Blacks in National Socialist Germany

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 3 days ago (Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:07 pm)

christianbethel wrote:@Hannover To answer your questions, 1.) I read about his story in Clarence Lusane's Hitler's Black Victims.
...
4.) Wait, blacks were allowed to join the Hitler Youth???

In that very book you mentioned, it describes this. To wit:
The facts show that it was possible, in some instances, for young Afro- Germans to join in the early days of the HJ [Hitlerjugend; Hitler Youth], although later some who had joined were kicked or driven out of the organization. Research by a number of scholars and film- makers has uncovered some black survivors of the period who were members of the HJ.

The Nazi survivor Werner Egiomue, who is Afro-German and was featured in the documentary Black Survivors of the Holocaust, was in the HJ and in the army. In the film, he appears very reluctant to discuss his tenure and activities in the HJ. He does admit, however, that as a young man growing up during the Nazi time he saw himself as a “little führer.” 52 He joined the HJ at the age of ten and recalled, “I was one of those who was waving my swastika during the führer’s birthday parade through Berlin in 1936.” 53

Afro-German membership in the Hitler Youth, even in the very minimal and extraordinary circumstances in which it arose, raises important questions about the relationship between ideology, nationalism, and racial symbolism.
...
While the image of a black person in the HJ was strange indeed, the presence of Blacks in the German Army during World War II is perhaps not as unusual as it may first appear. Africans had a long history of participation in the German military, although the military under Hilter was obviously not the same service. The Compulsory Service Act of 21 May 1935 technically limited military service to those of Aryan origin with certain exceptions allowed. 55 Yet, some Blacks were able to enlist. Egiomue, who was a member of the German Gliders Sport Association (a flying sports club of sorts) during the National Socialist era, was turned down initially when he first formally tried to join the army. However, he protested, saying, “I’m German. I want to fight.” Eventually, he was able to enlist.
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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Moderator » 3 months 3 days ago (Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:11 am)

christianbethel:
Please do not cite books which you obviously did not read. That is not sincere, good faith debate.
Also, at this forum you are subject to challenges on what you claim, dodging challenges to those claims is not acceptable.
Please review our simple guidelines which you agreed to when you registered.
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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby HMSendeavour » 3 months 2 days ago (Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:13 am)

Lamprecht wrote:The story on Gilges in the book can be read here: https://vdocuments.site/hitlers-black-v ... icans.html

Hilarius Gilges

Somewhere around a dozen SS men arrived as the evening was coming to an end. It was around 10 oclock. They had been looking for and finally found their victim, a leader in the opposition to their authority. As his daughter recalls, this would be the last time his family would see him alive. Hilarius Lari Gilges was an early fatality of the Nazi regime in the Düsseldorf area but certainly not the last. Only twenty-four when murdered, he became a hero and a martyr for many who would resist the fascists in the years to follow.

Not a lot is known about Gilgess early life. He was born on 4 March 1909 in Düsseldorf and was of mixed-race heritage. His mother, in a 1945 interview, noted that the family was working class. For Hilarius, his class upbringing and experiences and his racial uniqueness would inform his life activities as he grew up. Even in the pre-Hitler period, he was, as an Afro-German, often the target of racial taunts, insults, and slanders. These provocations would push him toward more radical politics during his teen years. According to his mother, he became active in the workers movement at a young age. At only sixteen or seventeen, in 1926, Gilges joined the German Communist Youth Organization (KJVD). Reportedly, he was extremely commited to his political work in the party.

In addition to being a labor organizer, Gilges was a tap dancer and an actor. It is unknown how he became interested in tap dance, a form of dance with a distinct African American characterthere is no evidence one way or the other that he was influenced by outside dancers. Even in this area, Gilges fought for justice and a progressive politics. When he was only twenty-one, around 1930, he became one of the cofounders of the leftist worker-entertainment group the Northwest Ran, in Düsseldorf. The Northwest Ran group, comprising actors, musicians, and other performers, organized anti-Nazi demonstrations and protests in an attempt to stem the growing tide of Nazism. By this time, the Nazi Party had become a serious force across the country including the Düsseldorf area. The agitation of the entertainment troup and his labor organizing in all the cities and villages of the low Rhine, had made Gilges well known beyond his hometown. These activities strengthened the hate of his enemies and their determination to rid themselves of this troublesome and even dangerous black man.

The situation heated up in 1931 as labor unrest grew and large demonstrations occurred at the Marz-Gedenfeier work site. At one of the protests, racists were able to provoke Gilges into a fight in which the police, who were politically reactionary, if not pro-Nazi, seized the opportunity to punish him. He was arrested and sentenced some weeks later by the country court in Düsseldorf. He was given one year in the area prison.

If the authorities believed that a year of incarceration would diminish Gilgess organizing activities, they were disabused of that notion fairly quickly after his release. Shortly after getting out of prison, he aggressively renewed his position as a leader of the labor movement in the area. In fact, according to his family, his activities grew as the danger of the Nazi takeover loomed larger and larger. Only months before the Nazis came to power, he was agitating and organizing through the party. In the 1932 elections, he traveled through nearly every city, town, and village attempting to mobilize against the coming fascist era.

When Hitler and the Nazis came to national power in January 1933, Gilges was at the top of the list of enemies of the state in the Düsseldorf area. He began to work both above ground and underground as the Nazis set out to destroy the left and any opposition that remained. In the face of death threats and other warnings, Gilges refused to back down or go into hiding. In addition to his commitment to his work, he also had a family by then. He was married and had two daughters.

One daughter, Franziska Helmuss, recalls with a deep sense of loss the night they came to get him and the aftermath. She remembers, on the night of June 20,
My father was grabbed in front of my eyes. Twelve big SS officers dragged him out of the house. The next time I saw him was here [the Rhine river near Düsseldorf], floating under the bridge. Hed been stabbed 37 times and shot through the head His funeral was well attended, but exclusively by women. The men were too afraid to be associated with him. The stonemason who made the gravestone for my father was incarcerated for five years in a Nazi concentration camp.4

According to his mother, Gilgess killers were known. She noted that one of his murderers was the notorious SS guard Carl Wüsthoff of Düsseldorf. The cruelty and torture involved in Gilgess murder expressed a vindictiveness that would characterize much of what was to follow for the next dozen years. Also, the fear that Helmuss described on the part of the men (and the bravery on the part of the women) would be repeated as the terrorist state consolidated itself and step-by-evil-step eliminated its perceived and real enemies.5

The city of Düsseldorf put up a monument to Gilges near the site where his body was found. To the very end, he refused to submit to the Nazi state. Although attacked by his foes for his politics and his black skin, he always viewed himself in the broadest terms and battled the Nazis on behalf of working-class people and the nation as a whole. The respect he earned was remembered by all who knew him. Maria Wacher, who was in Northwest Ran with him, sums up Gilges best when she says, simply, he was a fighter.6

So, as I said, he was a political activist communist who was imprisoned for violence and then after being released started agitating heavily again. So I think what happened to him was not merely in response to his skin color. The National Socialists very much believed that Communism was a poisonous, homicidal ideology that was attempting to take over Germany. He died in 1933, the same year that millions of White Ukranians died in a famine orchestrated by the Jewish Supremacist dictator Lazar Kaganovich. The National Socialists opposed Gilges because of his espousal of communism, not his skin color.


Funny how these clowns can extrapolate one incident into 12 years. What a joke. The consolidation period of 1933 was brutal, but never again was life in Nazi Germany like it was in those days of ad hoc concentration camps.

See my new thread on this topic for perspective. https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12707&p=93557#p93557
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby christianbethel » 3 months 1 day ago (Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:11 am)

Moderator wrote:christianbethel:
Please do not cite books which you obviously did not read. That is not sincere, good faith debate.
Also, at this forum you are subject to challenges on what you claim, dodging challenges to those claims is not acceptable.
Please review our simple guidelines which you agreed to when you registered.
Thanks, M1


I understand. I had only read the chapter in which Gilges' story was told. It won't happen again. As for the questions I was not trying to dodge anything. I merely gave an answer that was too ambiguous.

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby christianbethel » 3 months 21 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:11 pm)

Wan't there a quote in Mein Kampf about Jews bringing blacks into the Rhineland to adulterate the white race?

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 20 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:48 pm)

christianbethel wrote:Wan't there a quote in Mein Kampf about Jews bringing blacks into the Rhineland to adulterate the white race?

Something like that:

Mein Kampf, Chapter 11 - Race and People
"The black-haired Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end, satanically glaring at and spying on the unsuspicious girl whom he plans to seduce, adulterating her blood and removing her from the bosom of her own people. The Jew uses every possible means to undermine the racial foundations of a subjugated people. In his systematic efforts to ruin girls and women he strives to break down the last barriers of discrimination between him and other peoples. The Jews were responsible for bringing Negroes into the Rhineland, with the ultimate idea of bastardizing the white race which they hate and thus lowering its cultural and political level so that the Jew might dominate. For as long as a people remain racially pure and are conscious of the treasure of their blood, they can never be overcome by the Jew. Never in this world can the Jew become master of any people except a bastardized people. That is why the Jew systematically endeavours to lower the racial quality of a people by permanently adulterating the blood of the individuals who make up that people."

The idea is that Jews would promote racial mixing to destroy any sense of ethnic solidarity in the host population, while Jews keep their own strong ethnic identity and work together for the benefit of their tribe. In other words, they aimed to be the one and only self-conscious group in Germany, able to act intelligently in promoting their group interests, and so the country would belong to them. Additionally, they would take advantage of the ethnic strife against Blacks and Whites to divert focus off of themselves. Malcom X, a famous Black American (I am sure you know of him) wrote something similar about the behavior of Jews in America:

Image

American Jewish Journalist Charles E. Silberman, A Certain People (1985):
"American Jews are committed to cultural tolerance because of their belief - one firmly rooted in history - that Jews are safe only in a society acceptant of a wide range of attitudes and behaviors, as well as a diversity of religious and ethnic groups. It is this belief, for example, not approval of homosexuality, that leads an overwhelming majority of American Jews to endorse 'gay rights' and to take a liberal stance on most other so-called 'social issues.'"


Anyway, this sort of language was not uncommon at all in the West. An example from the USA, Senator Theodore G. Bilbo, of Mississippi in 1947:
"If our buildings, our highways, and our railroads should be wrecked, we could rebuild them. If our cities should be destroyed, out of the very ruins we could erect newer and greater ones. Even if our armed might should be crushed, we could rear sons who would redeem our power. But if the blood of our White race should become corrupted and mingled with the blood of Africa, then the present greatness of the United States of America would be destroyed and all hope for civilization would be as impossible for a Negroid America as would beredemption and restoration of the Whiteman’s blood which had been mixed with that of the Negro."
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby christianbethel » 3 months 20 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:14 pm)

It seems to me that you people on the forum somewhat endorse or accept the racial bigotry of this time period. OK. Please go to Aryanism and tell them they are incorrect about their racial theories, because they allege NS Germany had no racism whatsoever. I would prefer not to be misinformed or outright lied to.

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 18 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:35 pm)

christianbethel wrote:It seems to me that you people on the forum somewhat endorse or accept the racial bigotry of this time period. OK. Please go to Aryanism and tell them they are incorrect about their racial theories, because they allege NS Germany had no racism whatsoever. I would prefer not to be misinformed or outright lied to.
Where did they claim Hitler and the National Socialists were not "Racist" and what definition of "racism" did they use? The word can be defined in various ways.

I am not endorsing these beliefs, but I accept the fact (as in, I do not deny) that most Western people in the 1930s had beliefs which today would be labelled "racist". Personally I don't believe in such thing as an "inferior" or "superior" race, because that does not make sense from a biological standpoint. The various races have different proclivities for certain genetically-influenced traits. It is not a coincidence that West African Blacks overwhelmingly dominate sprinting competitions in the Olympic Games, but Whites and East Asians out-compete them in swimming. It has been suggested Blacks do not swim as well as Eruasians due to higher bone density, which is why Blacks are also less likely to be affected by osteoporosis. There is a concept in economics called TANSTAAFL ("There ain't no such thing as a free lunch") and the concept can also apply to evolution. Being better at one thing may make you worse at another. Another example is dark skin protecting you from the sun, but also causing lower vitamin D synthesis.

Anyway, this "Racial bigotry" you speak of is not something specific to Hitler or Germany. During World War II, White Americans were polled and it was found that: "90 percent of the American people state that they would rather loose [sic] the war than give full equality to the American Negroes" https://books.google.com/books?id=zswoV ... 22&f=false
Segregation was legal in America. The infamous 1934 "Nuremberg Laws" were heavily influenced by America's "anti-miscegenation" laws, which banned marriage between a white and a non-white in 30 states. Virginia was home to the infamous Racial Integrity Act of 1924. This Act designated people as non-white by the "one-drop rule," This was significantly more hardcore than the Nuremberg Laws - "too racist" for the Nazis to copy.

When Hitler was talking about the 'bastards of the Rhineland' he specifically meant the children of German mothers and soldiers of French colonial troops, of which some were black, that were stationed in the Rhineland after World War I. Miscegenation was, of course, considered a disgrace but this was not specific to Black-German mixes, it also included people who were German mixed with other races. Occupation troops are rarely welcomed regardless of race.

I don't think Hitler had any problem with Blacks who were not living in Germany, which was the only home for the German people and one that had shrunk considerably after World War I due to the Versailles treaty. See:

ImageImage
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Hannover » 3 months 17 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:03 pm)

christianbethel wrote:It seems to me that you people on the forum somewhat endorse or accept the racial bigotry of this time period. OK. Please go to Aryanism and tell them they are incorrect about their racial theories, because they allege NS Germany had no racism whatsoever. I would prefer not to be misinformed or outright lied to.

Really?
What makes you say that?
Tell us who said what.
Or are you going to dodge those questions too?
I remind you that views on race at that time were no worse in 1930s-40s NS Germany than anywhere else. In fact they were much milder than other countries. You cannot prove otherwise, while we have given you multiple facts about the status of blacks in NS Germany which easily refute your position. But then you ignore them.

It's you who seems so curiously obsessed with race and is interested in https://www.aryanism.net/blog , no one here that I know of is.

But then even IF NS Germany was the most "racist"" place on earth for blacks or anyone else, so what?
The alleged gas chambers were impossible regardless of your thoughts on race.
And, there are no millions upon millions of human remains as alleged, your irrelevant views on race cannot change that fact.

- Cheers, Hannover

BTW:
African chiefs urged to apologise for slave trade, Nigerian civil rights group says tribal leaders' ancestors sold people to slavers and should say sorry: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... lave-trade
"African chiefs were the ones waging war on each other and capturing their own people and selling them. If anyone should apologise it should be the African chiefs. We still have those traitors here even today."
and:
Black researcher, Dr. Tony Martin, let's us know who the prime sellers & owners of slaves really were, Jews.
Dr. Tony Martin - The Jewish Role in the African Slave Trade

If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby christianbethel » 3 months 15 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:48 pm)

Where did they claim Hitler and the National Socialists were not "Racist" and what definition of "racism" did they use? The word can be defined in various ways.


From their FAQ:
Wasn’t Hitler racist?

"At no point did Hitler advocate tribalism (ie. in-group/out-group double-standards). Hitler’s early rhetoric exaggerated German superiority in order to restore German confidence following defeat in WWI and long years of economic hardship, and thus gain political support. But once the NSDAP was in government, Hitler emphasized racial idealism rather than racial identity. Statements of German superiority were mostly in comparison to nearby populations (e.g. French, Russians), almost never to populations from other parts of the world. Racist Hans Guenther attempted to influence National Socialist literature to replace the open-ended term 'Aryan' (which was used by the NSDAP to describe people as diverse as Jesus, the Japanese military, numerous Native American groups and on at least one occasion even bees) with the narrow term 'Nordic', but was unsuccessful. Similarly, National Socialist Germany prohibited from publication the writings of racist Lanz von Liebenfels after annexing Austria.

In treatment of ethnic minorities, National Socialist Germany was among the fairest of all countries at the time, especially compared to Britain and America, two countries which Hitler despised specifically for their racism. Both 'black' American athletes of the 1936 Berlin Olympics and 'black' American POWs during WWII have remarked that they were treated more respectfully in National Socialist Germany than back at home where they were subject to Jim Crow laws. Moreover, a major theme of wartime anti-Allied propaganda was the racist abuse of colonial natives by the British Empire and other colonial powers, from which Germany was trying to save them.

Loyal citizens of all ethnicities were considered part of the National Socialist German folk, and the Waffen SS was the most multiethnic, non-segregated army in history, in an era when ethnic segregation was the norm among Western armies. The Nuremberg Laws – which required segregation only of tribes such as Jews and Gypsies (who themselves had chosen to maintain a separate identity from Germany as a whole), not 'black' people or any other ethnic minority - were anti-racist laws to prevent racism by tribes against the rest of the population. The attempt by racist Wilhelm Frick in 1935 to 'expand' the Nuremberg Laws to apply to other ethnic minorities resulted in his gradual removal from positions of authority from 1936 onwards. As a matter of fact, a circular was issued in 1936 to all NSDAP Gauleiters explicitly ordering employment protection of Germans of ethnic African ancestry to ensure the Nuremberg Laws would not be abused to discriminate against innocent people."


From their Glossary:
Racism (non-Aryan attitude)

Tribalism with the tribe defined as a certain ethnic group


Tribalism (non-Aryan attitude)

In-group altruism and out-group indifference; ethics based on this principle

E.g. humanism, racism
Often called “identitarianism” by those trying to make it sound respectable
Contrast with universalism


@Lamprecht
I am not endorsing these beliefs, but I accept the fact (as in, I do not deny) that most Western people in the 1930s had beliefs which today would be labelled "racist". Personally I don't believe in such thing as an "inferior" or "superior" race, because that does not make sense from a biological standpoint. The various races have different proclivities for certain genetically-influenced traits. It is not a coincidence that West African Blacks overwhelmingly dominate sprinting competitions in the Olympic Games, but Whites and East Asians out-compete them in swimming. It has been suggested Blacks do not swim as well as Eurasians due to higher bone density, which is why Blacks are also less likely to be affected by osteoporosis. There is a concept in economics called TANSTAAFL ("There ain't no such thing as a free lunch") and the concept can also apply to evolution. Being better at one thing may make you worse at another. Another example is dark skin protecting you from the sun, but also causing lower vitamin D synthesis.


Alright. I just wanted to be sure because to me your rhetoric was bordering on the tolerance of 1930s racism. Do you oppose racism only because it doesn't make sense, or because it is morally objectionable? And besides, I am of the belief that there is only one HUMAN race on this planet and the various ethnicities of Earth are subdivisions of the race. Truth be told, I have not done much research into the concept of race.

Anyway, this "Racial bigotry" you speak of is not something specific to Hitler or Germany. During World War II, White Americans were polled and it was found that: "90 percent of the American people state that they would rather loose [sic] the war than give full equality to the American Negroes" https://books.google.com/books?id=zswoV ... 22&f=false
Segregation was legal in America. The infamous 1935 "Nuremberg Laws" were heavily influenced by America's "anti-miscegenation" laws, which banned marriage between a white and a non-white in 30 states. Virginia was home to the infamous Racial Integrity Act of 1924. This Act designated people as non-white by the "one-drop rule," This was significantly more hardcore than the Nuremberg Laws - "too racist" for the Nazis to copy.


And just what is this "one-drop rule"? Are you informing me that the Nazis did take inspiration from the United States when dealing with race? I came to the conclusion that was just a myth!

When Hitler was talking about the 'bastards of the Rhineland' he specifically meant the children of German mothers and soldiers of French colonial troops, of which some were black, that were stationed in the Rhineland after World War I. Miscegenation was, of course, considered a disgrace but this was not specific to Black-German mixes, it also included people who were German mixed with other races. Occupation troops are rarely welcomed regardless of race.


Aryanism.net has some things to say about the "Rhineland Bastards". They go as far as to say the term was introduced in the Weimar Republic and the forced sterilization program was carried out without the NSDAP's knowledge by the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute.

I don't think Hitler had any problem with Blacks who were not living in Germany, which was the only home for the German people and one that had shrunk considerably after World War I due to the Versailles treaty.

That may be, but the problem is that Hitler had a problem with blacks inside Germany. Just look at Hans Massaquoi.
Last edited by christianbethel on Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby christianbethel » 3 months 15 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:59 pm)

Really?
Unfortunately, yes.
What makes you say that?
Just the parlance of Lamprecht. He makes statements about blacks in NS Germany as if to say "No, you're wrong. Aryanism is lying to you."
Tell us who said what.
I was referring to you and Lamprecht, specifically.
Or are you going to dodge those questions too?
I have dodged no questions in this thread.
I remind you that views on race at that time were no worse in 1930s-40s NS Germany than anywhere else. In fact they were much milder than other countries. You cannot prove otherwise, while we have given you multiple facts about the status of blacks in NS Germany which easily refute your position. But then you ignore them.
My information primarily comes from Aryanism.net.

It's you who seems so curiously obsessed with race and is interested in https://www.aryanism.net/blog , no one here that I know of is.

But then even IF NS Germany was the most "racist"" place on earth for blacks or anyone else, so what?
The alleged gas chambers were impossible regardless of your thoughts on race.
And, there are no millions upon millions of human remains as alleged, your irrelevant views on race cannot change that fact.

Rest easy, my friend. I do not believe the BS that is the official Holocaust narrative. I am just overly concerned of the fate of the hundreds of thousands of blacks living in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s, nothing more. I seek to learn the truth about them, and this forum is (I think) a good place to start. But if Hitler is guilty of mistreating blacks you should not be putting him on a pedestal.

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Moderator » 3 months 14 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:04 pm)

christian, you said:
But if Hitler is guilty of mistreating blacks you should not be putting him on a pedestal.

Please stop the childish strawman, fake arguments. Stating the truth about blacks in Germany of that period is not putting anyone on a pedestal.
As the record indicates you HAVE dodged numerous challenges, your saying you have not is simply not supported by the text of this thread.
If you wish to keep debating here you will do so in good faith.
Make your points all you like, but you are subject to challenge on your points and you must respond or leave thread.
Again, read our basic guidelines which you agreed to.
Thanks, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 14 hours ago (Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:26 pm)

christianbethel wrote:Just the parlance of Lamprecht. He makes statements about blacks in NS Germany as if to say "No, you're wrong. Aryanism is lying to you."

Please quote what is said on that website that is contradicting what is being posted here

Rest easy, my friend. I do not believe the BS that is the official Holocaust narrative. I am just overly concerned of the fate of the hundreds of thousands of blacks living in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s, nothing more. I seek to learn the truth about them, and this forum is (I think) a good place to start. But if Hitler is guilty of mistreating blacks you should not be putting him on a pedestal.

I do not think there is any such thing as hundreds of thousands of Blacks in 1930s Germany. Regarding the "Rhineland bastards" there were only about 500 of them, and other than that there were only 20-25,000 Blacks/mulattoes. Hitler was not even the one who first thought of sterlizing these mixed offspring.

The following book goes into detail about this, pointing out that anti-Black legislation in Germany long preceded Hitler's rise to power:
Image
Other Germans: Black Germans and the Politics of Race, Gender, and Memory in the Third Reich
PDF: https://epdf.pub/other-germans-black-ge ... he-th.html or http://web.archive.org/web/201909072345 ... -reich.pdf
TXT: https://archive.is/ByOyT or http://web.archive.org/web/201909080006 ... g/zvgU3UKe
Black occupation troops became the focus of international attention in April 1920, when French forces occupied the German cities of Darmstadt, Hanau, Homburg, and Frankfurt following an outbreak of civil unrest in the demilitarized Ruhr territory. During the taking of Frankfurt, French Moroccan soldiers fired on civilians, causing a number of casualties. In response to these incidents, the London Daily Herald published an article by an English journalist, Edmund Dene Morel, “Black Scourge in Europe: Sexual Horror Let Loose by France on the Rhine,” which marked the beginning of an international outcry against the alleged sexual misconduct of Black troops in Germany.14 A prominent member of the Independent Labor Party and one of the founders of the Union for Democratic Control, Morel had been involved for many years in the fight against the exploitation of Africans in the colonies (in particular, under the regime of King Leopold in the Congo). He went on to publish other articles on this topic as well as a longer pamphlet entitled The Horror on the Rhine.15 In the chronology of the Rhineland campaign, Morel’s publications effected an important change in the focus of the debates about the Black occupation troops, complicating the emphasis on race with sex and sexuality as the primary issue of contention. This new emphasis on the sexual element set off a chain reaction of outrage and exaggeration among the various international actors involved. On 23 April 1920, in response to Morel’s Daily Herald article, six parliamentary delegates petitioned the German government for an inquiry into rapes and assaults allegedly committed by Black soldiers on civilians in the occupied territory.
...
In this way, the initially racist objections to a Black military presence in the Rhineland were refounded on the basis of the purported sexual misconduct perpetrated by these soldiers, in addition to the most serious consequence associated with this uncontained sexual menace: miscegenation. The inextricable coupling of Black sexuality with the threat of interracial sex and miscegenation was a primary element around which the discourse of the campaign against the post–World War I Black occupation troops was structured.
...
Calls for the sterilization of the Rhineland children were made as early as 1927, when a local official in the Pfalz, Hans Jolas, wrote to the Bavarian Minister of Health, Sperr, regarding the province’s growing concern about the danger posed by the presence of these Black German children, who would soon be coming of age. Jolas asked Sperr to investigate what measures might be taken to secure and protect the purity of the race in the region from this emerging threat. Jolas suggested sterilization as a potential solution to this problem, though he acknowledged that such measures were illegal according to existing law. The Bavarian ministry denied Jolas’s request. Sperr’s response emphasized the fact that the ministry recognized the “serious racial danger” presented by the procreative potential of these Black German children. Yet he affirmed that there was to date no legal basis on which to carry out such sterilizations.

Born to German mothers and thus holding German citizenship, the children could also not be deported, a possibility also discussed by the ministry. Moreover, such an undertaking would be hindered by the fact that few mothers would agree to it. A further consideration was the potentially negative effects on domestic and foreign policy.1 Yet what is most salient about these discussions is the fact that, as was also the case earlier in the colonies and later in the Third Reich, these discussions revolved around the protection of the purity of the race from the dangers of “colored blood.”

Beyond measures specifically directed at dealing with the threat posed by the children of the Rhineland, National Socialist (NS) policy toward Afro-Germans who were not part of this group was not characterized by a top-down execution of legislative power, and for the most part, the regime’s actions were neither systematic nor coherent.2 Rather, the actions taken toward these individuals were ambivalent, with often-contradictory measures implemented at the local level and usually carried out on the initiative of individual bureaucrats or community members. As a result, it is impossible to present a comprehensive account of Nazi policy toward Afro-Germans in the form of a linear narrative. For this reason, the National Socialist program to sterilize the children of the Rhineland occupation is significant as one of the only systematic programs directed toward Black Germans as Blacks.

The point remains that at this point in time in history, this "Racism" if you like to use that word was common all throughout the West. Many of the Founding Fathers of America were slave owners, and the first US Naturalization Law signed by them in the first US Congress limited citizenship only to White people. And yet, the Bill of Rights that these "racist" individuals signed protects the liberty of millions of Black Americans today so that their standard of living is the higher than ordinary Blacks just about anywhere else in the world.

President Abraham Lincoln is often credited with freeing the Black slaves of America, but he personally believed that Blacks were an inferior race to Whites. If we can not look positively at any individuals from history that held the same "Racist" views as all of their peers from that time period, it will be difficult to find anyone prior to the late 1900s we could view in a positive light.

I will also note that the majority of states in USA had mandatory eugenics sterilization policies, and many Blacks were sterilized as a result:
While California’s eugenics programs were driven in part by anti-Asian and anti-Mexican prejudice, Southern states also employed sterilization as a means of controlling African American populations. “Mississippi appendectomies” was another name for unnecessary hysterectomies performed at teaching hospitals in the South on women of color as practice for medical students. This NBC news article discusses North Carolina’s eugenics program, including stories from victims of forced sterilization like Elaine Riddick. A third of the sterilizations were done on girls under 18, even as young as 9. The state also targeted individuals seen as “delinquent” or “unwholesome.”
https://archive.is/f9kbO
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby HMSendeavour » 3 months 7 hours ago (Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:30 am)

christianbethel wrote:It seems to me that you people on the forum somewhat endorse or accept the racial bigotry of this time period. OK. Please go to Aryanism and tell them they are incorrect about their racial theories, because they allege NS Germany had no racism whatsoever. I would prefer not to be misinformed or outright lied to.


But if Hitler is guilty of mistreating blacks you should not be putting him on a pedestal.


First of all I wanted to know. Are you black? Because I've never seen anyone specifically interested in this niche of Blacks in National Socialist history.

You also spoke of supposed "mistreatment". What is this mistreatment you're talking about or afraid of? What is wrong with the bigotry of the 1930s? If it's your prerogative to portray Hitler as some kind of anti-racist egalitarian, while the allies are 'the real racists' you're going to need to reevaluate. Hitler would never allow Germany to become a dystopian multiracial state that it is today. He would never have allowed the destructive policy of the Jews (and others do not get me wrong) to racially corrupt the German people as Jewish influence has done in the rest of the world today. For more information on this I would highly recommended Kevin Macdonald and his Culture of Critique (one book out of a 3 part set). Also see https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/.

I think what's going on here is a misunderstanding. You're a typical normie who's still terrified about the spectre of "Racism" and European Racial Nationalism, you see old 'racism' in the 1930s-40s as the typical person would today. This is evidenced by this comment of yours

I just wanted to be sure because to me your rhetoric was bordering on the tolerance of 1930s racism. Do you oppose racism only because it doesn't make sense, or because it is morally objectionable? And besides, I am of the belief that there is only one HUMAN race


I don't read Aryanism.net, but they strike me as weird and unconventional. Perhaps they attract you because they also use the same catchphrases as the left.

For me (I speak for no one else on this forum except myself, let that be clear) as a European who is deeply concerned about my people and their place on this earth today I embrace National Socialism as the complete worldview which constitutes value and love of one's race, culture and nation. It is the worldview which embraces natural order and the deep connection we as humans have to nature itself (See: National Socialism and the Laws of Nature https://nationalvanguard.org/2018/09/national-socialism-and-the-laws-of-nature/). National Socialism is focussed on the people, the group, not the state. See John Lukacs 'The Hitler of History'

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Hitler explains to us what the problem of civic 'nationalist' ideas are, and thus the old world colonialism which while being racially antagonistic at times was also quite egalitarian in it's actions. Misguided and wrong.

Those people did not understand that a policy of Germanisation can be carried out only as regards territory and not as regards human beings. What was generally understood by this term was the enforced adoption of the German language, but it is almost inconceivable that people should imagine that a Negro or a Chinaman, for example, can become German simply by learning the German language, by being willing to speak it for the rest of their lives and even to vote in favour of some German political party. Our bourgeois nationalists could never clearly see that such a process of Germanisation is in reality de-Germanisation, for even if all the outstanding and, visible differences between the various peoples could be bridged over and finally eliminated by the use of a common language, this would give rise to a process of bastardisation which in this case would not signify Germanisation, but the annihilation of the German element. In the course of history it has happened only too often that a conquering race succeeded by force in compelling the people whom they had subjected to speak their tongue, with the result that after a thousand years their language was spoken by another people and thus the conqueror finally turned out to be the conquered." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Stalag edition, pp. 435-43


This statement by Hitler is historically and today observably true when we see this diversity pushed on European countries, and only European countries. It is not 'racist' in the slightest, but to those who do not understand nature.

'Racism' isn't a word ever used in good faith, nor would anyone actually describe themselves as a 'racist' unironically. If you or anyone else calls someone 'racist' what do you actually learn about that person? Nothing. Because Racism defines nothing because it means nothing. 'Racism' is used to describe everything from accents, jokes, discrimination, hatred etc etc. The truth is that nobody has ever hated a race simply because they were different. This is a very common misconception created after 1945. What 'racism' which should be called 'ethnocentrism' is simply the preference of your group over another. This is totally normal and void of hatred, although if another racial group seeks you harm then of course hatred can brew, in this scenario it's not unjustified. What we call 'racism' occurs when different groups are competing for resources in order to propagate their genetic lineage. But leftists today have planted in the minds of the public that 'racism' is some kind of irrational hatred based on phenotypic differences, or even simply preference for one's own cultural heritage. You will notice that the pejorative' racist' only ever applies to White people and is hardly if never used to characterise non-whites. American race laws for example, were justified to keep America European and dominated by Europeans who built the country. Germany did not need these same segregation laws because Germany wasn't as diverse as the United States was at that time, the laws in each country thus reflected each countries problems. With Germany it was Jewish influence, as it was all over Europe. Many other countries including the United States was 'anti-semitic' for good and bad reasons which can always be debated. In any case that was the norm.

'Racism' is natural. It's not some boogeyman which was societally manufactured.

Now I know this isn't on the topic of Blacks in Nazi Germany, but this thread started by Lamprecht has been hijacked by christianbethel's pathological desire to obsess over race politics. Usually revisionists are enlightened people who have taken the wool off their eyes to the games of the general public and the Jewish establishments tricks. So to describe these basic concepts is usually unnecessary. I think we have a rare instance of a person who understands the Holocaust myth, but was brought to it via another route of dissatisfaction with society as it is today. Or even just morbid curiosity. Although I doubt the latter is true since he seems to be ideologically fixated on Blacks in Nazi Germany/European World for some reason instead of the Jews as most people interested would be.

See the following:

On my Bitchute I upload archives of various videos dealing with race, the modern predicament, National Socialism everything. https://www.bitchute.com/channel/GNVo14duinlN/

John Wears book reviews of Joseph W. Bendersky’s Book: The “Jewish Threat” https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2018/05/29/wearswar-review-of-joseph-w-benderskys-book-the-jewish-threat-the-irony-of-declassified-u-s-intelligence-dossiers-antisemitism-in-the-military/ https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2018/12/24/expanded-wearswar-review-of-joseph-w-benderskys-book-the-jewish-threat-the-irony-of-declassified-u-s-intelligence-dossiers-antisemitism-in-the-military/

See 'White Identity' by Jared Taylor https://www.murdochmurdoch.net/various/books/White%20Identity%20-%20Jared%20Taylor.pdf

National Socialism the Biological Worldview https://archive.org/details/NationalSocialismTheBiologicalWorldview

National Socialist Racism By Dr. Walter Gross Head Of The Office Of Racial Policy For The NSDAP https://archive.org/details/nationalsocialistracism

Germany Speaks https://archive.org/details/VonRibbentropJoachimGermanySpeaksBy21LeadingMembersOfPartyAndState

Faith of the Future by American National Socialist Matt Koehl https://nationalvanguard.org/2019/05/faith-of-the-future/

The Eternal Laws of Nature, Love, and National Socialism https://nationalvanguard.org/2019/06/the-eternal-laws-of-nature-love-and-national-socialism/

Building the Future National Socialist State: Folk Community https://nationalvanguard.org/2018/05/building-the-future-national-socialist-state-folk-community/

On Hitler's Worldview and War against International Marxism https://www.bitchute.com/video/1BDisUVhmnJa/

What was National Socialism by Cultured Thug https://www.bitchute.com/video/Bu2hOkXcGUPQ/ (See Cultured Thugs Bitchute it's tremendous https://www.bitchute.com/channel/cultured_thug/)

Adolf Hitler: German Chancellor or Pan-Aryan Leader? [url]https://nationalvanguard.org/2015/02/hitler-and-the-slavs-in-historical-perspective/
[/url]

What did the National Socialists think about Race? https://redpillaction.wordpress.com/201 ... bout-race/ and other articles on my website

The Jewish Question an Empirical Examination by Sean Last https://www.bitchute.com/video/nJJT9BTkZKdh/ also see this video which is based on Sean's article but the video is shorter than the link above https://www.bitchute.com/video/0rUMZnvIS6ni/?list=6OeKhwNNKlGk&randomize=false

The Dishonest use of the term "Racism" https://www.bitchute.com/video/TuPm5OLNf02Q/ also see the classic videos 'Racism is a Bogus concept" https://www.bitchute.com/video/NUvmEgydADCT/ and Part 2 'Dismantling Racism' https://www.bitchute.com/video/4AjubiOspI3e/

A video which influenced me early on is 'White Nationalism is the only Solution to save the West https://archive.org/details/WhiteNationalismIsTheOnlySolutionToSaveTheWest https://www.bitchute.com/video/bein5ZBZ8lJG/

Demography is Destiny https://www.bitchute.com/channel/demographyisdestiny/

A history of the Jewish Question from the earliest of times to Adolf Hitler and onwards https://www.bitchute.com/video/6oSrJ9k6og8p/

New Awakening National Socialism https://www.bitchute.com/video/oIA9VYasKZlT/

https://www.bitchute.com/video/gZq32ImR3acG/ American Krogan has done great videos on nation and race https://www.bitchute.com/channel/americankrogan/

An entire blog dealing with the Jewish Question http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.com/ well sourced and very readable
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: Blacks in National Socialist Germany

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 1 hour ago (Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:41 am)

christianbethel wrote:
Where did they claim Hitler and the National Socialists were not "Racist" and what definition of "racism" did they use? The word can be defined in various ways.

From their FAQ:
Wasn’t Hitler racist?

"At no point did Hitler advocate tribalism (ie. in-group/out-group double-standards). Hitler’s early rhetoric exaggerated German superiority in order to restore German confidence following defeat in WWI and long years of economic hardship, and thus gain political support. But once the NSDAP was in government, Hitler emphasized racial idealism rather than racial identity. Statements of German superiority were mostly in comparison to nearby populations (e.g. French, Russians), almost never to populations from other parts of the world. Racist Hans Guenther attempted to influence National Socialist literature to replace the open-ended term 'Aryan' (which was used by the NSDAP to describe people as diverse as Jesus, the Japanese military, numerous Native American groups and on at least one occasion even bees) with the narrow term 'Nordic', but was unsuccessful. Similarly, National Socialist Germany prohibited from publication the writings of racist Lanz von Liebenfels after annexing Austria.

In treatment of ethnic minorities, National Socialist Germany was among the fairest of all countries at the time, especially compared to Britain and America, two countries which Hitler despised specifically for their racism. Both 'black' American athletes of the 1936 Berlin Olympics and 'black' American POWs during WWII have remarked that they were treated more respectfully in National Socialist Germany than back at home where they were subject to Jim Crow laws. Moreover, a major theme of wartime anti-Allied propaganda was the racist abuse of colonial natives by the British Empire and other colonial powers, from which Germany was trying to save them.

Loyal citizens of all ethnicities were considered part of the National Socialist German folk, and the Waffen SS was the most multiethnic, non-segregated army in history, in an era when ethnic segregation was the norm among Western armies. The Nuremberg Laws – which required segregation only of tribes such as Jews and Gypsies (who themselves had chosen to maintain a separate identity from Germany as a whole), not 'black' people or any other ethnic minority - were anti-racist laws to prevent racism by tribes against the rest of the population. The attempt by racist Wilhelm Frick in 1935 to 'expand' the Nuremberg Laws to apply to other ethnic minorities resulted in his gradual removal from positions of authority from 1936 onwards. As a matter of fact, a circular was issued in 1936 to all NSDAP Gauleiters explicitly ordering employment protection of Germans of ethnic African ancestry to ensure the Nuremberg Laws would not be abused to discriminate against innocent people."

From their Glossary:
Racism (non-Aryan attitude)
Tribalism with the tribe defined as a certain ethnic group
Tribalism (non-Aryan attitude)
In-group altruism and out-group indifference; ethics based on this principle

E.g. humanism, racism
Often called “identitarianism” by those trying to make it sound respectable
Contrast with universalism

I think they are taking an exaggerated stance from the opposite perspective as the "Mainstream" opinion, which is that Hitler thought every race (especially Jews and Slavs) was biologically inferior to Whites/Aryans and that they all deserved to be exterminated because of it. As pointed out in the thread I linked to in my first reply, Hitler saw Slavs as Aryans and did not see them as inferior. The reason he was "anti-semitic" was because of the leading role of Jews in communism, as well as their tendency to be loyal to their fellow Jews over the German people.

I think it is interesting what they say here: "Hitler’s early rhetoric exaggerated German superiority in order to restore German confidence following defeat in WWI and long years of economic hardship, and thus gain political support."

That could be true. A great deal of so-called "Racism" is actually "cheerleading," boosting the morale and cohesiveness of one's own racial group, a practice that is adaptive if it is not unrealistic. As cheerleaders have long known, people who believe that their own group is "superior" to other groups, even if it is not, are more successful than people who believe their group is the pits. Greater success is an excellent reason for having a group identity and for favoring one's own group.

I think they are wrong saying that the Waffen SS was the most diverse military. The Waffen SS really only allowed Aryans (Germans + other White Europeans) and it was the Wehrmacht that had people of all races and ethnicities.
As for discrimination against German Blacks in general, as pointed out in the "Other Germans" book that I quoted, with the exception of the measures against the Rhineland Bastards (which numbered around 500, compared to the 20-25,000 other Blacks, and were called for by the public prior to Hitler's rise to power) there was no specific anti-Black legislation by the Nazi regime. Measures taken against German Blacks were "ambivalent, with often-contradictory measures implemented at the local level and usually carried out on the initiative of individual bureaucrats or community members."

They are using a very specific definition of "Racism" and it is not the same as the one found in the dictionary. So what we are experiencing here is an issue of equivocation ('calling two different things by the same name'). But, I do think that Hitler promoted tribalism. He wanted Germany to serve the German people, and he enacted laws to prevent miscegenation. If we are talking about Blacks, there just were not very many Blacks in the country, he didn't worry about them. And they did not have some separate identity like the Jews, as most of the Blacks were probably mulattoes of mixed German-African heritage (from former German colonies in Africa).

@Lamprecht
I am not endorsing these beliefs, but I accept the fact (as in, I do not deny) that most Western people in the 1930s had beliefs which today would be labelled "racist". Personally I don't believe in such thing as an "inferior" or "superior" race, because that does not make sense from a biological standpoint. The various races have different proclivities for certain genetically-influenced traits. It is not a coincidence that West African Blacks overwhelmingly dominate sprinting competitions in the Olympic Games, but Whites and East Asians out-compete them in swimming. It has been suggested Blacks do not swim as well as Eurasians due to higher bone density, which is why Blacks are also less likely to be affected by osteoporosis. There is a concept in economics called TANSTAAFL ("There ain't no such thing as a free lunch") and the concept can also apply to evolution. Being better at one thing may make you worse at another. Another example is dark skin protecting you from the sun, but also causing lower vitamin D synthesis.

Alright. I just wanted to be sure because to me your rhetoric was bordering on the tolerance of 1930s racism. Do you oppose racism only because it doesn't make sense, or because it is morally objectionable?
The definitions of "Racism" I use, which are consistent with the dictionary:
1 - Belief that some races are superior or inferior to others
2 - Hatred or prejudice* of an individual or group based on their race or ethnicity

* prejudice = an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge of the facts

Quite often, in practice, the word "Racism" is thrown around by a person whose feelings are hurt, regardless of whether or not the definition applies. Like I said, I find people who apply to #1 to be wrong and their beliefs unscientific. I do not consider them "immoral" unless they take some negative action based on them.
As for #2, I would say that it is also wrong, but only immoral if someone would act on these beliefs. Sometimes it is not a conscious decision. I am not about to control what other people are allowed to think if they just keep their thoughts to themselves and don't harm anyone, I have not walked in their shoes.

And besides, I am of the belief that there is only one HUMAN race on this planet and the various ethnicities of Earth are subdivisions of the race. Truth be told, I have not done much research into the concept of race.
I believe that the major human races: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Australoid, Americanoid, Capoid... are analogous to separate subspecies and "Human" is the species.
But a "Race" is also defined as a large, extended family that is partly inbred. So there can be a "Human race", a Caucasian race, a European/White/"Aryan" race, a German race, even a Bavarian race. So one person can belong to all of those "races" which are just subsets of the former. So in that sense, the word "Race" has two major definitions.

Anyway, this "Racial bigotry" you speak of is not something specific to Hitler or Germany. During World War II, White Americans were polled and it was found that: "90 percent of the American people state that they would rather loose [sic] the war than give full equality to the American Negroes" https://books.google.com/books?id=zswoV ... 22&f=false
Segregation was legal in America. The infamous 1935 "Nuremberg Laws" were heavily influenced by America's "anti-miscegenation" laws, which banned marriage between a white and a non-white in 30 states. Virginia was home to the infamous Racial Integrity Act of 1924. This Act designated people as non-white by the "one-drop rule," This was significantly more hardcore than the Nuremberg Laws - "too racist" for the Nazis to copy.

And just what is this "one-drop rule"? Are you informing me that the Nazis did take inspiration from the United States when dealing with race? I came to the conclusion that was just a myth!

One drop rule = if a person has even "one drop" of Black ancestry, they are Black and prevented from mixing with Whites. The Nazis did not use this, and allowed people with 1/4 Jewish ancestry to mix with full blooded Germans.

Image

When Hitler was talking about the 'bastards of the Rhineland' he specifically meant the children of German mothers and soldiers of French colonial troops, of which some were black, that were stationed in the Rhineland after World War I. Miscegenation was, of course, considered a disgrace but this was not specific to Black-German mixes, it also included people who were German mixed with other races. Occupation troops are rarely welcomed regardless of race.

Aryanism.net has some things to say about the "Rhineland Bastards". They go as far as to say the term was introduced in the Weimar Republic and the forced sterilization program was carried out without the NSDAP's knowledge by the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute.
That may be so. If you can find any sources confirming whether Hitler himself ordered their sterilization, or it just happened without his knowledge, please post it. Often times anything that happened in Germany during the 1930s is blamed on Hitler, whether or not he had anything to do with it.

I don't think Hitler had any problem with Blacks who were not living in Germany, which was the only home for the German people and one that had shrunk considerably after World War I due to the Versailles treaty.

That may be, but the problem is that Hitler had a problem with blacks inside Germany. Just look at Hans Massaquoi.
What did Hitler do to Massaquoi? I just read a bit about him. He claims some discrimination against him, and then also mentions certain Germans going out of their way to be nice to him. As we just acknowledged above, Hitler is not responsible for every German person's behavior.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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