Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

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Hektor
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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 6 months 19 hours ago (Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:50 am)

Depth Charge wrote:I'm still fascinated by the question; where would the Soviets have stopped, if they struck first?

A surprise attack on Germany, with 30,000 state of the art tanks and millions of men (Suvorov says there were plans for 18 million (!) reservists) would mean that Germany could not prevail. Then, on the other side of Germany, France had already been decimated. Spain too. Why stop there and leave the Portuguese coast open? Portugal is a strip of defenceless coastal land.

There'd be no reason for the largest army in human history to say no to these open goals.
....


In short: The Soviet Plan was to "export the Revolution" by military means. They'd stop once they'd meet matching resisstance.
My take is they'd first cut of Germany from the oil supply. That way undercutting meaningful resistance.
Himmler mentions that even in a speech in front of an internal circle. Would have to look that up again though.

One can also have a look at literature:
https://archive.org/details/PatrickBuch ... WorldWarII
Here is the official German stance:
https://archive.org/details/Proklamatio ... tigenAmtes



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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Depth Charge » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:43 pm)

"They'd stop once they meet matching resistance".

Under this criteria, there is no matching resistance in continental Europe. You have a 'through lane' to the Portuguese coast. France had been decimated, so had Spain.

Surely the next big strategical question is Britain, Airstrip One. The Soviets cannot permit it to become a backdoor for the Americans. I would submit that Operation Sea Lion, a failure for the Germans, would be a success for the Soviets. Why? They had the barges, they had the amphibious tanks, they had 298 submarines, they had the airborne troops, the moral and resources. Ireland would also be conquered.

From there, there is no feasible reason to not conquer the colonies in Africa, drive down through Georgia and link up through the Suez, for total domination.

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 3 weeks 1 day ago (Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:42 pm)

Werd wrote:https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/greece-wants-ww2-reparations-from-germany/
....

But this war happened nevertheless, so could it be that in reality is was precisely the other way around? That that long list of enemies was being lined up against Germany? That was indeed the case. WW2 was a conspiracy of Roosevelt and Stalin plus paid British stooge Churchill against Germany, using Poland as useful idiot. Churchill, who headed the British war party, managed to push Chamberlain aside and take over government. The US pushed Britain and France in the war against Germany, here Chamberlain’s confirmation. Britain pushed Norway, Holland, Belgium and Greece out of neutrality, Britain had Canada, Australia, India and others in their empire, France had Morocco, Algeria and others and finally the USSR supported the Yugoslav coup, directed against Germany. That’s what we mean when we say that all countries mentioned were lined up against Germany.
...
West front, same story, see map. Both the Dutch and Belgians, like the Norwegians, had given in to allied pressure to allow overpass to British and French troops on their way to the Ruhr area. The Germans preempted the attack and occupied Holland and Belgium, read Goering’s NMT testimony about why Germany invaded Holland and Belgium [avalon.law.yale.edu] or Dutch-Jewish court historian Lou de Jong with his late revelations. The upshot of the allied experiences at the north and west front was one of total surprise about the speed with which the Germans advanced. Stalin understood that in 1940 he was not yet ready for war against Germany.
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Image

Here is what Lou de Jong wrote in his Magnum Opus "Het Koninkrijk Der Nederlanden In De Tweede Wereldoorlog" about the neutrality of the Netherlands:
https://archive.org/details/LoeDeJongHe ... al/page/n1
... and I think he's putting it mildly.
Bear in mind where the business interests of the Dutch Elites were at that time. Lots of joint ventures with British companies. On the other hand the overall economy of the Netherlands depends on a good relationship with Germany: Industrial goods came from there and Germany was a market that also imported via the Netherlands.

I think the whole affair may be worthwhile a thread on its own.

* Note: the wordpress post has been removed, but it's still available at archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150918110 ... m-germany/

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 1 week 14 hours ago (Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:38 am)

Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

There is now a German video series on Suworow out:
https://archive.org/details/UeberfallAu ... riffskrieg

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Mortimer » 6 days 10 hours ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:57 am)

Hektor wrote:
Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 6 days 7 hours ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:58 pm)

Mortimer wrote:....
Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union


Possibly, but not necessarily censorship. There can be technical reasons. But it is telling that in mainstream historiography certain snippets citing NS-Documentation are presented, while important documents are simply omitted or ignored.

As for the link not working, fortunately there is archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170509192 ... etter.html


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