Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

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Hektor
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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 1 year 2 months ago (Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:50 am)

Depth Charge wrote:I'm still fascinated by the question; where would the Soviets have stopped, if they struck first?

A surprise attack on Germany, with 30,000 state of the art tanks and millions of men (Suvorov says there were plans for 18 million (!) reservists) would mean that Germany could not prevail. Then, on the other side of Germany, France had already been decimated. Spain too. Why stop there and leave the Portuguese coast open? Portugal is a strip of defenceless coastal land.

There'd be no reason for the largest army in human history to say no to these open goals.
....


In short: The Soviet Plan was to "export the Revolution" by military means. They'd stop once they'd meet matching resisstance.
My take is they'd first cut of Germany from the oil supply. That way undercutting meaningful resistance.
Himmler mentions that even in a speech in front of an internal circle. Would have to look that up again though.

One can also have a look at literature:
https://archive.org/details/PatrickBuch ... WorldWarII
Here is the official German stance:
https://archive.org/details/Proklamatio ... tigenAmtes

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Depth Charge » 1 year 1 month ago (Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:43 pm)

"They'd stop once they meet matching resistance".

Under this criteria, there is no matching resistance in continental Europe. You have a 'through lane' to the Portuguese coast. France had been decimated, so had Spain.

Surely the next big strategical question is Britain, Airstrip One. The Soviets cannot permit it to become a backdoor for the Americans. I would submit that Operation Sea Lion, a failure for the Germans, would be a success for the Soviets. Why? They had the barges, they had the amphibious tanks, they had 298 submarines, they had the airborne troops, the moral and resources. Ireland would also be conquered.

From there, there is no feasible reason to not conquer the colonies in Africa, drive down through Georgia and link up through the Suez, for total domination.

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 9 months 5 days ago (Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:42 pm)

Werd wrote:https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/greece-wants-ww2-reparations-from-germany/
....

But this war happened nevertheless, so could it be that in reality is was precisely the other way around? That that long list of enemies was being lined up against Germany? That was indeed the case. WW2 was a conspiracy of Roosevelt and Stalin plus paid British stooge Churchill against Germany, using Poland as useful idiot. Churchill, who headed the British war party, managed to push Chamberlain aside and take over government. The US pushed Britain and France in the war against Germany, here Chamberlain’s confirmation. Britain pushed Norway, Holland, Belgium and Greece out of neutrality, Britain had Canada, Australia, India and others in their empire, France had Morocco, Algeria and others and finally the USSR supported the Yugoslav coup, directed against Germany. That’s what we mean when we say that all countries mentioned were lined up against Germany.
...
West front, same story, see map. Both the Dutch and Belgians, like the Norwegians, had given in to allied pressure to allow overpass to British and French troops on their way to the Ruhr area. The Germans preempted the attack and occupied Holland and Belgium, read Goering’s NMT testimony about why Germany invaded Holland and Belgium [avalon.law.yale.edu] or Dutch-Jewish court historian Lou de Jong with his late revelations. The upshot of the allied experiences at the north and west front was one of total surprise about the speed with which the Germans advanced. Stalin understood that in 1940 he was not yet ready for war against Germany.
....


Image

Here is what Lou de Jong wrote in his Magnum Opus "Het Koninkrijk Der Nederlanden In De Tweede Wereldoorlog" about the neutrality of the Netherlands:
https://archive.org/details/LoeDeJongHe ... al/page/n1
... and I think he's putting it mildly.
Bear in mind where the business interests of the Dutch Elites were at that time. Lots of joint ventures with British companies. On the other hand the overall economy of the Netherlands depends on a good relationship with Germany: Industrial goods came from there and Germany was a market that also imported via the Netherlands.

I think the whole affair may be worthwhile a thread on its own.

* Note: the wordpress post has been removed, but it's still available at archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150918110 ... m-germany/

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 8 months 3 weeks ago (Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:38 am)

Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

There is now a German video series on Suworow out:
https://archive.org/details/UeberfallAu ... riffskrieg

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Mortimer » 8 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:57 am)

Hektor wrote:
Mortimer wrote:Letter from Adolf Hitler to Benito Mussolini outlining the reasons for going to war with the USSR -
http://www.comandosupremo.com/HitlerLetter.html
There is no reply listed but the Italian leader must have been in agreement with the decision as Italy declared war on the Soviet Union the same day as Germany - June 22 1941.

Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Hektor » 8 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:58 pm)

Mortimer wrote:....
Unfortunately the page gives a 404 error.

That website appears to have a new owner/operator and the only reason for not including this letter would have to be censorship. Regardless, the letter from Hitler to Mussolini can be found here - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union


Possibly, but not necessarily censorship. There can be technical reasons. But it is telling that in mainstream historiography certain snippets citing NS-Documentation are presented, while important documents are simply omitted or ignored.

As for the link not working, fortunately there is archive.org:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170509192 ... etter.html

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Mortimer » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:38 am)

A recent interview with Viktor Suvorov from December 2018 from UK newspaper The Guardian. The article concentrates mostly on his defection from the GRU and his opinion of recent spy scandals but does mention his book Icebreaker. It reads "The book undermined the idea that the USSR was an innocent party, dragged into the second world war. Russian liberals supported Suvorov's thesis; it now has broad acceptance among historians".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/d ... r-suvorov/
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Why Germany Attacked the Soviet Union Hitler’s Declaration of War Against the USSR - Two Historic Documents

Postby Goethe » 5 months 2 days ago (Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:44 pm)

Obviously related to
Mark Weber has a blockbuster article at The Unz Review.

Why Germany Attacked the Soviet Union
Hitler’s Declaration of War Against the USSR - Two Historic Documents

full text:
http://www.unz.com/article/why-germany- ... iet-union/

You simply must read it.
The Zionist propagandists are besides themselves over this

Image
Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop announces Germany’s declaration of war against the Soviet Union. At a meeting room packed with foreign correspondents and journalists representing the German press, he reads the text of the lengthy diplomatic note to the Soviet government, which explains in some detail the reasons for the decision to attack the USSR. His reading of the statement on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, is broadcast to the world on German radio.

Image
Joseph Goebbels announces to the world the stunning news that German, Finnish and Romanian forces were launching an attack against the Soviet Union. Broadcasting from Berlin early Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, the Reich Minister reads the text of Hitler’s proclamation explaining the background and reasons for the attack – the largest military campaign in history.

In addition to the article:
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 3 weeks ago (Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:44 am)

Not sure if this was posted, from the CIA library

What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa
Intelligence in Recent Public Literature
By David E. Murphy. New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 2005. 310 pages.
Reviewed by Donald P. Steury

At the heart of the dispute are an article and a book by “Viktor Suvorov,” a pseudonym for a former Soviet staff officer now resident in the West. Suvorov argues that the German attack on the Soviet Union only just preempted a planned Soviet attack on the German Reich. In support of this thesis, he points to the buildup of Soviet troops on the border with German-occupied territory in 1941 and the strategic doctrine of the Red Army, which eschewed defense in favor of a rapid, echeloned offense.[3] In Germany, Stalin’s supposed planned offensive has been seen by some right-wing elements as a validation of Hitler’s decision to attack eastward. A preventative war makes sense of an action that is, on many levels, otherwise strategically inexplicable. Since this is a discussion of a book about Stalin and the Soviet Union, the German debate need not detain us further, save to note that Russian extremists have put forward a mirror image of the German argument: Stalin, realizing he was about to be attacked by Hitler, mobilized his army on the border for a preemptive assault

Certainly the point of dispute here—Stalin’s forward deployment of his military forces—did not make sense from a purely defensive viewpoint.

Historian Gabriel Gorodetsky has advanced the Russian interpretation that the “State Frontiers Defense Plan 1941,” which put Soviet troops on the borders, was intended as “a demonstration of force” rather than an attempt to “safeguard security.”
https://archive.is/bVIU or https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... n_Knew.htm

It probably can't be known for sure why the Soviets stacked forces on their western border, whether it was part of their demonstrated habit for invading other countries or purely to flex at Germany, but it is a fact that they did it and that it was not a defensive position.


Full book can be read here: https://archive.is/f9d35
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 2 months 4 weeks ago (Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 pm)

Viktor Suvorov was a former USSR military intelligence operative. He defected in 1978 to the UK, and wrote a paper "The Attack of Germany on the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941" as a student. He was given access to the Soviet archives for his research, and found that there was a huge amassing of Soviet troops on the German border in June 22, 1941. The USSR would have certainly conquered all of Europe if Hitler did not invade the USSR. Suvorov writes in 'The Chief Culprit' that Hitler did not even fully prepare for the invasion, he refused to wait until the Soviets attacked first.


FULL BOOK: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II - Viktor Suvorov
https://archive.org/details/TheChiefCul ... orSuvorov/ or https://archive.is/J7kka

The Chief Culprit - A Review. By Joseph Bishop
https://codoh.com/library/document/1906/

The Chief Culprit: Stalin’s Grand Design to Start World War II. Reviewed by: George Michael
https://archive.is/s6fBC


Video lecture:

In his recent book “The Chief Culprit” the bestselling author Viktor Suvorov probes newly released Soviet documents and reevaluates existing material to analyze Stalin’s strategic design to conquer Europe and the reasons behind his controversial support for Nazi Germany.

He argues that Stalin was caught just days before launching his own assault into Central Europe. Thus the Red Army’s offensive posture rendered it uniquely vulnerable to German attack.

A former Soviet army intelligence officer (true name Vladimir Rezun), the author explains that Stalin’s strategy leading up to World War II grew from Vladimir Lenin’s belief that if World War I did not ignite the worldwide Communist revolution, then a second world war would be needed to achieve it. Stalin saw Nazi Germany as the power that would fight and weaken capitalist countries so that Soviet armies could then sweep across Europe. Suvorov reveals how Stalin conspired with German leaders to bypass the Versailles Treaty, which forbade German rearmament, and secretly trained German engineers and officers and provided bases and factories for war. He also calls attention to the 1939 nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and Germany that allowed Hitler to proceed with his plans to invade Poland, fomenting war in Europe.

Suvorov debunks the theory that Stalin was duped by Hitler and that the Soviet Union was a victim of Nazi aggression. Instead, he makes the case that Stalin neither feared Hitler nor mistakenly trusted him. Suvorov maintains that after Germany occupied Poland, defeated France, and started to prepare for an invasion of Great Britain, Hitler’s intelligence services detected the Soviet Union’s preparations for a major war against Germany. This detection, he argues, led to Germany’s preemptive war plan and the launch of an invasion of the USSR. Stalin emerges from the pages of this book as a genius consumed by the vision of a worldwide Communist revolution at any cost–a leader who wooed Hitler and Germany in his own effort to conquer the world. In contradicting traditional theories about Soviet planning, the book is certain to provoke debate among historians throughout the world.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack

Postby Lamprecht » 1 month 4 weeks ago (Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:09 pm)

John Wear has an excellent article on his blog:


Germany’s Incredible Courage To Defend Europe: How Hitler’s Invasion of The Soviet Union Surprised Stalin
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/11/ ... ed-stalin/
or https://archive.is/F6Co7

He discusses Viktor Suvorov (see above) and how Hitler launched his attack on the USSR without adequate preparation, due to the time constraints he had. Hitler understood he had no choice but to attack as soon as possible, before the Soviets began their assault on Europe.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer


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