When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

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Hannover
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When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:12 pm)

When the Germans attacked Poland, Britain declared war on Germany in an effort to 'protect Poland'. Yet, the USSR invaded Poland from the east (result: The USSR occupied. 60% of Poland). So, where was the declaration of war by Britain against the USSR? After all, Britain claimed to have been protecting Poland.

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Nüziders » 6 years 6 months ago (Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:08 pm)

Is this really so surprising? Considering the timeline of events

1 Sep: Germany invades Poland
3 Sep: UK declares war on Germany
17 Sep: USSR invades Poland

At this point, the UK was already at war with Germany. They were going to then declare war on the Soviets and take on two massive armies, rather than one? What sane person would have declared war on the USSR at that point?

Further, the UK could ill afford to alienate the Soviets, knowing that Hitler would try his hand against the Soviets eventually. After all, he'd quite clearly stated: "Wenn wir aber heute in Europa von neuem Grund und Boden reden, können wir in erster Linie nur an Rußland und die ihm untertanen Randstaaten denken."

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:48 pm)

The treaty with Poland was to 'defend it against ALL 'aggression', your points do not hold up. Giving us the dates is irrelevant, the dates are no secret. With Britain AND France's navy, bottling up the Soviets would have been a piece of cake. And then there was Soviet aggression against Finland, Hungary, Rumania, on & on it went, which Britain and France both were silent about. But that's another topic I suppose.

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Hektor » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:52 pm)

Nüziders wrote:...At this point, the UK was already at war with Germany. They were going to then declare war on the Soviets and take on two massive armies, rather than one? What sane person would have declared war on the USSR at that point?...

What sane person would have declared war on Germany for Poland, which provoked Germany to that war, is an equivalent question.
Especially given that Germany made several very reasonable peace proposals for more then another year.
No, the whole pact with Poland was designed to get a war with Poland going.

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Nüziders » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:12 pm)

You're ignoring the context of Munich.

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:43 pm)

Come again. Explain this "context". Or are we changing the subject?

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Haldan » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:44 pm)

Hannover wrote:Or are we changing the subject?

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SURE looks like it. But that change would be even more bad for the posters case :lol:

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Nüziders » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:37 pm)

Munich is important because, again, it provides the context for the UK's declaration of war. The Munich Agreement had specifically stipulated that the Sudetenland would be the final territorial demand that Hitler would make. Then, not only did Hitler march into Prague and dismantle Czechoslovakia. THat wasn't in the agreement, and even then, the UK did not declare war. Even after demands were made for Memel and Danzig, it was hoped that a peaceful resolution could be found, at least by Chamberlain, if not the rest of his cabinet.

Further, the UK never guaranteed Poland's security against the USSR — only against Germany. See the secret protocol, which was agreed upon by Poland: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Agreement ... ndon_(1939)

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Hektor » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:55 pm)

Nüziders wrote:You're ignoring the context of Munich.

No I don't I just don't consider it, because it is actually irrelevant, since the myth you imply simply isn't true. There is in the Muenchener Abkommen that relates to any further territorial demands of Germany. But since it relates to WW2 we can discuss the Munich agreement separately on this forum.

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 pm)

Nüziders wrote:Munich is important because, again, it provides the context for the UK's declaration of war. The Munich Agreement had specifically stipulated that the Sudetenland would be the final territorial demand that Hitler would make. Then, not only did Hitler march into Prague and dismantle Czechoslovakia. THat wasn't in the agreement, and even then, the UK did not declare war. Even after demands were made for Memel and Danzig, it was hoped that a peaceful resolution could be found, at least by Chamberlain, if not the rest of his cabinet.

Further, the UK never guaranteed Poland's security against the USSR — only against Germany. See the secret protocol, which was agreed upon by Poland: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Agreement ... ndon_(1939)

Hitler had requested return of parts of 'Poland' to Germany prior to Munich. Your point makes no sense.

Hitler was asked for assistance in Czechoslovakia by the Czech govt., hence the term 'protectorate'. Of course it wasn't in the Munich agreement, it had nothing to do with the Sudetenland. Britain had no treaty with Czechoslovakia. Your point makes no sense.

The return of Memel and Danzig was supported by the local populations, which Poland ignored.

But as usual, and as previously observed, you are changing the subject.

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Haldan » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:48 pm)

Folks seem to howl endlessly about the right of self-determination for nations and people (Selbstbestimmungsrecht) but when it comes to the Germans they're invariably ignored when the issue comes up, or tainted as some sort of aggressors wanting to conquer the world.. :roll:

-haldan

Hannover wrote:
Nüziders wrote:Munich is important because, again, it provides the context for the UK's declaration of war. The Munich Agreement had specifically stipulated that the Sudetenland would be the final territorial demand that Hitler would make. Then, not only did Hitler march into Prague and dismantle Czechoslovakia. THat wasn't in the agreement, and even then, the UK did not declare war. Even after demands were made for Memel and Danzig, it was hoped that a peaceful resolution could be found, at least by Chamberlain, if not the rest of his cabinet.

Further, the UK never guaranteed Poland's security against the USSR — only against Germany. See the secret protocol, which was agreed upon by Poland: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Agreement ... ndon_(1939)

Hitler had requested return of parts of 'Poland' to Germany prior to Munich. Your point makes no sense.

Hitler was asked for assistance in Czechoslovakia by the Czech govt., hence the term 'protectorate'. Of course it wasn't in the Munich agreement, it had nothing to do with the Sudetenland. Britain had no treaty with Czechoslovakia. Your point makes no sense.

The return of Memel and Danzig was supported by the local populations, which Poland ignored.

But as usual, and as previously observed, you are changing the subject.

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Mkk » 6 years 6 months ago (Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:26 pm)

Then, not only did Hitler march into Prague and dismantle Czechoslovakia.

Czechoslovakia was not a territorial demand - the Czech government was collapsing, after Slovakia broke free, and Bohemia and Moravia were never made part of German territory anyway.

Even after demands were made for Memel and Danzig,

Two rather small pieces of land populated largely by Germans that wanted to be part of Germany.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Hektor » 6 years 6 months ago (Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:03 am)

Nüziders wrote:Munich is important because, again, it provides the context for the UK's declaration of war. The Munich Agreement had specifically stipulated that the Sudetenland would be the final territorial demand that Hitler would make.
No it had not. Read the agreement. It doesn't have anything to do with any other territorial demands.
Nüziders wrote: Then, not only did Hitler march into Prague and dismantle Czechoslovakia.
He was asked by the Czechs to do so, after they were facing serious problems. And then Hitler found there what Bush never couldn't find in Iraq :lol: .
Nüziders wrote: THat wasn't in the agreement, and even then, the UK did not declare war. Even after demands were made for Memel and Danzig, it was hoped that a peaceful resolution could be found, at least by Chamberlain, if not the rest of his cabinet.
And what would this have to do with Britain anyway? The Memel issue is between Lithuania and Germany. The Danzig issue is only between Danzig and Germany and would just have touched on Poland's interests. The corridor is between Poland and Germany. And the fact that the Poles blocked access to East-Prussia was already an act of aggression among many others. So there were many issues for Germany that required urgent attention.
Nüziders wrote:Further, the UK never guaranteed Poland's security against the USSR — only against Germany. See the secret protocol, which was agreed upon by Poland: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Agreement ... ndon_(1939)
The content in question:
The Government of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland and the Polish Government are agreed upon the following interpretation of the Agreement of Mutual Assistance signed this day as alone authentic and binding.
1. (a) By the expression "a European Power" employed in the Agreement is to be understood Germany. (b) In the event of action within the meaning of Article 1 or 2 of the Agreement by a European Power other than Germany, the Contracting Parties will consult together on the measures to be taken in common.
2. (a) The two Governments will from time to time determine by mutual agreement the hypothetical cases of action by Germany coming within the ambit of Article 2 of the Agreement. (b) Until such time as the two Governments have agreed to modify the following provisions of this paragraph, they will consider: that the case contemplated by paragraph (1) of the Article 2 of the Agreement is that of the Free City of Danzig;

This is priceless! That's a conspiracy to wage war against Germany. Such an agreement alone is already legitimate cause to war and that's when we leave aside all the other valid reasons. They are basically giving each other a signed blank declaration for making war against Germany.


Some podcasts shedding light on the issue:
The Mark Weber Report: Some Myths About the Origin of World War II
February 29, 2012
Much of what we’re told about the how World War II began is misleading, distorted or just plain untrue. It’s often claimed, for example, that after taking power Hitler moved quickly to build a large army and air force to conquer Europe. In fact, and as reputable scholars have quietly acknowledged, Third Reich rearmament in the years before the outbreak of war in 1939 was remarkably modest. Hitler neither wanted nor planned for a major war. He sincerely sought peace with Britain and France. His main motive in attacking Poland was to secure freedom and basic rights for the Germans of the city-state of Danzig, and safety and freedom for the increasingly dispossessed and persecuted minority ethnic Germans of Poland. The British and French declarations of war against Germany, which were secretly encouraged by US President Roosevelt, transformed the limited German-Polish conflict into a major, European-wide war.
http://reasonradionetwork.com/20120229/ ... rld-war-ii


The Mark Weber Report: More Myths About the Origin of World War II
March 7, 2012


We’re often told that Hitler started World War II. The reality is not so simple. In early 1939, Hitler asked Poland’s leaders for a peaceful resolution of the long-standing Danzig issue by permitting the city-state to return to Germany, in accord with the wishes of its people. But the Poles rejected a diplomatic solution, confident that they would prevail in any armed clash, and emboldened by a British pledge of military support in case of war. In the months that followed, tensions between Germany and Poland worsened, with growing violence against Poland’s ethnic German minority population. As the outstanding British historians A. J. P. Taylor and B. H. Liddell- Hart, along with other scholars, have pointed out, Hitler did not want and did not prepare for a general war in 1939. He sincerely sought peace with Britain and France. US President Franklin Roosevelt secretly encouraged Britain, France and Poland to adopt belligerently anti-German policies, and to reject any peaceful resolution of the German grievances. The British and French declarations of war against Germany transformed a limited German-Polish conflict into a global war. As often happens in history, leaders in all the major countries involved badly miscalculated in 1939.
http://reasonradionetwork.com/20120307/ ... rld-war-ii

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Nüziders » 6 years 6 months ago (Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:35 am)

It would be nice if my responses were released so I could respond to this stuff...

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Re: When the USSR invaded Poland, Britain was silent

Postby Mortimer » 6 years 6 months ago (Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:45 am)

Nüziders wrote:Munich is important because, again, it provides the context for the UK's declaration of war. The Munich Agreement had specifically stipulated that the Sudetenland would be the final territorial demand that Hitler would make. Then, not only did Hitler march into Prague and dismantle Czechoslovakia. THat wasn't in the agreement, and even then, the UK did not declare war. Even after demands were made for Memel and Danzig, it was hoped that a peaceful resolution could be found, at least by Chamberlain, if not the rest of his cabinet.

Further, the UK never guaranteed Poland's security against the USSR — only against Germany. See the secret protocol, which was agreed upon by Poland: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Agreement ... ndon_(1939)

But Poland also took territory from Czechia and Slovakia. See the section on World War II here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2% ... _conflicts
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.


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