Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

All aspects including lead-in to hostilities and results.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3292
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 11 months 1 week ago (Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:50 am)

Depth Charge wrote:I'm still fascinated by the question; where would the Soviets have stopped, if they struck first?

A surprise attack on Germany, with 30,000 state of the art tanks and millions of men (Suvorov says there were plans for 18 million (!) reservists) would mean that Germany could not prevail. Then, on the other side of Germany, France had already been decimated. Spain too. Why stop there and leave the Portuguese coast open? Portugal is a strip of defenceless coastal land.

There'd be no reason for the largest army in human history to say no to these open goals.
....


In short: The Soviet Plan was to "export the Revolution" by military means. They'd stop once they'd meet matching resisstance.
My take is they'd first cut of Germany from the oil supply. That way undercutting meaningful resistance.
Himmler mentions that even in a speech in front of an internal circle. Would have to look that up again though.

One can also have a look at literature:
https://archive.org/details/PatrickBuch ... WorldWarII
Here is the official German stance:
https://archive.org/details/Proklamatio ... tigenAmtes

Depth Charge
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:32 pm

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Depth Charge » 10 months 1 day ago (Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:43 pm)

"They'd stop once they meet matching resistance".

Under this criteria, there is no matching resistance in continental Europe. You have a 'through lane' to the Portuguese coast. France had been decimated, so had Spain.

Surely the next big strategical question is Britain, Airstrip One. The Soviets cannot permit it to become a backdoor for the Americans. I would submit that Operation Sea Lion, a failure for the Germans, would be a success for the Soviets. Why? They had the barges, they had the amphibious tanks, they had 298 submarines, they had the airborne troops, the moral and resources. Ireland would also be conquered.

From there, there is no feasible reason to not conquer the colonies in Africa, drive down through Georgia and link up through the Suez, for total domination.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3292
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 6 months 15 hours ago (Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:42 pm)

Werd wrote:https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/greece-wants-ww2-reparations-from-germany/
....

But this war happened nevertheless, so could it be that in reality is was precisely the other way around? That that long list of enemies was being lined up against Germany? That was indeed the case. WW2 was a conspiracy of Roosevelt and Stalin plus paid British stooge Churchill against Germany, using Poland as useful idiot. Churchill, who headed the British war party, managed to push Chamberlain aside and take over government. The US pushed Britain and France in the war against Germany, here Chamberlain’s confirmation. Britain pushed Norway, Holland, Belgium and Greece out of neutrality, Britain had Canada, Australia, India and others in their empire, France had Morocco, Algeria and others and finally the USSR supported the Yugoslav coup, directed against Germany. That’s what we mean when we say that all countries mentioned were lined up against Germany.
...
West front, same story, see map. Both the Dutch and Belgians, like the Norwegians, had given in to allied pressure to allow overpass to British and French troops on their way to the Ruhr area. The Germans preempted the attack and occupied Holland and Belgium, read Goering’s NMT testimony about why Germany invaded Holland and Belgium [avalon.law.yale.edu] or Dutch-Jewish court historian Lou de Jong with his late revelations. The upshot of the allied experiences at the north and west front was one of total surprise about the speed with which the Germans advanced. Stalin understood that in 1940 he was not yet ready for war against Germany.
....


Image

Here is what Lou de Jong wrote in his Magnum Opus "Het Koninkrijk Der Nederlanden In De Tweede Wereldoorlog" about the neutrality of the Netherlands:
https://archive.org/details/LoeDeJongHe ... al/page/n1
... and I think he's putting it mildly.
Bear in mind where the business interests of the Dutch Elites were at that time. Lots of joint ventures with British companies. On the other hand the overall economy of the Netherlands depends on a good relationship with Germany: Industrial goods came from there and Germany was a market that also imported via the Netherlands.

I think the whole affair may be worthwhile a thread on its own.

* Note: the wordpress post has been removed, but it's still available at archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150918110 ... m-germany/

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3292
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 5 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:38 am)

Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

There is now a German video series on Suworow out:
https://archive.org/details/UeberfallAu ... riffskrieg

Mortimer
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Mortimer » 5 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:57 am)

Hektor wrote:
Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3292
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 5 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:58 pm)

Mortimer wrote:....
Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union


Possibly, but not necessarily censorship. There can be technical reasons. But it is telling that in mainstream historiography certain snippets citing NS-Documentation are presented, while important documents are simply omitted or ignored.

As for the link not working, fortunately there is archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170509192 ... etter.html

Mortimer
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Mortimer » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:38 am)

A recent interview with Viktor Suvorov from December 2018 from UK newspaper The Guardian. The article concentrates mostly on his defection from the GRU and his opinion of recent spy scandals but does mention his book Icebreaker. It reads "The book undermined the idea that the USSR was an innocent party, dragged into the second world war. Russian liberals supported Suvorov's thesis; it now has broad acceptance among historians".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/d ... r-suvorov/
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

Goethe
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:41 am

Why Germany Attacked the Soviet Union Hitler’s Declaration of War Against the USSR - Two Historic Documents

Postby Goethe » 1 month 3 weeks ago (Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:44 pm)

Obviously related to
Mark Weber has a blockbuster article at The Unz Review.

Why Germany Attacked the Soviet Union
Hitler’s Declaration of War Against the USSR - Two Historic Documents

full text:
http://www.unz.com/article/why-germany- ... iet-union/

You simply must read it.
The Zionist propagandists are besides themselves over this

Image
Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop announces Germany’s declaration of war against the Soviet Union. At a meeting room packed with foreign correspondents and journalists representing the German press, he reads the text of the lengthy diplomatic note to the Soviet government, which explains in some detail the reasons for the decision to attack the USSR. His reading of the statement on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, is broadcast to the world on German radio.

Image
Joseph Goebbels announces to the world the stunning news that German, Finnish and Romanian forces were launching an attack against the Soviet Union. Broadcasting from Berlin early Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, the Reich Minister reads the text of Hitler’s proclamation explaining the background and reasons for the attack – the largest military campaign in history.

In addition to the article:
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

User avatar
Lamprecht
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 2 weeks ago (Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:44 am)

Not sure if this was posted, from the CIA library

What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa
Intelligence in Recent Public Literature
By David E. Murphy. New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 2005. 310 pages.
Reviewed by Donald P. Steury

At the heart of the dispute are an article and a book by “Viktor Suvorov,” a pseudonym for a former Soviet staff officer now resident in the West. Suvorov argues that the German attack on the Soviet Union only just preempted a planned Soviet attack on the German Reich. In support of this thesis, he points to the buildup of Soviet troops on the border with German-occupied territory in 1941 and the strategic doctrine of the Red Army, which eschewed defense in favor of a rapid, echeloned offense.[3] In Germany, Stalin’s supposed planned offensive has been seen by some right-wing elements as a validation of Hitler’s decision to attack eastward. A preventative war makes sense of an action that is, on many levels, otherwise strategically inexplicable. Since this is a discussion of a book about Stalin and the Soviet Union, the German debate need not detain us further, save to note that Russian extremists have put forward a mirror image of the German argument: Stalin, realizing he was about to be attacked by Hitler, mobilized his army on the border for a preemptive assault

Certainly the point of dispute here—Stalin’s forward deployment of his military forces—did not make sense from a purely defensive viewpoint.

Historian Gabriel Gorodetsky has advanced the Russian interpretation that the “State Frontiers Defense Plan 1941,” which put Soviet troops on the borders, was intended as “a demonstration of force” rather than an attempt to “safeguard security.”
https://archive.is/bVIU or https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... n_Knew.htm

It probably can't be known for sure why the Soviets stacked forces on their western border, whether it was part of their demonstrated habit for invading other countries or purely to flex at Germany, but it is a fact that they did it and that it was not a defensive position.


Full book can be read here: https://archive.is/f9d35
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


Return to “WWII Europe / Atlantic Theater Revisionist Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest