The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

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Mortimer
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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Mortimer » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:07 am)

Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:
Mkk wrote:First off I'd like to say thankyou to the moderators who have opened the WW2 revisionist forum on my and others suggestion. :)

The following is one of the most famous revisionist books on the origins of the Second World war, and is reccomended reading for anyone wanting to see the "other side" of the debate.

The Forced War

When Peaceful Revision Failed


By David L. Hoggan

http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/T ... 20War1.htm

Many other WW2 and Holocaust books, some revisionist and some not, can be found at this link (it takes some time to load)

http://wnlibrary.org/

Both of the above links are now kaput but you can find an English version of The Forced War here - https://archive.org/details/TheForcedWar


I have not read the forced war but it is recommended by Butz and by Metapedia which is careful to avoid mistakes as being solid. However I disagree.

There's not a single reference in it. Maybe that's why the CODOH book store does not include it at all! Because they seem to only include books that pass a stringent quality screen. I think it should take a low priority until someone can provide a convincing answer as to why without any scholarly references.

As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg


There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Deitrich
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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Deitrich » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:18 am)

Mortimer wrote:
Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:Both of the above links are now kaput but you can find an English version of The Forced War here - https://archive.org/details/TheForcedWar


I have not read the forced war but it is recommended by Butz and by Metapedia which is careful to avoid mistakes as being solid. However I disagree.

There's not a single reference in it. Maybe that's why the CODOH book store does not include it at all! Because they seem to only include books that pass a stringent quality screen. I think it should take a low priority until someone can provide a convincing answer as to why without any scholarly references.

As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg


Bollocks!

"Apparently" has "footnotes" ?

If the book was referenced properly to credible sources- then it would have been the highest priority of all WW2 revisionists to have this work translated into English- probably the highest priority of any single other revisionist book across all fields worldwide- this alone discredits it.

Then the excuses- "sorry footnotes were not copied to save space"- convenient to drop the sources.

Even David Irving's books, which are written in the same non-academic story book style as Hoggan's, have some system of referencing.

Compare to Wallendy's work Truth for Germany in prose and citation.

Simple example- he claims in his book Hacha's daughter was given a box of chocolates on the German's arrival, and that she quote "said in a post war interview that her father willingly and without coercion made the protectorate"- this is pretty "important" information I am sure you would agree Mortimer..

Something pretty deserving of a "reference". Interestingly, you wont find that in other more citable revisionist works.

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Deitrich
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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby Deitrich » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:32 am)

Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:
Deitrich wrote:
I have not read the forced war but it is recommended by Butz and by Metapedia which is careful to avoid mistakes as being solid. However I disagree.

There's not a single reference in it. Maybe that's why the CODOH book store does not include it at all! Because they seem to only include books that pass a stringent quality screen. I think it should take a low priority until someone can provide a convincing answer as to why without any scholarly references.

As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg


Bollocks!

"Apparently" has "footnotes" ?

If the book was referenced properly to credible sources- then it would have been the highest priority of all WW2 revisionists to have this work translated into English- probably the highest priority of any single other revisionist book across all fields worldwide- this alone discredits it.

Then the excuses- "sorry footnotes were not copied to save space"- convenient to drop the sources.

Even David Irving's books, which are written in the same non-academic story book style as Hoggan's, have some system of referencing.

Compare to Wallendy's work Truth for Germany in prose and citation.

Simple example- he claims in his book Hacha's daughter was given a box of chocolates on the German's arrival, and that she quote "said in a post war interview that her father willingly and without coercion made the protectorate"- this is pretty "important" information I am sure you would agree Mortimer..

Something pretty deserving of a "reference". Interestingly, you wont find that in other more citable revisionist works.


Okay Mortimer- upon examining... It seems the citations are provided Oxford style within the text body, then condensed into sequential citations by chapter leading to the bibliography at the end of the book.

The citations section is very hard to discern both the type, especially the superscript and it's heavy going due to the clutter. Could explain why no half assed attempt at translation has been attempted with footnotes. I still think the fact this work is not translated into English in a new edition in full smells rotten.

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HMSendeavour
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Re: The Forced war by David L. Hoggan

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 week 5 days ago (Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:32 pm)

Deitrich wrote:
Deitrich wrote:
Mortimer wrote:As noted by Haldan in an earlier post there is a German version which is called Der Erzwungene Krieg. Apparently it has footnotes/references. Can someone who reads German please confirm this ? If so maybe a CODOH translator can put these online in English ?
https://archive.org/details/Hoggan1977- ... ngeneKrieg


Bollocks!

"Apparently" has "footnotes" ?

If the book was referenced properly to credible sources- then it would have been the highest priority of all WW2 revisionists to have this work translated into English- probably the highest priority of any single other revisionist book across all fields worldwide- this alone discredits it.

Then the excuses- "sorry footnotes were not copied to save space"- convenient to drop the sources.

Even David Irving's books, which are written in the same non-academic story book style as Hoggan's, have some system of referencing.

Compare to Wallendy's work Truth for Germany in prose and citation.

Simple example- he claims in his book Hacha's daughter was given a box of chocolates on the German's arrival, and that she quote "said in a post war interview that her father willingly and without coercion made the protectorate"- this is pretty "important" information I am sure you would agree Mortimer..

Something pretty deserving of a "reference". Interestingly, you wont find that in other more citable revisionist works.


Okay Mortimer- upon examining... It seems the citations are provided Oxford style within the text body, then condensed into sequential citations by chapter leading to the bibliography at the end of the book.

The citations section is very hard to discern both the type, especially the superscript and it's heavy going due to the clutter. Could explain why no half assed attempt at translation has been attempted with footnotes. I still think the fact this work is not translated into English in a new edition in full smells rotten.


So the book still has the potential to be translated because it is in fact cited (just in a confusing way)? I think if it were to be translated it'd be beneficial to turn the citations into notes, and simply source them like a regular work of history is nowadays. It might come out a big longer after formatting but that's fine. It'd become instantly more readable albeit with a couple hundred more pages when you account for the notes and enlarging the text.

It doesn't smell fishy to me at all. Sure, there's criticism when it comes to the sources and their formatting but I haven't even seen this complaint made by conformist historians when they review the book. Nor do they criticize in character the aspects of the war. In Lipstadts case she really only gives Hoggan a hard time about the Jews and his refusal to use mental gymnastics on Hitler's words. You'd think such a dangerous work would be worthwhile refuting beyond a shadow of a doubt if it is in-fact that easily refuted (which I doubt).

As far as I've seen Hoggan's work has largely gone ignored, it's still cited in IHR articles, new revisionist works like John Wear's "Germany's War" without complaint. If it was seriously that repulsive a book, that untrustworthy I think it'd have been made abundantly clear by now. I'm nearly convinced that the reason Hoggan's work hasn't been retranslated is because of indifference and lack of interest. People I meet just have the shitty English pdf (which I really hope isn't the actual formatting of the English edition because it truly is awfully layed out and considerably shorter) that seems to do them enough by satisfying their needs for healthy antidote to regular historiography. Most regular people just don't demand better and thus it isn't done.

I have hope that in the near future Hoggan's works, not just "the forced war" will be brought back into English properly well presented.

However. I'd still very much like new revisionist works to appear, such things need to be done in order to keep up with the same freshly packaged propaganda put out by conventional historians every year. I haven't yet had the chance to read Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof's book, but from the speech I saw him make It's make me thoroughly excited to buy the English translation available.


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