit the Wright brothers with flight, rather than the first caveman to watch a bird fly through the sky and think "wow, wouldn't it be nice if I could do that?" :P

Wikipedia gives the following figures of Autobahn length by year:
1935 - 108
1936 - 1,086
1937 - 2,010
1938 - 3,046
1939 - 3,300
1940 - 3,736
1950 - 2,128
1955 - 2,187
1960 - 2,551
1965 - 3,204
1970 - 4,110
1975 - 5,742
1980 - 7,292
1985 - 8,198
1990 - 8,822
1995 - 11,143
2000 - 11,515
2005 - 12,174
2010 - 12,813
2015 - 12,949
2016 - 12,993
2017 - 12,996
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

User avatar
HMSendeavour
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:14 am)

Lamprecht wrote:Thanks for the book recommendations.

I did cite a few good articles in this thread on the technological achievements of the Third Reich:

Theft of intellectual property and patents by the allies; Third Reich technological advancement
viewtopic.php?t=12416

As for the Autobahn, it really is just a case of people refusing to accept that Hitler did anything of value. They are truly motivated by ideology. Examples:
- The myth of Hitler's role in building the autobahn: https://archive.is/MBDHV
- How Hitler Stole the Autobahn: https://archive.is/w6ck9

I was not even aware that people were claiming that Hitler "invented" the idea of an interconnected highway system. It seems pretty intuitive: Roads had been around for a long time, cars were invented and becoming more and more common. I'm sure plenty of people thought "Hey, wouldn't it be nice if we had some really big roads from one major city to the other?" Actually getting the workers and materials required to build this massive project, on the other hand, is the feat. Similar to how we all credit the Wright brothers with flight, rather than the first caveman to watch a bird fly through the sky and think "wow, wouldn't it be nice if I could do that?" :P

Wikipedia gives the following figures of Autobahn length by year:
1935 - 108
1936 - 1,086
1937 - 2,010
1938 - 3,046
1939 - 3,300
1940 - 3,736
1950 - 2,128
1955 - 2,187
1960 - 2,551
1965 - 3,204
1970 - 4,110
1975 - 5,742
1980 - 7,292
1985 - 8,198
1990 - 8,822
1995 - 11,143
2000 - 11,515
2005 - 12,174
2010 - 12,813
2015 - 12,949
2016 - 12,993
2017 - 12,996


All good. To be honest this is a topic that's interested me for a long time, doing the research by myself I find to be quite daunting.

I checked out your other thread and I'm very happy that somebody has put together some information about these achievements. However, the archive links aren't available online, it would be great if you could update them or repost archive.org links. Thanks!
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

User avatar
HMSendeavour
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:31 am)

I was taking a glance at the zero hedge article you listed https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-07/nazi-economic-mirage and some stuff struck me as odd.

He does admit the miracle was real, I think it would be foolish to deny it

Hitler’s policies are still viewed to this day as a great example of how unprecedented government intervention fixed a dire economic problem. In short, Hitler laid a golden egg and produced an economic miracle.


As early as 1933, even before any miracle could be seen, the New York Times had nothing but praise for his ambitions, according to the following front page headline:

“There is at least one official voice in Europe that expresses understanding of the methods and motives of President Roosevelt—the voice of Germany, as represented by Chancellor Adolf Hitler.”

For sure, some of Hitler’s policies made a lot of sense. Building up the country’s infrastructure, which was so vital to a modern industrial economy, proved to be a winning bet. German workers could now afford cars to drive in the new roads, as well as other modern conveniences. Economic activity and incomes responded accordingly. That Weimar Republic feeling of uncertainty and malaise finally subsided. And the dramatic increase in fertility rates during the Nazi years also provided a boost (after all, babies can promote consumption). So in a sense there was no mirage here, the growth was real.


But he also says some stuff I find rather baseless.

While farmers benefited from the elimination of debt and some aid from the government – such as fixating prices and production to promote that elusive autarky, their ability to finance crop expansions and purchases of new equipment was also reduced. The sector saw a continuous outflow of workers, who were now being employed in all the other government sponsored projects and the military.

As a result, agricultural productivity suffered and shortages of food developed across the country. In response, the Nazis implemented food rationing – which would remain in place until the end of the war. In 1937, annual consumption of wheat bread, meat, bacon, milk, eggs, fish, vegetables, sugar, fruit and beer had fallen to levels comparable to a decade earlier (only rye bread, cheese and potatoes had increased). Malnourishment was starting to become a real problem amongst German workers, in farms and factories across the country.

In typical fashion, rather than blaming his own policies, Hitler believed that this situation resulted from a lack of “space to live” for his people. All major European powers had access to vast territories in Africa and elsewhere. The US had a huge continent at its disposal. But not Germany, who had lost out in WWI and was now confined to its diminished borders.


It's true the agricultural sectors saw many people leave, this in itself shows the flexibility of the regime, the National Socialists weren't forcing anyone into these agricultural industries even though Himmler for example supposedly tried to set up old medieval communities. In Norbert Freis book he mentioned how the Germans were more attracted to higher paying factory work, being able to see the cities and be apart of a larger economic project. I can't see how this is supposed to be a bad thing.

In any case, he claims agricultural productivity suffered and rations were in place. This isn't entirely untrue, it's just not an accurate view of the big picture.

From Tooze's 'Wages of Destruction'

Already in the summer of 1935 there had been talk of the need to introduce ration cards for bread. For obvious reasons, this was deemed to be politically unacceptable. Instead, the RNS resorted to an organized programme of substitution through which bread flour was diluted with maize meal and even potato starch.65 In relation to meat and butter the regime was more forceful. To dole out the scarce supply of butter, a discreet system of rationing was introduced in the autumn of 1935, in the form of customer lists kept by the retail outlets. Similarly, the meat supply could not be completely insulated from the impact of the disastrous potato failure in 1935. To ensure that there were sufficient potatoes for human consumption, the RNS culled the pig population and pushed through a sharp increase in the price of pork products. In Berlin, the price of cooked ham was raised by almost 30 per cent between 1934 and 1936. From 1936 onwards the RNS also supplemented the German food balance through imports. More than a million tons of grain were imported in 1936. In 1937 imports rose to in excess of 1.6 million tons. In 1936 there can be no doubt that this was a measure of last resort dictated by the two years of poor harvests and the exhaustion of stocks.66 ----From 1937 onwards German production was more than adequate to meet domestic demand. Imports were used, not to support current consumption, but to rebuild national grain stocks, which by 1939 were sufficient to cover the population's bread supply for an entire year. ----RNS. At no point was the German population threatened with real food shortages.69 The 'shortages' of meat and butter were due not to a collapse in supply, but to a huge surge in demand, especially from working-class consumers. Newly re-employed Germans with money in their pockets simply did not want to eat the austere vegetarian diet publicly espoused by the Nazi leadership with their Sunday lunches of vegetable stew. [i]- Adam Tooze, The Wages of Destruction, pp. 193[/i]


In general, however, a wholesale increase in food prices was ruled out by fear of provoking the kind of public outrage that had shown itself in 1934. It was this political freezing of the price system that created the appearance of shortages, forcing the RNS to resort to more or less overt forms of rationing. It was not until 1938, with the appearance of real supply problems in dairy farming, that the regime finally raised the prices paid to German farmers for milk. But even then the increase was not passed on to consumers. The price increase thus helped to stimulate production but did nothing to restrain demand. - Adam Tooze, The Wages of Destruction, pp. 194


When we bear in mind the disastrous situation of world agriculture in the 1930sit is clear that German farmers, in fact, enjoyed a historically unprecedented level of protection and it is hardly surprising that this came at a price. In return for the exclusion of foreign competition from home markets, peasant smallholders had to accept comprehensive regulation and control. Farming in Germany, as in Europe generally, from the 1930s onwards resembled less and less a market-driven industry and more and more a strange hybrid of private ownership and state planning. The true story is told by the level of prices paid to German farmers compared to those that German farmers would have received if they had been exposed to the full force of foreign competition. On this basis the record is completely unambiguous. Though it is true that grain producers clearly enjoyed a larger margin of protection than dairy farmers, for all major types of farm produce the prices paid to German farmers under National Socialism were at least twice those prevailing on world markets. Of course, under Schacht's New Plan, German industry enjoyed blanket protection as well. So the really telling development after 1933 was the sharp improvement in the terms of trade between agriculture and industry. During the Depression, agricultural prices had fallen more than industrial prices. After 1933, the 'scissors' between industrial and agricultural prices shut abruptly. Agricultural prices rose more rapidly than industrial prices and, again, this was out of line with developments in global markets, where agriculture continued to lag behind. The promise Hitler made on the night of 30 January 1933 was to restore the economic fortunes of the German peasantry within four years and the RNS certainly made good on that pledge. According to figures calculated by Germany's most authoritative economic research agency, total farm income, of which animal products accounted for more than 60 per cent, rose by almost 14 per cent in 1933-4 and by another 11.5 per cent in 1934-5. At the same time the burden of taxes and interest payments on agriculture fell significantly.73 When we allow for the general deflation in prices, increases in money incomes on this scale more than made up for the Depression. The situation would have been even better if it had not been for the bad weather and poor harvest in 1934. - Adam Tooze, The Wages of Destruction, pp. 195


It becomes abundantly clear that what was written in Zero Hedge just simply isn't true, or is too simple to be taken seriously. I looked for supposed starvation and or malnourishment without finding anything, and if this were true it wouldn't have been the regimes fault as we've seen harvests played a significant part in the economy in this regard.

The part in the article about Hitler's need for living space being portrayed as some colossal lie created by him to mask his economic failings is just absurd. Tooze in his book makes plain that Germany had insufficient space (see the cultured thug video for the quote on this) and this was a common view in continental Europe. If it were so untrue there's no way Hitler would've gotten away with it. Not only that, but you'd need a significant amount of evidence to prove this blatant lie but fourth by Durden.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

User avatar
HMSendeavour
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:02 pm)

I've come back to actually request information this time. Does anyone have any details regarding Marxism claims that Fascism and specifically National Socialist Germany was 'the final stages of Capitalism'? The classic claim that Germany was a Capitalist puppet which loved usury and big business etc.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 880
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:57 pm)

HMSendeavour wrote:Does anyone have any details regarding Marxism claims that Fascism and specifically National Socialist Germany was 'the final stages of Capitalism'?

The Marxists are quite silly. They have a few decent criticisms of capitalism, but it ends there: their proposed solutions are inevitibly worse. Communism is theoretical and claims to be characterized by collective ownership of property, and organizing labor for the common advantage of everyone. Think about a supermarket full of food, and you just go there and only grab what you need so everyone else can have some, but it's all free. Ha! Also think about spending a decade of your life learning to become a surgeon and yet not getting any higher pay than a person who becomes a low-level programmer, just sitting at a comfortable desk, low stress, taking it slow and only working half the time. What's the point?

Marxism also advocates for capitalism to be overthrown by a revolution of the proletariat (working class). Of course, this is fantasy. A self-described communist will say "True Communism has never been tried" because no government has just dissolved itself and give up control of 'the means of production' to the public. Marx described multiple stages:

1 - Primitive Communism; prehistory, nobody owns anything, everyone shares everything in a commune. Think paleolithic, hunter gatherer tribes

2 - Slave societies; Ancient societies with large slave populations, like Rome and Greece

3 - Fuedalism; Middle Ages, with nobles and peasants

4 - Capitalism; Economic competition, Bourgeoisie and Proletariat. The Bourgeoisie exploit the proletariat, and that is the source of their wealth

5 - Socialism; Government takes over the 'means of production' and the upper class no longer exploit the lower class. All the factories, supermarkets, and everything like that is owned by the government.

6 - (final stage) Communism; There is no more government or classes. The "Proletariat" violently overthrows the bourgeoisie and then everyone shares everything and is equal.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"
Meaning: Voluntarily give to society what you can, and take only what you need. There is really no evidence this sort of thing worked at all, except maybe in the stage 1, small tribal societies of a few hundred people.

Ultimately, Fascism and National Socialism were responses to Communism. Adolf Hitler saw communism, which he called "Jewish Bolshevism" as a tactic, rather than a system. The proposed goal of the Communists was to abolish the state and create an egalitarian paradise. What actually happened in Europe, as Hitler saw it, was that the Bolsheviks (who were disproportionately atheistical Jews) told the masses of people (Proletariat) that they would abolish the state and create a paradise as a false pretense to trick them into killing all the rich, oppressive "Bourgeoisie" so that the communists could establish themselves as the new leaders of the society. This is why every successful communist revolution resulted in the ruling class being totally exterminated or driven from the country.

I guess when these communists say "Fascism is the final stage of Capitalism" they are saying "After this, it's communism!" I guess? Can you find anyone that has made this claim?

I have found this:
Are we in the final stages of capitalism?
http://greenreview.blogspot.com/2017/02 ... alism.html
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

flimflam
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:19 am
Contact:

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby flimflam » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:52 pm)

https://www.quora.com/Were-Hitler-and-the-Nazis-responsible-for-Germany-s-economic-rise-after-the-Great-Depression-If-so-how

When Hitler came to power the German economy was in shambles and France occupied the Ruhr, the main center of Germany’s iron, steel, and coal production. His first goal was to restore Germany’s economy and he was successful, read Ellen Brown’s essay:

Thinking Outside The Box: How A Bankrupt Germany Solved Its Infrastructure Problems - http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/bankrupt-germany.php

Or so it seemed. Hitler and the National Socialists, who came to power in 1933, thwarted the international banking cartel by issuing their own money. In this they took their cue from Abraham Lincoln, who funded the American Civil War with government-issued paper money called "Greenbacks."



Within two years, the unemployment problem had been solved and the country was back on its feet. It had a solid, stable currency, no debt, and no inflation, at a time when millions of people in the United States and other Western countries were still out of work and living on welfare.

……

Although Hitler has rightfully gone down in infamy in the history books, he was quite popular with the German people, at least for a time. Stephen Zarlenga suggests in The Lost Science of Money that this was because he temporarily rescued Germany from English economic theory — the theory that money must be borrowed against the gold reserves of a private banking cartel rather than issued outright by the government.


Economic policies and benefits - http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... rint.shtml

The good life in Nazi Germany

Despite the loss of political and religious freedom, life improved in Germany for many ordinary people who were prepared to 'toe the line' and look the other way.


Hitler opening a new Volkswagen factory.
Image
Everybody had a job, and a wage. To people who had been unemployed and starving, 'work and bread' was a wonderful blessing worth every civil liberty they lost.

The Nazis set up KdF (Strength through Joy), which gave workers rewards for their work - evening classes, theatre trips, picnics, and even free holidays.

The Nazis devised a scheme to allow workers to buy a Volkswagen Beetle car for a small weekly payment.

The autobahns improved transport and travel.

People appreciated the public works - eg new schools and hospitals.

The streets were safe and there was no crime.

Germany was strong and successful in world affairs.

Nazi rallies provided colour and fun.

Nazi Youth groups provided activities and holidays for young people.

Nazi ideology gave people hope and confidence.

More info from the BBC .. BBC Bitesize - GCSE History - Life for workers in Nazi Germany - CCEA - Revision 6 - https://www.bbc.com/education/guides/zcj6y4j/revision/6

2. Strength Through Joy (KdF)

This scheme was set up in November 1933.

Its aims were to make workers support Hitler by offering them rewards and to keep them occupied outside the workplace with organised leisure activities. It was run by Dr Ley.

Activities and rewards included:

evening classes;

theatre trips;

picnics;

broad range of mass participation sporting events;

very cheap or free holidays. There were walking holidays in Switzerland and skiing holidays in Bavaria. Two big cruise liners were built to sail people around the Canary Islands for only two weeks’ wages.

The KdF also started a savings scheme for workers who wanted to buy the Volkswagen Beetle, known as the “People’s Car”. They were to save 5 marks per week until 750 marks had been paid into the scheme.

User avatar
HMSendeavour
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Economy of Nazi Germany

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 week 1 day ago (Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:32 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
HMSendeavour wrote:Does anyone have any details regarding Marxism claims that Fascism and specifically National Socialist Germany was 'the final stages of Capitalism'?

The Marxists are quite silly. They have a few decent criticisms of capitalism, but it ends there: their proposed solutions are inevitibly worse. Communism is theoretical and claims to be characterized by collective ownership of property, and organizing labor for the common advantage of everyone. Think about a supermarket full of food, and you just go there and only grab what you need so everyone else can have some, but it's all free. Ha! Also think about spending a decade of your life learning to become a surgeon and yet not getting any higher pay than a person who becomes a low-level programmer, just sitting at a comfortable desk, low stress, taking it slow and only working half the time. What's the point?

Marxism also advocates for capitalism to be overthrown by a revolution of the proletariat (working class). Of course, this is fantasy. A self-described communist will say "True Communism has never been tried" because no government has just dissolved itself and give up control of 'the means of production' to the public. Marx described multiple stages:

1 - Primitive Communism; prehistory, nobody owns anything, everyone shares everything in a commune. Think paleolithic, hunter gatherer tribes

2 - Slave societies; Ancient societies with large slave populations, like Rome and Greece

3 - Fuedalism; Middle Ages, with nobles and peasants

4 - Capitalism; Economic competition, Bourgeoisie and Proletariat. The Bourgeoisie exploit the proletariat, and that is the source of their wealth

5 - Socialism; Government takes over the 'means of production' and the upper class no longer exploit the lower class. All the factories, supermarkets, and everything like that is owned by the government.

6 - (final stage) Communism; There is no more government or classes. The "Proletariat" violently overthrows the bourgeoisie and then everyone shares everything and is equal.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"
Meaning: Voluntarily give to society what you can, and take only what you need. There is really no evidence this sort of thing worked at all, except maybe in the stage 1, small tribal societies of a few hundred people.

Ultimately, Fascism and National Socialism were responses to Communism. Adolf Hitler saw communism, which he called "Jewish Bolshevism" as a tactic, rather than a system. The proposed goal of the Communists was to abolish the state and create an egalitarian paradise. What actually happened in Europe, as Hitler saw it, was that the Bolsheviks (who were disproportionately atheistical Jews) told the masses of people (Proletariat) that they would abolish the state and create a paradise as a false pretense to trick them into killing all the rich, oppressive "Bourgeoisie" so that the communists could establish themselves as the new leaders of the society. This is why every successful communist revolution resulted in the ruling class being totally exterminated or driven from the country.

I guess when these communists say "Fascism is the final stage of Capitalism" they are saying "After this, it's communism!" I guess? Can you find anyone that has made this claim?

I have found this:
Are we in the final stages of capitalism?
http://greenreview.blogspot.com/2017/02 ... alism.html



I can indeed think of a few authors.

Franz Leopold Neumann the 'political socialist' and author of the widely influential "Behemoth: The Structure and Practice of National Socialism" https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.236979/page/n2 I've found this book in the bibliography of most books i've looked at, even if it's only sourced once or twice.

715FaA9tJJL.jpg


The Marxist and also widely influential, more so than Neumann, 'Historian' Timothy Mason. Who
wrote a 'ground breaking' study 'Social Policy in the Third Reich' (Only available in German online it seems) https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=DE26D039928F6D95D7FDAF5F40681772

61aXREjTtmL.jpg


And another book https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=01D7EAC38095C30D922310B267C1B3AD

23d7865f42d09bd4b285e48a087c.jpg


And maybe the Marxist 'historian' Arthur Rosenberg and his essay 'Fascism as a Mass Movement' https://www.academia.edu/25573087/Fascism_as_a_Mass-Movement_Translators_Introduction. Though perhaps he doesn't say this, in any case, he's the last Marxist 'historian' I know of in this regard, so I figured i'd include him anyway.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference


Return to “WWII Europe / Atlantic Theater Revisionist Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests