Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 1 year 4 months ago (Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:50 am)

Depth Charge wrote:I'm still fascinated by the question; where would the Soviets have stopped, if they struck first?

A surprise attack on Germany, with 30,000 state of the art tanks and millions of men (Suvorov says there were plans for 18 million (!) reservists) would mean that Germany could not prevail. Then, on the other side of Germany, France had already been decimated. Spain too. Why stop there and leave the Portuguese coast open? Portugal is a strip of defenceless coastal land.

There'd be no reason for the largest army in human history to say no to these open goals.
....


In short: The Soviet Plan was to "export the Revolution" by military means. They'd stop once they'd meet matching resisstance.
My take is they'd first cut of Germany from the oil supply. That way undercutting meaningful resistance.
Himmler mentions that even in a speech in front of an internal circle. Would have to look that up again though.

One can also have a look at literature:
https://archive.org/details/PatrickBuch ... WorldWarII
Here is the official German stance:
https://archive.org/details/Proklamatio ... tigenAmtes

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Depth Charge » 1 year 3 months ago (Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:43 pm)

"They'd stop once they meet matching resistance".

Under this criteria, there is no matching resistance in continental Europe. You have a 'through lane' to the Portuguese coast. France had been decimated, so had Spain.

Surely the next big strategical question is Britain, Airstrip One. The Soviets cannot permit it to become a backdoor for the Americans. I would submit that Operation Sea Lion, a failure for the Germans, would be a success for the Soviets. Why? They had the barges, they had the amphibious tanks, they had 298 submarines, they had the airborne troops, the moral and resources. Ireland would also be conquered.

From there, there is no feasible reason to not conquer the colonies in Africa, drive down through Georgia and link up through the Suez, for total domination.

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 11 months 4 days ago (Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:42 pm)

Werd wrote:https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/greece-wants-ww2-reparations-from-germany/
....

But this war happened nevertheless, so could it be that in reality is was precisely the other way around? That that long list of enemies was being lined up against Germany? That was indeed the case. WW2 was a conspiracy of Roosevelt and Stalin plus paid British stooge Churchill against Germany, using Poland as useful idiot. Churchill, who headed the British war party, managed to push Chamberlain aside and take over government. The US pushed Britain and France in the war against Germany, here Chamberlain’s confirmation. Britain pushed Norway, Holland, Belgium and Greece out of neutrality, Britain had Canada, Australia, India and others in their empire, France had Morocco, Algeria and others and finally the USSR supported the Yugoslav coup, directed against Germany. That’s what we mean when we say that all countries mentioned were lined up against Germany.
...
West front, same story, see map. Both the Dutch and Belgians, like the Norwegians, had given in to allied pressure to allow overpass to British and French troops on their way to the Ruhr area. The Germans preempted the attack and occupied Holland and Belgium, read Goering’s NMT testimony about why Germany invaded Holland and Belgium [avalon.law.yale.edu] or Dutch-Jewish court historian Lou de Jong with his late revelations. The upshot of the allied experiences at the north and west front was one of total surprise about the speed with which the Germans advanced. Stalin understood that in 1940 he was not yet ready for war against Germany.
....


Image

Here is what Lou de Jong wrote in his Magnum Opus "Het Koninkrijk Der Nederlanden In De Tweede Wereldoorlog" about the neutrality of the Netherlands:
https://archive.org/details/LoeDeJongHe ... al/page/n1
... and I think he's putting it mildly.
Bear in mind where the business interests of the Dutch Elites were at that time. Lots of joint ventures with British companies. On the other hand the overall economy of the Netherlands depends on a good relationship with Germany: Industrial goods came from there and Germany was a market that also imported via the Netherlands.

I think the whole affair may be worthwhile a thread on its own.

* Note: the wordpress post has been removed, but it's still available at archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150918110 ... m-germany/

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:38 am)

Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

There is now a German video series on Suworow out:
https://archive.org/details/UeberfallAu ... riffskrieg

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Mortimer » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:57 am)

Hektor wrote:
Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 10 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:58 pm)

Mortimer wrote:....
Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union


Possibly, but not necessarily censorship. There can be technical reasons. But it is telling that in mainstream historiography certain snippets citing NS-Documentation are presented, while important documents are simply omitted or ignored.

As for the link not working, fortunately there is archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170509192 ... etter.html

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Mortimer » 8 months 2 weeks ago (Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:38 am)

A recent interview with Viktor Suvorov from December 2018 from UK newspaper The Guardian. The article concentrates mostly on his defection from the GRU and his opinion of recent spy scandals but does mention his book Icebreaker. It reads "The book undermined the idea that the USSR was an innocent party, dragged into the second world war. Russian liberals supported Suvorov's thesis; it now has broad acceptance among historians".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/d ... r-suvorov/
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Why Germany Attacked the Soviet Union Hitler’s Declaration of War Against the USSR - Two Historic Documents

Postby Goethe » 7 months 1 day ago (Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:44 pm)

Obviously related to
Mark Weber has a blockbuster article at The Unz Review.

Why Germany Attacked the Soviet Union
Hitler’s Declaration of War Against the USSR - Two Historic Documents

full text:
http://www.unz.com/article/why-germany- ... iet-union/

You simply must read it.
The Zionist propagandists are besides themselves over this

Image
Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop announces Germany’s declaration of war against the Soviet Union. At a meeting room packed with foreign correspondents and journalists representing the German press, he reads the text of the lengthy diplomatic note to the Soviet government, which explains in some detail the reasons for the decision to attack the USSR. His reading of the statement on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, is broadcast to the world on German radio.

Image
Joseph Goebbels announces to the world the stunning news that German, Finnish and Romanian forces were launching an attack against the Soviet Union. Broadcasting from Berlin early Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, the Reich Minister reads the text of Hitler’s proclamation explaining the background and reasons for the attack – the largest military campaign in history.

In addition to the article:
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:44 am)

Not sure if this was posted, from the CIA library

What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa
Intelligence in Recent Public Literature
By David E. Murphy. New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 2005. 310 pages.
Reviewed by Donald P. Steury

At the heart of the dispute are an article and a book by “Viktor Suvorov,” a pseudonym for a former Soviet staff officer now resident in the West. Suvorov argues that the German attack on the Soviet Union only just preempted a planned Soviet attack on the German Reich. In support of this thesis, he points to the buildup of Soviet troops on the border with German-occupied territory in 1941 and the strategic doctrine of the Red Army, which eschewed defense in favor of a rapid, echeloned offense.[3] In Germany, Stalin’s supposed planned offensive has been seen by some right-wing elements as a validation of Hitler’s decision to attack eastward. A preventative war makes sense of an action that is, on many levels, otherwise strategically inexplicable. Since this is a discussion of a book about Stalin and the Soviet Union, the German debate need not detain us further, save to note that Russian extremists have put forward a mirror image of the German argument: Stalin, realizing he was about to be attacked by Hitler, mobilized his army on the border for a preemptive assault

Certainly the point of dispute here—Stalin’s forward deployment of his military forces—did not make sense from a purely defensive viewpoint.

Historian Gabriel Gorodetsky has advanced the Russian interpretation that the “State Frontiers Defense Plan 1941,” which put Soviet troops on the borders, was intended as “a demonstration of force” rather than an attempt to “safeguard security.”
https://archive.is/bVIU or https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... n_Knew.htm

It probably can't be known for sure why the Soviets stacked forces on their western border, whether it was part of their demonstrated habit for invading other countries or purely to flex at Germany, but it is a fact that they did it and that it was not a defensive position.


Full book can be read here: https://archive.is/f9d35
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 pm)

Viktor Suvorov was a former USSR military intelligence operative. He defected in 1978 to the UK, and wrote a paper "The Attack of Germany on the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941" as a student. He was given access to the Soviet archives for his research, and found that there was a huge amassing of Soviet troops on the German border in June 22, 1941. The USSR would have certainly conquered all of Europe if Hitler did not invade the USSR. Suvorov writes in 'The Chief Culprit' that Hitler did not even fully prepare for the invasion, he refused to wait until the Soviets attacked first.


FULL BOOK: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II - Viktor Suvorov
https://archive.org/details/TheChiefCul ... orSuvorov/ or https://archive.is/J7kka

The Chief Culprit - A Review. By Joseph Bishop
https://codoh.com/library/document/1906/

The Chief Culprit: Stalin’s Grand Design to Start World War II. Reviewed by: George Michael
https://archive.is/s6fBC


Video lecture:

In his recent book “The Chief Culprit” the bestselling author Viktor Suvorov probes newly released Soviet documents and reevaluates existing material to analyze Stalin’s strategic design to conquer Europe and the reasons behind his controversial support for Nazi Germany.

He argues that Stalin was caught just days before launching his own assault into Central Europe. Thus the Red Army’s offensive posture rendered it uniquely vulnerable to German attack.

A former Soviet army intelligence officer (true name Vladimir Rezun), the author explains that Stalin’s strategy leading up to World War II grew from Vladimir Lenin’s belief that if World War I did not ignite the worldwide Communist revolution, then a second world war would be needed to achieve it. Stalin saw Nazi Germany as the power that would fight and weaken capitalist countries so that Soviet armies could then sweep across Europe. Suvorov reveals how Stalin conspired with German leaders to bypass the Versailles Treaty, which forbade German rearmament, and secretly trained German engineers and officers and provided bases and factories for war. He also calls attention to the 1939 nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and Germany that allowed Hitler to proceed with his plans to invade Poland, fomenting war in Europe.

Suvorov debunks the theory that Stalin was duped by Hitler and that the Soviet Union was a victim of Nazi aggression. Instead, he makes the case that Stalin neither feared Hitler nor mistakenly trusted him. Suvorov maintains that after Germany occupied Poland, defeated France, and started to prepare for an invasion of Great Britain, Hitler’s intelligence services detected the Soviet Union’s preparations for a major war against Germany. This detection, he argues, led to Germany’s preemptive war plan and the launch of an invasion of the USSR. Stalin emerges from the pages of this book as a genius consumed by the vision of a worldwide Communist revolution at any cost–a leader who wooed Hitler and Germany in his own effort to conquer the world. In contradicting traditional theories about Soviet planning, the book is certain to provoke debate among historians throughout the world.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 3 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:09 pm)

John Wear has an excellent article on his blog:


Germany’s Incredible Courage To Defend Europe: How Hitler’s Invasion of The Soviet Union Surprised Stalin
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/11/ ... ed-stalin/
or https://archive.is/F6Co7

He discusses Viktor Suvorov (see above) and how Hitler launched his attack on the USSR without adequate preparation, due to the time constraints he had. Hitler understood he had no choice but to attack as soon as possible, before the Soviets began their assault on Europe.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:40 am)

David Thompson is pretty confident that the 'pre-emptive war' has been trashed. He links various posts that supposedly show this. https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=620178#620178
thompson.PNG


I'm not sure what to make of all this. Although I do know Thompson likes to spam quote Nuremberg documents. Uncritically too.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63302
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=9746
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61151
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=54484
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61243
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=60917
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:02 am)

Why would he mention "The threat of Bolshevism" while Germany had a non-Aggression pact with Russia? This guy's argument that Hitler should have explained his plan to pre-emptively strike Russia before he actually did it is nonsense. It was a surprise attack. There are numerous anti-Communist quotes by Hitler prior to June 1941; various mentions of the threat Bolshevism had on all of Europe. Even though there was an uneasy non-aggredeion pact from the partition of Poland, Hitler hated communism on ideological grounds and swore to fight communism after they betrayed Germany at the end of the First World War. Here are some quotes from after the attack:

Adolf Hitler, 20 January 1942:
And if a British archbishop prays to God to send Bolshevism over Germany and Europe as a scourge, I can only say: "It will not come over Germany but whether it will come over England is a different question." And then this old sinner and evil-doer can pray in an attempt to keep this British hazard at bay.



Adolf Hitler, 3 October 1941:
Only when, from week to week, did I feel more that Russia now saw the hour come to take action against us when, at a moment when we had scarcely three divisions in East Prussia, did twenty-two Russians accumulate there, as I gradually got the pad, As airfield after airfield arose on our border, as one division after the other from the whole gigantic empire was pulled together, I was obliged to be worried on my part as well. For there is no excuse in the past for an oversight, an apology that consists, for example, in the subsequent declaration: "I did not notice this or I did not believe it"

„Erst als ich von Woche zu Woche mehr empfand, daß Rußland nunmehr die Stunde gekommen sah, gegen uns vorzugehen, als in einem Augenblick, da wir knappe drei Divisionen in Ostpreußen besaßen, zweiundzwanzig russische sich dort ansammelten, als ich allmählich die Unterlage erhielt, wie an unserer Grenze Flugplatz um Flugplatz entstand, wie eine Division nach der anderen aus dem ganzen riesenhaften Weltreich hier zusammengezogen wurde, da war ich ja nun verpflichtet, auch meinerseits besorgt zu sein. Denn es gibt in der Geschichte keine Entschuldigung für ein Versehen, eine Entschuldigung, die etwa darin besteht, daß man nachträglich erklärt: Ich habe das nicht bemerkt, oder ich habe es nicht geglaubt“
https://archive.is/TjeHv



Adolf Hitler, October 1941:
On the 22nd of June we had a gate open which we did not know what was behind it. We had to expect a gas and bacteria war, and the uncertainty weighed on me like a horror

„Am 22. Juni hat sich uns ein Tor geöffnet, von dem wir nicht wußten, was dahinter liegt. Wir mußten mit einem Gas- und Bakterienkrieg rechnen, und die Ungewißheit lastete wie ein Grauen auf mir.“
In: Monologe im Führerhauptquartier – die Aufzeichnungen Heinrich Heims, herausgegeben von Werner Jochmann, Wilhelm Heyne Verlag, München 1980, ISBN 3-453-01600-9 (Aufzeichnung vom 17./18.10.1941, Seite 93)


Hitler's speech about his declaration of war on the USSR:
On the morning of June 22, 1941, Reich Minister Joseph Goebbels announced to the world the startling news that German forces, together with Finnish and Romanian troops, had struck against the Soviet Union. On German radio he broadcast Adolf Hitler’s historic proclamation justifying the attack – the largest military offensive in history. Among other things, he said that Stalin had massed some 160 divisions in readiness to strike westwards. In reality, more than 200 Soviet divisions were assembled against Germany and Europe. Hitler and his generals had seriously underestimated the Soviet danger – a fateful miscalculation that ultimately proved catastrophic. To the Italian leader Benito Mussolini, Hitler wrote that deciding to attack Soviet Russia was “the most difficult decision of my life.” And even though it meant engaging Germany in a two-front war, something he had specifically warned against in Mein Kampf, this was a decision he never regretted. Hitler’s strike against the Soviet Union, code-named “Barbarossa,” has often been called his worst single military blunder because the titanic clash ended four years later with his suicide in his Berlin command post and Germany’s unconditional surrender. The 1941 German-led assault has often been portrayed as a treacherous and unprovoked surprise attack against a peaceable ally, motivated above all by grandiose dreams of empire. In recent years, however, a growing number of historians have assembled considerable evidence that validates key points made by Hitler and the German government, and which shows that the Soviets were preparing a massive assault against Germany and Europe. Because Hitler’s proclamation of June 22, 1941, helps to explain his motives for turning against Soviet Russia, it is a document of historic importance. The text of this specially prepared translation is given here in full.
...
"Nevertheless, a new, hate-filled policy of encirclement against Germany began immediately. Internally and externally there came into being that plot, familiar to all of us, between Jews and democrats, Bolsheviks and reactionaries, with the sole aim of inhibiting the establishment of the new German people's state, and of plunging the Reich anew into impotence and misery."
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n6p50_Hitler.html



The historian Stefan Scheil stated in his work "Preventive War Barbarossa - questions, facts, answers" (Der Historiker Stefan Scheil konstatiert in seinem Werk „Präventivkrieg Barbarossa – Fragen, Fakten, Antworten“):
If the Operation Barbarossa can not be classified as a preventive war, the term preventive war has lost its meaning at all.

„Wenn das Unternehmen Barbarossa nicht als Präventivkrieg eingestuft werden kann, hat der Begriff Präventivkrieg seinen Sinn überhaupt verloren.“




Milovan Djilas writes in his book "Conversations with Stalin" („Gespräche mit Stalin“):
The Russians also know exactly how the Second World War came about. Stalin even admitted his authorship of the German-Soviet war when he announced Djilas: 'The war will soon be over. In fifteen or twenty years we will have recovered, and then we will try again.

„Die Russen wissen auch genauestens, wie der 2.Weltkrieg entstanden ist. Stalin hat sogar seine Urheberschaft am deutsch-sowjetischen Krieg eingestanden, als er Djilas ankündigte: ‚Der Krieg wird bald vorbei sein. In fünfzehn oder zwanzig Jahren werden wir uns erholt haben, und dann werden wir es noch einmal versuchen.‘“
http://www.vho.org/D/Staatsbriefe/Werner7_12.html


Johann Ludwig Graf Schwerin von Krosigk:
For four years, Germany has unparalleled in a hero's struggle under the auspices of its last strength, the bulwark of Europe and thus at the same time formed the world against the red tide. It could have saved Europe from Bolshevism if it had had its back.

„Vier Jahre lang hat Deutschland in einem Heldenkampf ohnegleichen unter Aufbietung seiner letzten Kraft das Bollwerk Europas und damit zugleich der Welt gegen die rote Flut gebildet. Es hätte Europa vor dem Bolschewismus bewahren können, wenn es den Rücken frei gehabt hätte.“
Broadcasting speech as German Foreign Minister of May 3, 1945


Historian Bernd Schwipper:
After evaluating about 3500 Russian documents, intelligence information and many other documents, I have come to the conclusion, especially in comparison with the deployment and Aufmarschzahlen the Wehrmacht that it was a preventive war of the Wehrmacht. The Red Army acted, the Wehrmacht reacted.

„Nach Auswertung von circa 3500 russischen Dokumenten, Aufklärungsinformationen und vielen anderen Dokumenten bin ich zu der Auffassung gelangt, insbesondere im Vergleich mit den Aufmarschzeiten und Aufmarschzahlen der Wehrmacht, daß es sich um einen Präventivkrieg der Wehrmacht gehandelt hat. Die Rote Armee agierte, die Wehrmacht reagierte.“
Bernd Schwipper (2015) Deutschland im Visier Stalins: Der Weg der Roten Armee in den europäischen Krieg und der Aufmarsch der Wehrmacht 1941 - Eine vergleichende Studie anhand russischer Dokumente
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby HMSendeavour » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:01 am)

I see what you mean Lamprecht, and I agree with you but in any case the Hitler quotes you gave are all post Barbarossa. This means that anyone wishing to continue Thompson's point would simply say that Hitler manifested that reason ex post facto to move the blame from himself. Whenever the facts or even Hitler says something they do not like they simply declare it as duplicitous on his part. The point is that they need Hitler not only to have acted against the Soviets unprovoked but they need him doing it willingly and knowingly, so if we have a situation in which Hitler acts but is sure that it's preventative they cannot fully blame him. Or at least, they cannot turn him into an actor knowingly committing an evil act.

What struck me was how the deterioration between Germany and Russia occurred. Usually with Stalin invading countries and Hitler secretly being concerned. I took a screenshot from a wiki page which goes a little bit into detail on this regarding Finland and Romania.

secret protocols leads to deterioriation.JPG


I'm sure there's heaps of info if you follow the citations or look elsewhere. The point I want to make taking this into consideration is that Hitler even though he signed (or Ribbentrop did) the 'secret protocols' which as Werner Maser notes in Fälschung, Dichtung und Wahrheit über Hitler und Stalin, Olzog, Munich 2004
that the

definition of “spheres of interest” was not considered to be equal to the right to invade and annex other countries, as a German protest note declared on Nov. 3, 1940. (p. 197)
https://codoh.com/library/document/1748/
Legends_and_Truth_Revealed_by_Werner_Maser_Hitler_biographer_and_veteran_Third_Reich_Historian.png


Hitler was clearly not satisfied with the pact and this comes into play when you realise Hitler would not have acted this way if he agreed to the secret protocols in the beginning, which he didn't. The protocols were forced onto Ribbentrop last minute in Moscow surrounded by Stalin and his henchmen, the Soviets knew the Germans needed the pact to be concluded ASAP before taking on Poland and potentially war from the west. So Ribbentrop calls Hitler and asks him about it, Hitler says yes (I'm sure he'd have agreed to anything if it meant being able to defend his rear from the West if they tried to also conclude a pact with Stalin which we know they were) Schultze Rhonhof goes into detail on pages 545-551 in his book 1939 - the War that Had Many Fathers

548.jpg


549.jpg


Here are two pages from the book which should be of use.

I see Hitler dissatisfaction with the protocols to be very important evidence in regards to his concern over Russia and their potential aims.

Hitler echos his dissatisfaction in the secret recording we have of him to Marshal Manheim about Molotov.

Hitler on Molotov.JPG


Furthur more, from an Inconvenient History article, https://web.archive.org/web/20171107210344/https://revblog.codoh.com/2011/02/the-latest-effort-to-combat-denial-i-e-holocaust-revisionism/

Just briefly to the war with the Soviet Union: At the meeting with Molotov in Berlin in November 1940, Hitler told him that because of the war with England, Germany had been forced to advance into territories in which it had no interest in.[13] Hitler than stated that Germany's Lebensraum had been greatly expanded, and even though both, Germany and the Soviet Union, might not have achieved what they set out to do, they could be satisfied nevertheless.[14] But Molotov demanded more concessions from Germany[15] and following this meeting Hitler realized that war with the Soviet Union was inevitable. Barbarossa, the strike against the Soviet Union, was a preventive strike, though establishment historians are still loath to admit this in spite of the growing evidence.


On October 29th 1942 Hitler writes a letter to Sven Hedin about Poland in 1939 and also how '"Europe would simply have been steam-rollered by the weight of the Bolshevik war machine," From Werner Masers, Hitler's Letters and notes, pp. 192 here's the pictures

Hitler Letter to Sven Hedin and Speech in 1942 1.JPG

Hitler Letter to Sven Hedin and Speech in 1942 2.JPG

Hitler Letter to Sven Hedin and Speech in 1942 3.JPG


Granted this is also post Barbarossa, but it's in a letter that Hitler would presumably not expect to ever see the light of day. There's no reason to think in my mind that this isn't Hitler's true feelings.

I do however, have a rare fact which proves Hitler considered Barbarossa a preventative war. From David Irving's original 1977 Hitler's War papermac editions. I'm not surprised these pages/quotes haven't made the rounds because I doubt many people have bothered to read this edition of Hitler's War which has these passages. This is even more impressive when one understands that this was before Irving became the historian he is today, he was much less "redpilled" if you will. Particularly on the Jews considering he hadn't yet dealt with all the trouble they were to put him through.

Hitler's own mind was made up on the Russian campaign, but he still wanted to convince Ribbentrop. He knew he would not win over the foreign ministry as such. He considered its ways conservative, its procedures ponderous, and its attitude to the Party reactionary. Since its failure to give him advance warning of the Belgrade putsch, the ministry's stock had sunk even lower in his estimation. Hitler's tendency to direct foreign policy himself, using Ribbentrop only as a secretary, was strongly exposed again in "Barbarossa." He had decided to appoint Rosenberg, to manage the new eastern domain--impressed, apparently, by Rosenberg's early writings on the Bolshevik menace. Small wonder that Hewel's diary shows Ribbentrop "off sick" for most of April 1941--malingering, furious at this fresh erosion of his powers. On about April 25, Hitler telephoned Ribbentrop in Vienna, summoned him to his special-train headquarters, and told him he had decided finally to attack Russia. Ribbentrop later recalled: He said that all the military Intelligence reaching him confirmed that the Soviet Union was preparing in a big way along the entire front from the Baltic to the Black Sea. He was not willing top be taken by surprise once he had recognised a danger. Moscow's pact with the Serbian putschist government was a downright provocation to Germany and a clear departure from the German-Russian treaty of friendship. In this conversation I recommended that he listen first to out [Moscow] ambassador, Count [Werner von der] Schulenburg. . .I wanted to try a diplomatic settlement with Moscow first. But Hitler refused any such attempt and forbade me to discuss the matter with anybody; no amount of diplomacy could change the Russian attitude, as he now recognised it, but it might cheat him of the important tactical element of surprise when he attacked. He requested me to put on a show of complete support for his view, and explained that one day the West would understand why he had rejected the Soviet demands and attacked the East.

Thus Hitler regarded "Barbarossa" as that most controversial of campaigns--a preventative war.

"What can a war historian tell us about the problems of fighting preventive wars?" he asked Wilhelm Scheidt at this time. Scheidt, a young, well-groomed cavalry captain, had just been introduced as adjutant to Colonel Walter Scherff, Hitler's personal historian. Scheidt knew about "Barbarossa," and replied, "Only somebody with the deepest sense of responsibility can take such a decision, and then only after looking at it from every possible angle. Because he will be risking immense dangers in starting such a war." He would have to accept the odium of being the aggressor, in return for tactical advantages of surprise. But Hitler mused out loud, "Britain will just have to climb down, once we have defeated her last ally on the continent. If she does not, we shall destroy her, with all the means that we shall have when all of Europe as far as the Urals is at our feet." - David Irving, Hitler's War Volume 1, (Papermac, 1977), pp. 230-231


What is clear to me, as it should be to others, is Hitler kept his true intentions so secret that the Soviets would have no idea that he knew. You even have Hitler seeking guidance from historians to reaffirm what he must do. This shows us Hitler is a careful man, one who will take the actions he must to secure victory and in truth take the most important military gambles necessary. This also shows us Hitler was a great tactician as he most certainly made the correct choice even if the overall campaign failed in the end due to American intervention and Italy's Greece blunder.

Perhaps you or anyone else here knows of what the Generals thought about Barbarossa and Hitler's intentions? Whether their diaries or memoirs could illuminate us on this fact.

I know that Leon Degrelle in his book "Hitler for a Thousand Years" provides some insight into why Hitler invaded the Soviet Union when he did, I do not have an English copy of this book so I cannot post a quote, but I'm sure he there has some insight that would back us up.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Lamprecht
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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:35 am)

Good stuff. From your excerpt of "Hitler's war" by Irving:
On about April 25, Hitler telephoned Ribbentrop in Vienna, summoned him to his special-train headquarters, and told him he had decided finally to attack Russia. Ribbentrop later recalled: He said that all the military Intelligence reaching him confirmed that the Soviet Union was preparing in a big way along the entire front from the Baltic to the Black Sea. He was not willing top be taken by surprise once he had recognised a danger. Moscow's pact with the Serbian putschist government was a downright provocation to Germany and a clear departure from the German-Russian treaty of friendship. In this conversation I recommended that he listen first to out [Moscow] ambassador, Count [Werner von der] Schulenburg... I wanted to try a diplomatic settlement with Moscow first. But Hitler refused any such attempt and forbade me to discuss the matter with anybody; no amount of diplomacy could change the Russian attitude, as he now recognised it, but it might cheat him of the important tactical element of surprise when he attacked. He requested me to put on a show of complete support for his view, and explained that one day the West would understand why he had rejected the Soviet demands and attacked the East.


And so the question of "Why didn't Hitler claim he knew of a Soviet offensive plan before he did his counterattack?" appears to be conclusively answered.

Naturally, the book can be read for free here:

DAVID IRVING: "Hitler's War" (1977 edition)
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hitler/1977/ ... /list.html

On chapter #14 "A Bitter Victory"
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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