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Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:15 am)

But the Nazi propagandists in fact decreased the real death toll in order not to break the morale of their people at that crucial moment of WW2.

What is the source?

The real death toll was probably 10 or 20 times higher than 25.000. 25.000 dead after 14 hours of incendiary bombing in a city full of 1.000.000 homeless (and unregistered) refugees is a joke !

Same question.

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Postby hermod » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:58 pm)

Werd wrote:
But the Nazi propagandists in fact decreased the real death toll in order not to break the morale of their people at that crucial moment of WW2.

What is the source?

I don't remember where I've read that. But telling the Germans that the Allies had just killed more than 300.000 Germans at Dresden was the worst thing Goebbels could have done at that time.

The real death toll was probably 10 or 20 times higher than 25.000. 25.000 dead after 14 hours of incendiary bombing in a city full of 1.000.000 homeless (and unregistered) refugees is a joke !

Same question.

The London Edition of the Stars and Stripes in May 1945, according to a report by Dresden police.

Stars & Stripes
London Edition, Saturday, May 5, 1945, Vol. 5, No. 156
Air Raid on Dresden Killed More Than 300,000
by Dan Regan
Stars and Stripes Staff Writer

With the 1st Army, May 3 (Delayed) -- The Allied air raid on Dresden on Feb. 13-14 killed 300,000 persons, according to a report by Dresden police to a group of 600 -- British and French -- prisoners who were given passes by the Germans to enter the American lines.

Nine British PWs were working in Dresden during the raid and said the horror and devastation caused by the Anglo-American 14-hour raid was beyond human comprehension unless one could see for himself.

One British sergeant said,

"Reports from Dresden police that 300,000 died as a result of the bombing didn't include deaths among 1,000,000 evacuees from the Breslau area trying to escape from the Russians. There were no records on them.

"After seeing the results of the bombing, I believe these figures are correct."

[...] ... 50545.html

Eberhard Matthes a lieutenant colonel and General Staff Officer in Dresden at the time of the bombing was one of those responsible for determining the number of victims. According to his data 35,000 corpses were "totally identified", 50,000 were "partially identified" and 168,000 corpses "could no longer be identified." In total Matthes counted 253,000 dead. ... rld_War_II

Now the autorithies' "Dresden Holocaust Denial". They even bring the death toll established by the Dresden police immediately after the bombing from 253.000 to 25.000. What a pathetic trick !

Firebombing killed 25,000 in Dresden in 1945: German commission

Findings rebut neo-Nazi claims that as many as a million died in Allied attacks

October 1, 2008

The Associated Press

A special commission in Germany says the Allied firebombing of Dresden in 1945 killed no more than 25,000 people — far fewer than scholars' previous estimates running as high as 135,000.

The team of a dozen experts, including university professors, archivists and military historians, reported Wednesday that four years of research so far has confirmed 18,000 deaths and showed that police and city administrators at the time believed there were about 25,000 victims.

Since the end of the Second World War, scholars have varied in their tally of people killed by waves of British and U.S. bombers on Feb. 13 and 14, 1945, with some estimates running to 135,000 or more.

Recently, neo-Nazis in Germany have offered a sharply inflated figure of 500,000 to one million victims, calling the raid a "bombing Holocaust" and comparing it to Adolf Hitler's murder of six million Jews.

But when a far-right party won seats in Saxony's parliament in 2004 and began promoting such claims, state officials decided a commission was needed to put the matter to rest. ... mbing.html
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:04 pm)

RE: Straffing.

I found an article on informationclearing house that adopts Taylor's five figure death toll but objects to his claim that Dresden deserved to be hit because of its alleged military importance.

In recent times, however, the bombing of countries and of cities has almost become an everyday occurrence, rationalized not only by our political leaders but also presented by our media as an effective military undertaking and as a perfectly legitimate means to achieve supposedly worthwhile objectives. In this context, even the terrible attack on Dresden has recently been rehabilitated by a British historian, Frederick Taylor, who argues that the huge destruction wreaked on the Saxon city was not intended by the planners of the attack, but was the unexpected result of a combination of unfortunate circumstances, including perfect weather conditions and hopelessly inadequate German air defenses.[3] However, Taylor’s claim is contradicted by a fact that he himself refers to in his book, namely, that approximately 40 American “heavies” strayed from the flight path and ended up dropping their bombs on Prague instead of Dresden.[4] If everything had gone according to plan, the destruction in Dresden would surely have been even bigger than it already was. It is thus obvious that an unusually high degree of destruction had been intended.

So in other words, there was a first attack wave on Dresden and a few strayed from that first wave and hit Prague. So why are the posters on axishistoryforum claiming that there basically was no first attack wave and that "Irving knows the truth"? Also, check out this amazon review.

Military logic - or military minds run amok?, January 14, 2007

The first RAF bombing raid excluded the Marshalling yards, Hauptbanhof, Marienbrücke railway bridge and troop barracks... obvious military targets if you are bombing to disable troop movement. It was -only- during the 2nd bombing raid, seeing that the Altstadt was completely engulfed in flames, that the RAF bomber leader made a snap decision - on his own - to target the fringes, otherwise the second target drop would have been exactly as the first.. the Altstadt itself. This is as much of an admission as you are ever going to get that the 1st and 2nd RAF raids were sent not so much for its military targets but for sheer chaos or "dehousing" as it was called.

The author however, does an excellent job revealing the lack of preparedness for a possible all out air raid, and shows how Dresden was truly undefended that night. When the author, who in no way seeks to minimize the horrors, is finished recounting the devastation inflicted on the inhabitants (told mainly through survivor first hand accounts), and you realize that there is still more come by way of the USAAF,... you are in disbelief.

Taylor is less successful at dispelling the "myth" of strafing. His method is to give credence to anyone who did not witness strafing, and to dismiss accounts of those who did as being "confused and traumatized" people. Yet there is documentation of an order to strafe and Taylor even prints it in his book. There are far too numerous recollections of this happening ( in many cities ) to dismiss out of hand. The official RAF Bomber Command web site page for Dresden 1945... still reads:

"Part of the American Mustang fighter-escort was ordered to strafe traffic on the roads around Dresden to increase the chaos and disruption to the important transportation network in the region."

Anyway, what Taylor spends most of his time on is counting the dead .. and since no one ever went to jail for reducing the number of Dresden victims, his final number is far lower than the 100 to 200 thousand often claimed.Taylor's final number of 30,000 seems low considering the number of refugees in the city, but it appears he has covered every angle on this based on documents that are known to exist.

So again, why are the posters on axishistory forum saying Taylor disproves the myth of straffing?

"Moreover, Bergander discovered that although there had been an attack by Fighter Group "A" that day, it had been made against Prague and not Dresden!! And as early as 1961 Irving had been provided a detailed report by one of the pilots explaining in detail that they had hit Prague and not Dresden!"

What is their source? Have they been to archives in washington DC? Or are they simply going on the words of Richard Evans and what he says in his report? Clearly the latter. Not checking out a source themselves and yet citing it. Why do we see this so much in the exterminationist camp? Orthodox holocaust historians seem quite fond of referencing each other or things they have not seen. Thankfully Mattogno, Graf and Kues expose this dubious method of 'scholarship' in their most recent work.

on with the article clip.

More serious is Taylor’s insistence that Dresden did constitute a legitimate target, since it was not only an important military centre but also a first-rate turntable for rail traffic as well as a major industrial city, where countless factories and workshops produced all sorts of militarily important equipment. A string of facts, however, indicate that these “legitimate” targets hardly played a role in the calculations of the planners of the raid. First, the only truly significant military installation, the Luftwaffe airfield a few kilometres to the north of the city, was not attacked. Second, the presumably crucially important railway station was not marked as a target by the British “Pathfinder” planes that guided the bombers. Instead, the crews were instructed to drop their bombs on the inner city, situated to the north of the railway station.[5] Consequently, even though the Americans did bomb the station and countless people perished in it, the facility suffered relatively little structural damage, so little, in fact, that it was again able to handle trains transporting troops within days of the operation.[6] Third, the great majority of Dresden’s militarily important industries were not located downtown but in the suburbs, where no bombs were dropped, at least not deliberately.[7]

[5] Olaf Groehler. Bombenkrieg gegen Deutschland, Berlin, 1990, p. 414; Hansen, p. 245; “Luftangriffe auf Dresden,”, p.7.

[6] “Luftangriffe auf Dresden,”, p. 7.

[7] Taylor, pp. 152-154, 358-359.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e24631.htm

So it seems we already have to examples of Taylor contradicting himself or at least making claims that are not born out by the very evidence he cites. Kind of like what was done in that cut and paste manifesto of the HC crowd. By the way, Mattogno's sixth chapter on resettlement versus extermination as shown in the documentary record is SUPERB! I am already on chapter seven.

It cannot be denied that Dresden, like any other major German city, contained militarily important industrial installations, and that at least some of these installations were located in the inner city and were therefore wiped out in the raid, but this does not logically lead to the conclusion that the attack was planned for this purpose. Hospitals and churches were also destroyed, and numerous Allied POWs who happened to be in the city were killed, but nobody argues that the raid was organized to bring that about. Similarly, a number of Jews and members of Germany’s anti-Nazi resistance, awaiting deportation and/or execution, were able to escape from prison during the chaos caused by the bombing,[8] but no one claims that this was the objective of the raid. There is no logical reason, then, to conclude that the destruction of an unknown number of industrial installations of greater or lesser military importance was the raison d’être of the raid. The destruction of Dresden’s industry – like the liberation of a handful of Jews – was nothing more than an unplanned “by-product” of the operation.

Fair enough. Jump ahead a bit.

It was crucially important to make it clear to Stalin that the military power of the Western Allies, in spite of recent setbacks in the Belgian Ardennes, should not be underestimated. The Red Army admittedly featured huge masses of infantry, excellent tanks, and a formidable artillery, but the Western Allies held in their hands a military trump which the Soviets were unable to match. That trump was their air force, featuring the most impressive collection of bombers the world had ever seen. This weapon made it possible for the Americans and the British to launch devastating strikes on targets that were far removed from their own lines. If Stalin could be made aware of this, would he not prove easier to deal with at Yalta?

It was Churchill who decided that the total obliteration of a German city, under the noses of the Soviets so to speak, would send the desired message to the Kremlin. The RAF and USAAF had been able for some time to strike a devastating blow against any German city, and detailed plans for such an operation, known as “Operation Thunderclap,” had been meticulously prepared. During the summer of 1944, however, when the rapid advance from Normandy made it seem likely that the war would be won before the end of the year, and thoughts were already turning to postwar reconstruction, a Thunderclap-style operation had begun to be seen as a means to intimidate the Soviets. In August 1944, an RAF memorandum pointed out that “the total devastation of the centre of a vast [German] city…would convince the Russian allies…of the effectiveness of Anglo-American air power.”[13]

Now others have denied there was an attempt to 'show off' to the Soviets, but this does appear to be the case. Of all people, David Irving has confirmed this.

I ALREADY responded to a similar review of the leftwing "historian" Frederick Taylor's book on Dresden published by David "Ratface" Cesarani in The Independent earlier this year 2004.

One detail should suffice to show who was correct: Cesarani scoffs at the "obscene" notion that the British government's aim was to teach the Russians a lesson on the strength of the RAF bomber hordes In his seminal history of RAF Bomber Command, author Max Hastings used a document, a two volume British internal monograph, Review of the Work of Int I, which had eluded even my researches -- and this quoted verbatim the briefing notes sent by teleprinter to every squadron of RAF Bomber Command taking part that night.
To quote my book Apocalypse 1945: the Destruction of Dresden: "Bomber Command head- quarters had issued by teleprinter identical briefing instructions to every bomber airfield. The wording, which has survived, makes odd reading now. The seven thousand British airmen were to be told that afternoon that they were about to attack Dresden, 'far the largest unbombed built-up area the enemy has got.' 'The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most,' the telex said; it then added words pregnant with other implications: 'And incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.'

The sporting phrase which occurs to me right now is, I think, Game, set and match.

INCIDENTALLY, Henry Stimson reveals in his diary that one useful purpose of the Hiroshima bombing would be to show the Russians the strength of this new weapon. Here is a passage from vol.iii of Churchill's War (as yet unpublished, of course):

"It was Stimson who formally suggested employing the Bomb. The body-count would be Japanese, but it was the effect on the Russians that counted on him and other statesmen now. As early as May 14, 1945, after talking over this 'hot potato' with General Marshall, he had dictated into his files an opinion that the way to deal with Russia now was to 'let our actions speak for words.' The Russians, he felt, would understand actions better than anything else. 'We (Americans) have got to regain the lead and perhaps do it in a pretty rough and realistic way.' This time, he had reminded Marshall, Washington held all the cards -- 'a royal straight flush,' was how he put it. 'We mustn't fool about the way we play it,' he had said. 'We have coming into action a weapon which will be unique.' ... hPost.html

Jumping right where we left off...
For the purpose of defeating Germany, Thunderclap was no longer considered necessary by early 1945. But towards the end of January 1945, while preparing to travel to Yalta, Churchill suddenly showed great interest in this project, insisted that it be carried out tout de suite, and specifically ordered the head of the RAF Bomber Command, Arthur Harris, to wipe out a city in Germany’s east.[14] On January 25 the British Prime Minister indicated where he wanted the Germans to be “blasted,” namely, somewhere “in their [westward] retreat from Breslau [now Wroclaw in Poland].”[15] In terms of urban centres, this was tantamount to spelling D-R-E-S-D-E-N. That Churchill himself was behind the decision to bomb a city in Germany’s east is also hinted at in the autobiography of Arthur Harris, who wrote that “the attack on Dresden was at the time considered a military necessity by much more important people than myself.”[16] It is obvious that only personalities of the calibre of Churchill were able to impose their will on the czar of strategic bombing. As the British military historian Alexander McKee has written, Churchill “intended to write [a] lesson on the night sky [of Dresden]” for the benefit of the Soviets. However, since the USAAF also ended up being involved in the bombing of Dresden, we may assume that Churchill acted with the knowledge and approval of Roosevelt. Churchill’s partners at the top of the United States’ political as well as military hierarchy, including General Marshall, shared his viewpoint; they too were fascinated, as McKee writes, by the idea of “intimidating the [Soviet] communists by terrorising the Nazis.”[17] The American participation in the Dresden raid was not really necessary, because the RAF was undoubtedly capable of wiping out Dresden in a solo performance. But the “overkill” effect resulting from a redundant American contribution was perfectly functional for the purpose of demonstrating to the Soviets the lethality of Anglo-American air power. It is also likely that Churchill did not want the responsibility for what he knew would be a terrible slaughter to be exclusively British; it was a crime for which he needed a partner.

[14] Taylor, pp. 185-186, 376; Grayling, p. 71; David Irving. The Destruction of Dresden, London, 1971, pp. 96-99.

[15] Hansen, p. 241.

[16] Arthur Travers Harris, Bomber offensive, Don Mills/Ont., 1990, p. 242.

[17] McKee, pp. 46, 105.

And finally,
A Thunderclap–style operation would of course do damage to whatever military and industrial installations and communications infrastructure were housed in the targeted city, and would therefore inevitably amount to yet another blow to the already tottering German enemy. But when such an operation was finally launched, with Dresden as target, it was done far less in order to speed up the defeat of the Nazi enemy than in order to intimidate the Soviets. Using the terminology of the “functional analysis” school of American sociology, hitting the Germans as hard as possible was the “manifest function” of the operation, while intimidating the Soviets was its far more important “latent” or “hidden” function. The massive destruction wreaked in Dresden was planned – in other words, was “functional” – not for the purpose of striking a devastating blow to the German enemy, but for the purpose of demonstrating to the Soviet ally that the Anglo-Americans had a weapon which the Red Army, no matter how mighty and successful it was against the Germans, could not match, and against which it had no adequate defenses.

Many American and British generals and high-ranking officers were undoubtedly aware of the latent function of the destruction of Dresden, and approved of such an undertaking; this knowledge also reached the local commanders of the RAF and USAAF as well as the “master bombers.” (After the war, two master bombers claimed to remember that they had been told clearly that this attack was intended “to impress the Soviets with the hitting power of our Bomber Command.”)[18] But the Soviets, who had hitherto made the biggest contribution to the war against Nazi Germany, and who had thereby not only suffered the biggest losses but also scored the most spectacular successes, e.g. in Stalingrad, enjoyed much sympathy among low-ranking American and British military personnel, including bomber crews. This constituency would certainly have disapproved of any kind of plan to intimidate the Soviets, and most certainly of a plan – the obliteration of a German city from the air – which they would have to carry out. It was therefore necessary to camouflage the objective of the operation behind an official rationale. In other words, because the latent function of the raid was “unspeakable,” a “speakable” manifest function had to be concocted.

And so the regional commanders and the master bombers were instructed to formulate other, hopefully credible, objectives for the benefit of their crews. In view of this, we can understand why the instructions to the crews with respect to the objectives differed from unit to unit and were often fanciful and even contradictory. The majority of the commanders emphasized military objectives, and cited undefined “military targets,” hypothetical “vital ammunition factories” and “dumps of weapons and supplies,” Dresden’s alleged role as “fortified city,” and even the existence in the city of some “German Army Headquarters.” Vague references were also frequently made to “important industrial installations” and “marshalling yards.” In order to explain to the crews why the historical city centre was targeted and not the industrial suburbs, some commanders talked about the existence there of a “Gestapo headquarters” and of “a gigantic poison gas factory.” Some speakers were either unable to invent such imaginary targets, or were for some reason unwilling to do so; they laconically told their men that the bombs were to be dropped on “the built-up city centre of Dresden,” or “on Dresden” tout court.[19] To destroy the centre of a German city, hoping to wreak as much damage as possible to military and industrial installations and to communication infrastructures, happened to be the essence of the Allied, or at least British, strategy of “area bombing.”[20] The crew members had learned to accept this nasty fact of life, or rather of death, but in the case of Dresden many of them felt ill at ease. They questioned the instructions with respect to the objectives, and had the feeling that this raid involved something unusual and suspicious and was certainly not a “routine” affair, as Taylor presents things in his book. The radio operator of a B-17, for example, declared in a confidential communication that “this was the only time” that “[he] (and others) felt that the mission was unusual.” The anxiety experienced by the crews was also illustrated by the fact that in many cases a commander’s briefing did not trigger the crews’ traditional cheers but were met with icy silence.[21]

Directly or indirectly, intentionally or unintentionally, the instructions and briefings addressed to the crews sometimes revealed the true function of the attack. For example, a directive of the RAF to the crews of a number of bomber groups, issued on the day of the attack, February 13, 1945, unequivocally stated that it was the intention “to show the Russians, when they reach the city, what our Bomber Command is capable of doing.”[22] Under these circumstances, it is hardly surprising that many crew members understood clearly that they had to wipe Dresden from the map in order to scare the Soviets. A Canadian member of a bomber crew was to state after the war to an oral historian that he was convinced that the bombing of Dresden had aimed to make it clear to the Soviets “that they had to behave themselves, otherwise we would show them what we could also do to Russian cities.”[23]

[18] Groehler, p. 404.

[19] Ibid., p. 404.

[20] The Americans preferred “precision bombing,” in theory if not always in practice.

[21] Taylor, pp. 318-19; Irving, pp. 147-48.

[22] Quotation from Groehler, p. 404. See also Grayling, p. 260.

[23] Cited in Barry Broadfoot, Six War Years 1939-1945: Memories of Canadians at Home and Abroad, Don Mills, Ontario, 1976, p. 269.

This is not the end, but I will stop here anyway. This article, and that amazon review, has in my view done some good things.

1. Refuted the claim on axishistory that straffing never occured or if it did, it did not have official sanction.
2. Refuted the claim on axishistory that the entire first wave attacked Prague and not Dresden and that irving has known for decades but pretended not to.
3. Refuted the claim of Taylor that Dresden had enough military significance to warrant being bombed.

Now, I was going to claim that also now refuted is the claim on axishistory forum that refugees were not in fact being sheltered. I thought this was absurd since people talk about refugees being killed in Dresden and not even Taylor tries to cover that up. But I did read a claim that refugees were not allowed to spend more than anywhere from two to three days in Dresden and that they have to leave. They were not all piling up in the city. In that vien I can understand why this article accepts the five figure death toll. But even if the numbers are reduced, that does not make the attack anymore legitimate or necessary.

historybuff says:
After reading Taylor's book I am convinced that he is an apologist for the horrible bombing inflicted on the unfortunate residents of that city. By diminishing the numbers of dead and focusing on the activities of the Gestapo he is setting the framework to justify the firebombing. Following the bombings the wretched population had to endure the rape and pillage by the Soviet Army. I am amazed at how the Germans have rebounded from this triple whammy. As for Taylor, shame on him and his lack of compassion!! ... tore=books

More to come as I dig into ths.

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Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:57 am)

Book Review: 'Dresden'

By Tom Blackburn, Special to The Palm Beach Post

DRESDEN: Tuesday, February 13, 1945, by Frederick Taylor. HarperCollins; 528 pages; $26.95.

Dresden wasn't a "refugee center." Tens of thousands passed through, but authorities gave them only a day to move on or not be fed. The city had one day's intake of refugees when it was hit.
In The Destruction of Dresden, a 1963 bestseller, Irving reported a death toll from the bombing of 135,000. After that number was shown to be a fake, Irving retreated to "up to 100,000." Careful study by Germans and Taylor puts the number closer to between 25,000 and 40,000.

quoted by David Irving here. ... hPost.html

This must be what they are referring to and what axishistoryforum is referring to here. ... 71#p669671
"OK, first as to the refugees. "
The problem with Irving is not that he is fabricating the fact of refugees, but that he is fabricating the number - in that he has, or at least he offers us, no source for his numbers which, moreover, seem internally highly inconsistent. In his Preface Irving tells us, in justification to the otherwise astonishing 135,000 asserted death toll, (over three times that of Hamburg, with a population of 1.6 million) that Dresden had swollen to twice its normal size of 650,000, which, he claims, was due to "a massive influx of refugees from the East, Allied and Russian prisoners of war, and thousands of forced laborers." He fails to tell us there or elsewhere the source for his calculation of the over 650,000 population increase.

Nor is he of much help in informing us of the breakdown of its various components, although in Section 2 of his Appendix II (which, although replete with various figures, gives no source for the derivation of any of them) he states that there were "some 300,000 to 400,000 'homeless' refugees in the city before the raids" - by which I assume he meant at the time of the raids. Which would leave 250,000 to 350,000 as the number of POWs and forced laborers. But although there were indeed POW camps in the vicinity of Dresden, there were none in the city itself. As Irving was later informed by the Swiss Red Cross "There were no PoW camps in Dresden itself, and consequently Mr. Kleinert's reports [a Red Cross representative who was inspecting the PoW camps at the time of the air raids] did not even allude to the air raids on the town." Evans Book at 163. So without the PoWs, the balance of the population increase would have to consist of forced laborers, but Irving gives no hint as to what in the world so many were doing there.

One would suppose that a sudden influx of 650,000 people into a city already of that size would have led to generally chaotic conditions, and that is the picture that Irving portrays. Yet Georg Feydt, at the time of the raid the Dresden Civil Defense Engineer, wrote in 1953 that "I cannot imagine a more peaceful and calm picture than Dresden on the afternoon of 13 February 1945." Götz Bergander, who at 18 had been assigned to help accommodate the incoming refugees, writing in 1977 remembered that most of them had somehow been quartered in emergency accomodations. He went on to estimate that on the 13-14 of February 9,000 had been temporarily lodged in the railway stations; 6,000 had been trecking with carts spread out over the whole of the city and 85,000 had been staying in emergency accommodations. There was no forced billeting in private homes or huge temporary camps erected. Bergander then doubled his estimate to include those who may have found their own lodging for the night, resulting in an estimate of 200,000 refugees.

The historian Friedrich Reichert, writing in 1994, quoted witnesses who attested to the fact that there was no billeting of refugees in either private houses or in public parks or squares, pointed out that due to numbers of men who were away on active service Dresden's resident population had dropped to 567,000, and to this added 100,000 temporary refugees to arrive at the city's total population at the time of the raids. Rudolf Förster's Article "Dresden", in Hiller, Jäckel and Rohwer (eds.) Städte in 2. Weltkrieg: Ein Internationaler Vergleich (Essen, 1991) ( Cities in the Second World War: An International Comparison) had come up with the same number of refugees.

And Irving himself wrote, at 106, that military police had been stationed Dresden's outskirts to direct refugees with horses and carts round the city, allowing entrance only to those on foot and those only for three days.

Yet in his 1995 edition Irving's alleged number of refugees in Dresden had increased from the 300,000 to 400,000 stated in one place in his original 1963 Book to "one or two million refugees".

As far as I know, the only attempt Irving ever made was to substantiate his "swollen to its double size" assertion for Dresden's population was in his 1966 Corgi paperback edition where he claimed that the Dresden City authorities had issued 1,250,000 ration cards by the time of the raids, citing statistics "provided by Mr. Howard Gee [further unidentified], who was given them [by whom? unanswered!] during a visit in June, 1963." This fact disappeared from the 1995 edition because as Irving himself admitted he had subsequently become aware that the Allies had dropped millions of fake ration cards to confuse the population and hamper the German administration.

The above is based primarily upon Evans Report and Evans Book at 172-5. Evans concludes at 172 that "It seemed obvious to me in the light of the increase which they underwent between the 1966 and 1995 editions of his book that these figures [as to the number of refugees in Dresden at the time of the raids] were entirely arbitrary. At no point did Irving give a source for any of them. They were figments of his own imagination."

Well that does not bode well for Irving. Lacking sources for numbers is one thing but at least he made that correction in the nineties. I just wonder if there are any 90's editions of the first volume of Churchill's War which corrects these errors.
are errors in 'churchill's war' fixed in post 90's editions?

How can you tout a book as an exposé of "The Most Lethal Air Attack in History" and "the single greatest massacre in human history" (see my immediately previous post) without coming up with a death toll far and above that of Tokyo, Hiroshima, Hamburg or any other city bombed to smithereens in WWII?

Answer: You can't!

Next question: how can you produce a death toll in a city of 650,000 population which toll exceeds by over 3 times that produced by the fire storm in Hamburg, which latter city had about 1 million more residents? [ yes, Hamburg may have been better defended, but despite that as Irving himself states, Appendix II, it endured more than twice the tonnage of bombs dropped and had almost twice the number of people rendered homeless as did Dresden.]

And, as a follow up: how can you possibly explain the totally disproportionate death toll of over 20 times that which you yourself quote, at 52, as resulting from the firestorm at Kassel, when Dresden's permanent population was less than 3 times Kassel's, its total homes destroyed less than 3 times Kassel's and the total tonnage of bombs dropped less than 2 times that on Kassel????

Answer to both: Easy! You just pack Dresden to the very hilt with however many refugees you think it takes to give your figure at least a semblance of credibility!

Note: Alexander McGee, who in his The Devil's Tinderbox: Dresden, 1945 (London 1982) ends up taking Seydewitz' original 35,000 figure, and then on the basis of poor air raid protection and the number of refugees in the city (as to neither of which can I understand the relevance to the number of corpses actually counted) suggests it might be doubled to 70,000 "without fear of exaggeration". See Taylor, cited in my immediately preceding post, at 446, and hereafter simply "Taylor".

This seems like a fair point. Let's rewind a bit and have a quick refresh.

"And Irving himself wrote, at 106, that military police had been stationed Dresden's outskirts to direct refugees with horses and carts round the city, allowing entrance only to those on foot and those only for three days."

If this is true, then I would also find it hard to believe that there could be half a million refugees in Dresden on the day it was hit. However, Irving did post this which I found intersting and likely to be true.
April 24, 2009 (Friday)
Windsor (England)

I DEPOSIT Jessica at the school gates at 7:55 a.m. She is nodding off during most of the drive; confesses that she sat up until eleven pm last night reading a book. I am so impressed by this No. 5.

A website visitor in North Wales has donated fifty dollars for our website this morning. That's nice. "Keep up the good work," He encourages me: "You will be proved right in the end."

Back at the Public Record Office I continue to turn the pages of the immense volumes of decoded SS and police messages, released from top secret files only a few years ago. I have now read nearly fifty volumes and I have reached the year 1945. This particular volume has over 2,000 pages of flimsy paper, with ten or fifteen much-abbreviated decoded German messages typed on each page: the contents are madly out of sequence, bound into the volume in the order they were decoded weeks or months after the war.

I methodically read each one, and type a copy of those messages I may need for my Heinrich Himmler biography. Hard sledding, but it is worth it. Their value as a source is immense -- nothing here has been written just for post-war window-dressing (as some 1944 and 1945 documents clearly have been): nobody guessed that we would ever be reading these secret code messages.

AS THE day draws on I come across a document which I only half-suspected I might ever find. In 1961, when I was writing my first book "The Destruction of Dresden", I was confidentially approached by a German schoolteacher, Hanns Voigt; he said that after the horrific British air raid, he was put in charge of Dresden's Missing Persons Bureau, Abteilung Tote - the Deceased Section. He built an immense card index, and he kept a diary; and he estimated for me that the final death toll in Dresden would have reached 135,000. This was the figure that I, and after me Kurt Vonnegut and others, always used.

Other city officials gave the same kind of estimates. (Later this year I shall post on my website a full dossier on the Dresden death toll.)

Voigt's estimate was a thorn in the side of both German Governments -- both east and west. They had always played down, even trivialised, the air raid casualty figures caused by the British saturation bombing (even as they hyped the numbers killed in the Jewish tragedy).

Only last year a German Government commission consisting of, not just conformist but kow-towing, line-toeing, bowing-and-scraping historians and Nickeseln, agreed that the death roll in the two hour man-made 1945 holocaust in Dresden was far lower, "only 25,000" (or, if possible, even less).

Without doing any in-depth research -- such scholars are far too important for that -- they relied on the police chief's early March 1945 report (which in fact I was the first to find), because it indicated lower figures than Hanns Voigt's for dead and missing.

In the Deborah Lipstadt Trial, her highly-paid chief expert Professor Richard "Skunky" Evans (left) vilified Voigt; he implied that Voigt was a liar, he questioned whether the Missing Persons bureau had ever existed, and he called him a Nazi with an agenda. (Voigt had, we now know, been given a good post-war position in the Soviet Zone before emigrating legally to the West, so the "Nazi" allegation seems unlikely.) Aping Evans, Mr Justice Gray accused me in his 333-page Judgment of falsifying history.

I was not invited to make any submissions to the Dresden Commission. No surprises there. This afternoon, my quiet patience is rewarded. I have come across this new secret document, signed by the police chief of Dresden, and decoded by the British some weeks after the war.

Image ... de_600.jpg

At 5:55 p.m. on March 24, 1945 -- the day in fact when I turned eight, I remember it vividly -- the Dresden Polizeipräsident reported in code to SS Oberführer Dr. Dietrichs:

Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.

The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.

So Voigt was telling the truth.

Even the "hundred thousand" figure for those reported missing must be an under-estimate. There were over half a million homeless refugees in the streets of Dresden, fleeing the Red Army siege of Breslau to the East. Whole refugee families must have been engulfed by the Dresden holocaust, with nobody surviving to report them as "missing".

Another thing seems brutally clear: those listed as "missing" -- in addition to those bodies formally identified and buried or incinerated by this date -- were never going to return. To use the words of the telegram I found yesterday (see above) they were dead, "carbonised," and unidentifiable.

What do these decoded messages tell us about our own lazy and conformist historians, and about "Skunky" Evans in particular? He, and they, would never have found them. It has taken me these many years. Go the extra mile. Eventually, as this morning's Welshman said, "You will be proved right in the end".

So Irving is right that at the very least even the British figured the toll was into six figures. But as to his statement that there were half a million refugees, that does not seem to be the case and as shown earlier, Irving's own claim that refugees stayed for no longer than three days would seem to prove there were not a high number of refugees as they say on the axishistory forum. So those guys are likely (in my view) correct about Irving being wrong about numbers, but they are wrong to say that Dresden was a legitimate target and the few other things I already pointed out.


1. Refuted the claim on axishistory that straffing never occured or if it did, it did not have official sanction.
2. Refuted the claim on axishistory that the entire first wave attacked Prague and not Dresden and that irving has known for decades but pretended not to.
3. Refuted the claim of Taylor that Dresden had enough military significance to warrant being bombed.

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Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:22 am)

Actually just hold on...

Stars & Stripes
London Edition, Saturday, May 5, 1945, Vol. 5, No. 156
Air Raid on Dresden Killed More Than 300,000
by Dan Regan
Stars and Stripes Staff Writer
One British sergeant said,

"Reports from Dresden police that 300,000 died as a result of the bombing didn't include deaths among 1,000,000 evacuees from the Breslau area trying to escape from the Russians. There were no records on them.

"After seeing the results of the bombing, I believe these figures are correct."

According to an article summarizing the work of Taylor, "Dresden wasn't a "refugee center." Tens of thousands passed through, but authorities gave them only a day to move on or not be fed. The city had one day's intake of refugees when it was hit." If we jump back and read that clip from axishistory's forum that I quoted with the title ""OK, first as to the refugees," and put that together with Irving finding out this ... de_600.jpg

I think it's safe to say that Irving has no real proof of half a million refugees in Dresden but that the low six figures for a complete death toll of residents and refugees is probably a safe bet. I think anyone who puts the death toll for Dresden in the neighbourhood of half a million or more is flat out mistaken.

And in the 1963 edition, Irving stated in his Preface, at 11, that the air raid: estimated authoritatively to have killed more that 135,000 of the population of a city swollen to twice its peacetime size by a massive influx of refugees from the East, Allied and Russian prisoners of war, and thousand of forced laborers.

135,000 being straddled by Crossman's 120,000 to 150,000.

In that edition, Irving quoted, at 226, a "Top Secret Order of the Day" dated March 23, 1945 which purported to contain an extract from a report by the Dresden Police President stating that 202,040 bodies had been recovered, primarily of women and children, and that the final death toll was expected to exceed 250,000. As his source for this Irving cited Professor Max Seydewitz' Die Zerstörung und Wiederaufbau von Dresden [The Destruction and Rebuilding of Dresden] (Dresden 1955) no page given. And in 1963 Irving agreed with Seydewitz that this "Order of the Day" was a spurious piece of Nazi propaganda. This should be kept in mind as the tale developes.

Irving's promotion of the German propaganda figure of 250,000 came later in his 1966 English edition, by which time he had gotten hold of a piece of paper which, he asserted, led him to change his mind as to the falsity of the "Order of the Day". I'll try to get into this in detail in another post.

As I said, axishistory may be correct that Irving is wrong about half a million dying in Dresden, but they are WRONG about the numbers being in the low five figures I believe. And as shown they have been proven wrong about a couple other things, mainly the straffing issue. Hell, nobody is perfect. Another hilarious example: these guys at axishistory wasted an entire topic on the Hitler/Horthy meetings on April 16 and 17 claiming Hitler wanted Jewry exterminated,
and the new Mattogno-Graf-Kues piece shows that Hitler never wanted all Jews exterminated at that meeting. See page 559 of their pdf.

I would also like to point out that Jacques Pauwels article originally appeared at globalresearch ... r-ii/17515
and his book THE MYTH OF THE GOOD WAR, which was originally published in 2002 has a small chapter on Dresden that someone reproduced here. ... e-joe.html.
A clip.
As intended, this caused a firestorm, which totally incinerated the old town, and which has been described by the British journalist and historian Phillip Knightley as

... an artificial tornado in which air is sucked into the fire centre at an ever-increasing speed. At Dresden, winds approaching 100 miles an hour swept debris and people into a fire centre where the temperature exceeded 1,000 degrees centigrade. The flames ate everything organic, everything that would burn. People died by the thousands, cooked, incinerated, or asphyxiated. The American planes came the next day to machine-gun survivors as they struggled to the banks ofthe Elbe.

Wow. Kind of like the Israelis blowing up those who survived the initial attack on the USS Liberty which has finally been admitted to have been deliberate with the full knowledge it was an American ship.

The Passing of Kurt Vonnegut -
An Eyewitness to the Holocaust of Dresden

Christopher Bollyn
12 April 2007

Another eyewitness, the late August Kuklane, had spent time in Dresden looking for his Estonian parents among the hundreds of thousands of refugees that had sought refuge in Dresden during the desperate winter of 1945. Kuklane told me that the number of people estimated to have perished in the city center that had been totally destroyed by fire was about 600,000.

Both Vonnegut and Kuklane witnessed American fighter planes strafing the survivors of the holocaust of Dresden:

"American fighter planes came in under the smoke to see if anything was moving. They saw Billy and the rest moving down there. The planes sprayed them with machine gun bullets but the bullets missed," Vonnegut wrote.

"Then they saw some other people moving down by the riverside and they shot at them. They hit some of them. So it goes." ... negut.html

or ... 3_engl.htm
Churchill wanted to roast German refugees

The British historian David Irving quoted on 13 February 1990, on the occasion of a lecture to 45. Anniversary of the destruction of Dresden in the Dresdner culture palace, the war criminal Churchill:

"I would not like to have suggestions, how we can destroy war-important goals in the surrounding countryside of Dresden, i would like have suggestions , how we can roast 600.000 Refugees from Breslau."

However to roast the Germans was Churchill and Roosevelt not enough. On the next morning they sent then low fliying planes,
wich killed survivors, mostly women and children, at the Elbufer (River border of Elbe)with their on-board weapons.
(some historians doubt this, see "Tieflieger over Dresden" ... nbunker-21 )
P-51 mustangs of the 352., 356., and 359. Fighter group as well as English Mosquitos shot on 14 February 1945 at defenseless old people, women and children.

Now that German book is by Helmut Schnatz, whose work was mentioned at axishistory.
Dr. Helmuth Schnatz, the author of several articles on the WW II air war in Germany, was inspired by Bergander's book to undertake his own investigation of the Dresden "strafing" allegation. To this he devoted some 10 years, and finally published the results in his Tiefflieger Über Dresden? Legenden und Wirklichkeit (Low Flying Aircraft Over Dresden? Legends or Reality?) (Cologne, 2000), in which his conclusions demonstrated that Irving's "facts" were in truth nothing more than fantasies.

Certainly, as Mr. Mills suggests, it is possible that one of the Mustang fighter pilots accompanying the US bombers on February 14th took off on a strafing foray as a frolic and adventure of his own. But Irving does not treat that as a possibility, but would have us accept it as a certainty! And there is no documentary evidence to support it, and much documentary evidence as well as tactical and logistical considerations to argue against it - to none of which does Irving pay the slightest heed.

How about British historian Phillip Knightley? How about eyewitness Kuklane? How about eyewitness Vonnegut?

But according to one person who reviewed Taylor's book, Taylor claims this never happened.

Neal Ascherson
The Observer, Sunday 22 February 2004

Taylor disproves another myth, still widely believed, that the American raiders next morning used fighters to strafe survivors fleeing the city or huddling on the Elbe river meadows. This did not happen. ... .features1

Well we have already established that straffing did happen during the initial attack on Dresden and it was in fact Jacques Pauwels' article showing that Taylor gave the game away by writing data showing it did happen. So is it really absurd to think that they returned to finish off survivors? Probably not. Question is, where is the actual proof that Taylor seems unable to locate? Are we to believe that Vonnegut and and Kuklane are lying and that the British historian Philip Knightley is mistaken in his book THE FIRST CASUALTY?

I have not read Taylor's book but I wonder if he even talked about how Dresden still had corpses being unearthed a year later as shown here.
Somehow I doubt it.

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Postby Hektor » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:27 am)

This belongs into World War II Revisionism, the other sub forum.

I recall them having an investigation in the issue that then came up with the ~25.000 figure. I'm not saying that this was anyhow valid, just found it amazing that they could come up with a relatively 'accurate' figure, but why not do an investigation into Auschwitz, with valid means of course?

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Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:36 pm)

Good idea. I will PM a mod about it.

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Postby Moderator » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:24 am)

Moved as requested.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:35 am)

What follows was posted here. ... 1329265201

February 13. Sixty-seven years ago today, thousands of Allied planes, chiefly British and American, attacked Dresden, an undefended university and cultural centre in Eastern Germany. As many as a quarter of a million refugees fleeing the advancing Soviet armies huddled in the city. Over three days, three waves of bombers attacked this defenceless city killing 250,000 people, mostly women and children. The Allied bombers first dropped percussion bombs that blew the roofs off the sturdy buildings. The next wave dropped incendiary bombs that set up a firestorm that liquefied people and killed hundreds of firemen and medics who'd rushed in to minister to the victims of the first bomber wave.

By any reasonable assessment this was a war crime. However, none of those responsible, chiefly Winston Churchill, faced the court at Nuremberg, which was solely victors' vengeance, not justice.

Yesterday, I partcipated and spoke at a Toronto memorial sponsored by the German World Congress and the German Historical Society of Mecklenburg and Upper Canada. We sadly commeorated the dead in Dresden and other German cities. Once again European man slaughtered European man. And who reaped the benefit?

Paul Fromm

I would say that Paul Fromm is close to being correct about the figures of dead. I would say that it was likely 250,000 at most. But I do forsee the approximately 100,000 figure as being totally resonable as well due to a number of factors. Not least of which are what Irving found in the British archives years later after the Lipstadt trial that has shown Richard "skunky" Evans to be a bit dishonest. - Werd.

Former Caandian Diplomat and Member of the RCAF Ian Macdoanld Writes

If you had been posted to Europe instead of the Pacific you probably would have helped kill those innocent women and children, mostly blond and blue eyed like yourself, and you would have felt guilt for the rest of your life. W/C Giff Gifford who took part in the Dresden massacre wrote to the "Valour and the Horror" review committee that the RAF Briefing Officer naming the target said: "We have a real juicy one for you tonight gentlemen, it's Dresden, and it's packed with refugees". Giff said he felt remorse every day of his life thereafter. Bomber Harris is generally blamed for the war crime but apparently Churchill was the chief culprit, at least he could have stopped it. Churchill however was obligated to his fanatically anti-German, anti-Christian paymasters who probably insisted that he kill as many Germans as possible before the war ended. They needn't have worried, since ways were found to kill even larger numbers, civilian and military, after the war They got their revenge, but Western Civilization paid the price. I.V.



Excerpts from WITNESS TO HISTORY Michael Walsh

During the war, more bombs by weight were dropped on the city of Berlin than were released on the whole of Great Britain during the entire war. All German towns and cities above 50,000 populations were from 50% to 80% destroyed. Dresden was incinerated with up to 300,000 civilian burned and buried in the ruins.

Hamburg was totally destroyed and 70,000 civilians died in the most appalling circumstances. As Hamburg burned the winds feeding the three mile high flames reached twice hurricane speed to exceeded 150 miles per hour. Trees three feet in diameter on the outskirts of the city were sucked from the ground by the supernatural forces of these winds and hurled miles into the city-inferno, as were vehicles, men, women... and children.

The volcanic flames were hurled 5,000’ into the sky. Four times the height of the Empire State Building. With gases they rose as high again caused meteorological reaction high as the stratosphere.

Between 1940 and 1945, sixty-one German cities with a total population of 25 million souls were destroyed of devastated in a bombing campaign that was initiated by the British government. Destruction on this scale had no other purpose than the indiscriminate mass murder of as many German people as possible regardless of their civilian status. It led to bombing retaliation resulting in 60,000 British dead and 86,000 injured.

The eminent British war historian and strategist, Captain Sir. Basil Liddell Hart declared that through this strategy victory had been achieved ‘through practising the most uncivilised means of warfare that the world had known since the Mongol invasions.’ - The Evolution of Warfare. Baber & Faber, 1946, p.75

‘It was absolutely contrary to international law. - Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain


‘Hitler only undertook the bombing of British civilian targets reluctantly three months after the RAF had commenced bombing German civilian targets. Hitler would have been willing at any time to stop the slaughter. Hitler was genuinely anxious to reach with Britain an agreement confining the action of aircraft to battle zones.’ - J.M Spaight., CB. CBE. Bombing Vindicated, p.47. Principal Secretary to the Air Ministry

‘Churchill was obsessed with getting America into the war. He tried to frighten Roosevelt with the prospect of an early German victory. He searched for an outrage, such as the sinking of the Lusitania in the First World War that would arouse American public opinion. German bombing of British civilians might well achieve this. But for weeks it looked as if the Germans had no intention of being so obliging.’ - The First Casualty, Phillip Knightley, Andre Deutsch. London 1975


‘The first 'area' air attack of the war was carried out by 134 British bombers on the German city of Mannheim, on the 16th, December, 1940. The object of this attack, as Air Chief Marshall Peirse later explained, was, 'to concentrate the maximum amount of damage in the centre of the town.'‘- The Strategic Air Offensive Against Germany. (H.M Stationery Office, London, 1961)


‘Because we were doubtful about the psychological effect of propagandist distortion of the truth that it was we who started the strategic (civilian) bombing offensive, we have shrunk from giving our great decision of May, 11th 1940, the publicity it deserves.’ - Bombing Vindicated. J.M. Spaight, CB. CBE. Principal Secretary to the Air Ministry.

‘The primary purpose of these raids was to goad the Germans into undertaking reprisal raids of a similar character on Britain. Such raids would arouse intense indignation in Britain against Germany and so create a war psychosis without which it would be impossible to carry on a modern war.’ - Dennis Richards, the Royal Air Force 1939/1945; The Fight at Odds. H.M Stationery Office


‘I am in full agreement (of terror bombing). I am all for the bombing of working class areas in German cities. I am a Cromwellian - I believe in 'slaying in the name of the Lord!’ - Sir. Archibald Sinclair, Secretary for Air


‘They (the British Air Chiefs) argued that the desired result, of reducing German industrial production, would be more readily achieved if the homes of the workers in the factories were destroyed; if the workers were kept busy arranging for the burial of their wives and children, output might reasonably be expected to fall.’ - Advance to Barbarism, F.J.P Veale; Distinguished British Jurist


‘The long suppressed story of the worst massacre in the history of the world. The devastation of Dresden in February, 1945, was one of those crimes against humanity whose authors would have been arraigned at Nuremberg if that court had not been perverted.’ - Richard. H.S Crosman, Labour Government Minister

‘I have read the reviews of the biographies of Sir Arthur Harris with extremely mixed feelings and also Robert Kee's letter. (8th July). On 13th, February 1945, I was a navigator on one of the Lancaster bombers which devastated Dresden. I well remember the briefing by our Group Captain. We were told that the Red Army was thrusting towards Dresden and that the town would be crowded with refugees and that the centre of the town would be full of women and children. Our aiming point would be the market place.

I recall that we were somewhat uneasy, but we did as we were told. We accordingly bombed the target and on our way back our wireless operator picked up a German broadcast accusing the RAF of terror tactics and those 65,000 civilians had died. We dismissed this as German propaganda.

The penny didn't drop until a few weeks later when my squadron received a visit from the Crown Film Unit who were making the wartime propaganda films. There was a mock briefing, with one notable difference. The same Group Captain now said, 'as the market place would be filled with women and children on no account would we bomb the centre of the town. Instead, our aiming point would be a vital railway junction to the east.

I can categorically confirm that the Dresden raid was a black mark on Britain's war record. The aircrews on my squadron were convinced that this wicked act was not instigated by our much respected guvnor 'Butch' Harris but by Churchill. I have waited 29 years to say this, and it still worries me.’ - A. Williams, Nottingham; the Observer, August 8th. 1984

CHILDREN MACHINE-GUNNED The strafing of columns of refugees by both American and British fighter planes was par for the course: ‘.... it is said that these (zoo) animals and terrified groups of refugees were machine-gunned as they tried to escape across the Grosser Garten by low-flying planes and that many bodies riddled by bullets were found later in this park.’ - Der Tod von Dresden, Axel Rodenberger, February 25th 1951

In Dresden, ‘Even the huddled remnants of a children’s' choir were machine-gunned in a street bordering a park.’ - David Irving, Destruction of Dresden

Phosphorous was used ‘because of its demonstrated ability to depress the morale of the Germans.’ - Official British source


‘I can tell you that Germany has been destroyed utterly and completely.’ - U.S. General Bradley, Associated Press, London, June 11th 1945

The terror bombing offensive cost the lives of over 2 million German civilians. It resulted in the total destruction of many of Europe's finest and most historical cities. It cost the lives of 58,888 RAF air crew; nearly the same number of British junior officers during the First World War.

‘Even the senseless and highly culture-destroying terror acts, against for example, Lubeck and Dresden, carried out by the Allied pilots, should have been investigated and brought before a proper court of justice.’ - Major General H. Bratt, Royal Swedish Army

‘A nation which spreads over another a sheet of inevitably deadly gases or eradicates entire cities from the earth by the explosion of atomic bombs, does not have the right to judge anyone for war crimes; it has already committed the greatest atrocity, equal to no other atrocity; it has killed - amidst unspeakable torments - hundreds of thousands of innocent people.’ - Hon. Lydio Machado Bandeira de Mello, Dr. Juris. Brazilian Professor of Criminal Law; author of more than 40 works on law/philosophy

‘As for crimes against humanity, those governments which ordered the destruction of German cities, thereby destroying irreplaceable cultural values and making burning torches out of women and children, should also have stood before the bar of justice.’ - Hon Jaan Lattik. Estonian statesman, diplomat and historian


‘One closes these volumes feeling, uneasily, that the true heroes of the story they tell are neither the contending air marshals, nor even the 58,888 officers and men of Bomber Command who were killed in action. They were the inhabitants of the German cities under attack; the men, women and children who stoically endured and worked on among the flaming ruins of their homes and factories, up till the moment when the allied armies overran them.’ - London Times reviewer on the British Official History of the Strategic Air Offensive.

‘There are no final figures on the number of civilians killed as a result of the mass-bombing, but 2,000,000 would be a very restrained figure (estimate).’ - Professor Harry Elmer Barnes, Ph.D. American historian.

‘Kassel suffered over 300 air raids, some carrying waves of 1,000 bombers; British by night, American by day. When on April, 4th, 1945, Kassel surrendered, of a population of 250,000, just 15,000 were left alive.’ - Jack Bell, Chicago Daily News Foreign Service, Kassel, May 15th 1946

‘Countless smaller towns and villages had been razed to the ground or turned into ghost towns like Wiener Neustadt in Austria. The town emerged from the air raids with only eighteen houses intact and its population reduced from 45,000 to 860.’ - In the Ruins of the Reich, Douglas Botting. George, Allen & Unwin. London. 1985

AND THE OTHER CITIES: Berlin, Hamburg, Dortmund, Essen, Dresden, Frankfurt, Nuremberg, Dusseldorf, Hanover, Bremen, Wuppertal, Vienna, Duisburg. Munich, Magdeburg, Leipzig, Mannheim, Stuttgart, Kiel, Gelsdenkirchen, Bochum, Aachen, Wurzburg, Darmstadt, Krefeld, Munster, Munchen Gladbach,, Braunschweig, Ludwishafen, Remscheid, Pforzheim, Osnabruck, Mainz, Bielefeld, Gieben, Duren, Solingen, Wilhelmshafen, Karlsruhe, Oberhausen, Heilbronn, Augsburg, Hamm, Knittelfeld, Luneburg, Cuxhaven, Kulmback, Hagen, Saarbrucken, Freiburg, Graz, Koblenz, Ulm, Bonn, Bremmenhaven, Wanne-Eickel, Woms, Lubeck, Schweinfurt, Kleve, Wiener Neustadt, Wiesbaden, Paderborn, Bocholt, Hanau, Hildesheim, Emden, Siegen, Pirmasons, Hale, Bayreuth, Kreuznach, Witten, Aschaffenburg, Kaiserlautern, Gladbeck, Dorsten, Innsbruck, Neumunster, Linz, Klagenfurt, Reutlingen, Recklinghausen, Reuel, Regensburg, Homberg, Elmshorn, Wetzler, Vilach, Hamelin, Konigsburg, Moers, Passau, Solbad Hall I.T, Coburg, Attnang-Puchheim, Friedsrichhafen, Frankfurt-Oder, Danzig, Bozen, Chemnitz, Rostock, Schwerte, Plauen, Rome, Bad Kreuznach, Neapel, Genoa, Mailand, Turin.

Michael Walsh News Services

Independent White European International News

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Postby Werd » 7 years 7 months ago (Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:38 am)
The Dresden target map actually used by Wing Cdr Maurice Smith for the first attack on Dresden. It shows the fan shaped sector he was to attack -- the heart of the famous old city. Those who claim the target was the city's industries or bridges or railroads are lying.

Well Irving has an actual map. I would say that is pretty damning evidence to be combined with the logical deductions made by Jacques Pauwels in his book THE MYTH OF THE GOOD WAR. ... html#Voigt
February 27, 2007 (Tuesday)
Budapest (Hungary)

I have begun work on a dossier on the Dresden death roll. The figure I gave in "Apocalypse 1945: the Destruction of Dresden" was produced as one of the examples of my "manipulating history," aka errors, suggested by the defendants in the Lipstadt Trial. They started with, I think nineteen, the judge rejected seven, leaving twelve including this one (it had taken Professor Richard "Skunky" Evans (right) and his team around twenty man-years, reading all my books, to find these "errors": Twelve mistakes in thirty books is not bad, it means I made less than half an error per book. But that is another matter.

It was Hanns Voigt who suggested my estimate of 135,000 as a median figure. Voigt was a senior school teacher (Oberstudienrat) in West Germany when we corresponded. In 1945 he had been appointed director of the Abteilung Tote of the Missing Persons Bureau in Dresden after the violent RAF bombing raid of February 1945 -- i.e. the bureau's Fatalities Section. Not a bad source, I thought at the time I published my book, as a twenty-five year old in 1963.

The communist regime and its successors and left-wing adherents preferred the figure of 35,000 - a figure rejected as ludicrously low by all the experts who had been in Dresden at the time - Lieutenant-General Klaus Mehnert, the city commandant, who suggested 140,000, and Professor Fetscher the (extreme leftwing) director of civil defence in the city in 1945, who thought 180,000 was closer. Karl Bodenschatz, Hermann Göring's Chef des Ministeramtes who visited Dresden a few days after the raids, spoke in captivity of 150,000.

Needless to say "Skunky" Evans went straight for the lowest figure, 35,000, and accused me of deliberately lying.

I cross examined him on this alleged "manipulation" for forty pages of transcript on the 23rd day of the Lipstadt libel trial , on February 21, 2000; at the end of the day I concluded:

Q. Thank you very much, Professor Evans. I have no further questions"

The Judge, Sir Charles Gray, thanked me:

MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well done, Mr Irving. You have completed your cross-examination as you said you would.

Evans' stock answer to my best sources was to dismiss them as "Nazis," and hence discredited. For example, General Kurt Daluege, chief of German police, giving figures on the disproportionately high number of Jews among the insurance scammers before the Nazis came to power, was, said Evans, a Nazi (correct, no doubt), and hence untrustworthy. I offer no prizes for guessing how many "Nazi" sources Evans himself nonetheless uses in his own turgid history books.

As for Hanns Voigt, Evans dismissed him as a "fascist" (his source was Walter Weidauer, the notorious Communist mayor of Dresden who deliberately destroyed the city's remaining monuments to the Saxon kings out of visceral hatred for all monarchies).

Now I receive belated confirmation of Voigt's worth from a Dresden historian, Walter Schaarschmidt, who is publishing a book on the death-roll controversy. Was Voigt a fascist? Hardly, and I am afraid my belief in Evans as a historian of worth is sadly shaken:

Walther Schaarschmidt writes:

I have managed to find the niece of Hanns Voigt in Dresden, Frau Ursula H.. She reports that Voigt was a music teacher, directed the Sachsenwerk works orchestra and elevated it to third place in the DDR [Communist East Germany] in 1954. In 1955 he emigrated "legally" to Bielefeld. Until that moment the authorities had never questioned Voigt! In Bielefeld he directed the school orchestra of the Max-Planck School and composed his own works. He became an Oberstudientrat and ultimately Studiendirector (director of studies). The pupils elected him Best Teacher year after year. From her mother (Mrs Voigt), Frau H. learned that he had been rigorously interrogated by "the Russians" and tortured. . . But he would not budge from his statements. His widow is still living in Bielefeld, but unfortunately she refuses access to his papers.

German editionDoesn't sound like much of a fascist to me. Of course, in the dark and vasty woods that Professor "Skunky" Evans infests, every bush and shadow must look pretty frightening. Read the transcript, however, and see how well he earned the 250,000 dollars he was paid for his neutral testimony by Lipstadt's defence.

I do believe in the low six figure number for sure now. No matter what crap Taylor has tried to pull. Not even he could fool Pauwels who as seen, fingered Taylor for keeping passages in his book that prove Dresden was not really a threat and also admitting that straffing did occur. But there is still that TB 47 "order of the day" document.

Basically the report was real but someone messed with the numbers in the end.
After the articles were printed in the Washington Star, Goebbels' went to work on further embellishing the level of destruction that occurred in Dresden. On March 4th, 1945, the official report about of the bombing was nationally published in the German controlled Das Reich weekly newspaper (founded by none other than Goebbels himself). The report demonized the bombing as an uncivilized and unnecessary attack on a defenseless city with the sole intention being the mass-murder of innocent and defenseless civilians.14

Later in March, intentions to foster even more outrage about the bombing increased (not figuratively speaking) exponentially. The Dresden Police and SS issued a supplement to the neutral press by issuing a report entitled “order of the day 47” or as it was known at the time "TR47". While the number of those killed was listed on the report as being just over 20,204, with simple ease they cunningly added a zero to the end making the estimate a whopping 202,040. Several neutral newspapers, as well as the nationally published German paper the Das Reich, took the ten-times higher total as being correct and published the total to their readers. The consequences of the extra zero forever result in the death-toll being so wrongly believed.15

And remember on axisforum, someone claimed that Irving changed his mind about the authenticity of the figure.

In that [1963] edition, Irving quoted, at 226, a "Top Secret Order of the Day" dated March 23, 1945 which purported to contain an extract from a report by the Dresden Police President stating that 202,040 bodies had been recovered, primarily of women and children, and that the final death toll was expected to exceed 250,000. As his source for this Irving cited Professor Max Seydewitz' Die Zerstörung und Wiederaufbau von Dresden [The Destruction and Rebuilding of Dresden] (Dresden 1955) no page given. And in 1963 Irving agreed with Seydewitz that this "Order of the Day" was a spurious piece of Nazi propaganda. This should be kept in mind as the tale developes.

Irving's promotion of the German propaganda figure of 250,000 came later in his 1966 English edition, by which time he had gotten hold of a piece of paper which, he asserted, led him to change his mind as to the falsity of the "Order of the Day". I'll try to get into this in detail in another post.

Interesting. Did Taylor ever talk about this change of heart Irving had in the mid sixties? Or did he just focus on Irving's letter to The Times in the early sixties? I must admit that I think it is rare to have six figures with a number that is not 0 in the place of the tenth on the total six digit number. 202,040. It's not something I see much. ... 90305.html
A Marques of Lisbon has arguments about the 1945 Dresden death toll, Sunday, March 20, 2005

I believe there are only three major single-document sources for the Dresden numbers, besides the evidence one could collect through the scattered local information such as the missing person center or the "street books" kept by the searchers who did the clearing of the ruins, apparently pointing to at least 30,000 or 40,000:

TB47 (Tagesbefehl Nr 47, or the Dresden Police and SS "Order of the Day 47", of March 27): This one used to be the best-known estimate, pointing to 202,040 already found dead and to a probable total near 250,000. According to Taylor (Bloomsbury paperback edition, p. 424) it's a faked document, not a post-war one, but one that was leaked at the time to the neutral press by Goebbel's Propaganda Ministry, with the result that (p. 426) "the extent of the wide, long-lasting ripple of international outrage that followed the Dresden bombing represents, at least in part, Goebbels's final, dark masterpiece."

Taylor argues as follows (pages 505 - 506):

"If the 'actual figures' were up to 250,000, as the supporters of the fake TB47 had insisted, of what could the rumors possibly have whispered? Millions of dead? Clearly exceptional permission had been granted, in view of the widespread panic and fear aroused by wildly inflated casualty rates in Dresden, for the real (if temporary) numbers of dead to be cited by those in authority. And the real numbers were 20,240 and 25,000 respectively, [sic: the paragraph ends with a comma, apparently leaving the sentence unfinished and the word "respectively" ambiguous].

"There was indeed only one explanation. A zero had been added to these figures for propaganda purposes. Irving duly wrote a letter to The Times of London in which he admitted that the two six-figures estimates quoted in the so-called 'TB47' were 'probably' a Nazi fake."

I think Taylor may have a point, but allow me a couple of comments besides my asking your present opinion on the value of the FR and the SR as documentary evidence.

First of all, it seems to me that if the TB47 really had been "Goebbels's dark masterpiece", one would hardly expect to find in it a forgotten "exceptional permission for the real numbers of dead to be cited", left over from a previous report concerning much smaller figures and sounding odd in the context of the 250,000 projection with no actual rumors greater than that circulating, specially since no official numbers, large or small, were to be publicized anywhere, as Taylor makes clear elsewhere. "Goebbels's clear nonsense" might have been a more appropriate designation for the "masterpiece".

On the other hand, it doesn't surprise me that rumors really could exceed the TB47 figures. After all, most accounts of the preparation of the mission, from the British side, agree that something out of the ordinary was being sought for the "education" of the approaching Soviets, so to speak, resulting in the sort of incendiary bombing plan (cutting off the exit ways, with a second day of bombing to make any relief as difficult as possible etc.) used for inflicting maximum casualties.

And it's clear that the presence of a large number of refugees from Silesia was also known inside, as well as outside, Germany. If the U.S. Armed Forces paper Stars and Stripes itself later quoted Allied PWs who were brought in by the Germans for the relief work, placing the figure at 300,000 plus an indeterminate number among the 1,000,000 evacuees who had no records on them, then it seems clear that rumors may indeed have suggested greater figures than the actual ones in TB47.

Second, if the Dresden casualty figure is brought down to Taylor's 25,000, one is left with the very odd result that Allied air power, employed for exemplary purposes to its full measure and with no restrictions, over a specially vulnerable civilian target of large size, near the end of the War, when Allied air superiority was absolute and German defences nearly inexistent, was less effective than it used to be in previous, much more difficult, operations over Hamburg or Berlin, for instance. I believe the extension of the sad ruins left in Dresden suggest a degree of utter destruction rarely seen elsewhere, rather than a botched mission with only a fraction of the intended results achieved.

All in all, as already shown above, Irving's trip to the archive proves that the death toll was at least in the fairly low six figures,
I think that NOW, he does not need the order of the day. It's too bad he didn't discover this bit of information in the British archives before he published APOCALYPSE which is the last printing ever of his Dresden book. Oh well. That's what the internet is for. :D
Last edited by Werd on Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Barrington James » 7 years 7 months ago (Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:13 am)

A quick look at the reviews of Taylor’s book on Amazon , if not my personal conversations with most, Brits , Canadians and other members of the British Common Wealth, will quickly tells me that many, perhaps most of these poor souls, still think that the Germans “got what they deserved”. Such was the power of British lies and propaganda. These people still haven’t figured how and why the British could suddenly come up with four engine city bombers capable of caring bomb loads of close to 20, 000 pounds that had been designed to specifically destroy cities when German had no real city bombers other than dive bombers that had been designed to support the army. Were the Germans so stupid that they thought that they could win such a bombing war? Or was the city bombing war long planned? The answer is obvious.

A further reading of F.J.P. Veale. “Advance to Barbarism“ , or better yet of Spaight or Harris, “ Bombing Vindicated”. These were the two guys who, too gleefully in my opinion, implemented the long planned British destruction of the German cities, and, more importantly, not of Hitler, but of Germany itself.

Consequently Dresden is just the last and worst example of the missplaced hate the British and the Americans had of Germans and Japanese. Clearly there was no need for the British and the Americans to destroy such a beautiful city as Dresden any more than there was a need for the Yanks to destroy both Hiroshima and Nagasaki…within four days…and then follow-up this bombing with another thousand plane fire bombing of Tokyo, all while the Japanese were trying to negotiate a surrender.

How many people were killed in the then crowded Dresden population of one million?

Let’s put it this way: 3, 300 tons or 6,600,00 pounds of bombs were dropped on the centre of Dresden, the temperature of the centre of the city got as hot as 1, 800 F….even the asphalt in the streets melted… and those in the bomb shelters actually melted into a human soup. If ten pounds of bombs killed just one person that means 660, 000 people died over the two nights of bombing. Probably more.

Small wonder the Allies have been so adamant in perpetuating the Nazi myths.

You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Postby hermod » 7 years 7 months ago (Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:44 am)

Barrington James wrote:Let’s put it this way: 3, 300 tons or 6,600,00 pounds of bombs were dropped on the centre of Dresden, the temperature of the centre of the city got as hot as 1, 800 F….even the asphalt in the streets melted… and those in the bomb shelters actually melted into a human soup. If ten pounds of bombs killed just one person that means 660, 000 people died over the two nights of bombing. Probably more.

I remember I've read sand in the underground of Dresden even turned into glass (vitrified sand). I don't know if this has been confirmed by archeologists or not. But if it has, this would give a good idea about the chances for survival which the inhabitants stuck in the bomb shelters had.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Postby Werd » 7 years 7 months ago (Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:08 am)

grenadier @ Bombing Dresden to save one Jew
Looks like R. H. Eggleston took Taylor to task years ago.

original amazon review spotted here. ... QII9E15AU8

My personal views...

1. Dresden was not of military significance
2. Dresden contained refugees that were passing through
3. Dresden saw straffing by allied planes which shot survivors.
4. Dresden has at least low six figures for death tolls.
5. Dresden was hit to show off power to the Soviets.
6. Dresden was hit to attack morale of the Germans

"2. DRESDEN WAS A MAJOR RAIL HUB FOR THE MOVEMENT OF TROOPS, MUNITIONS, ETC. Taylor provides solid statistical data about rail movements to support his argument that Dresden's marshaling yards were a legitimate target. Let's assume these yards were critically important. But Allied planners did not consider them to be sufficiently important to include them as a target in the RAF's crushing attack of February 13th - which concentrated on the city's residential quarter. When the USAAF attacked rail facilities the next day, there was no follow up then or later, even though the yards were quickly returned to full operation. It's apparent that much of the "communications hub" argument was added later on as a justification - after the attack took place."

Nice try Taylor. You're not fooling us. The shills for your theories are so obvious that one English reviewer said you disproved the straffing allegation while Jacques Pauwells' article on Dresden shows that you admit it happened in your own book due to certain data you cited. Or maybe forgot to NOT cite.

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Postby Barrington James » 7 years 7 months ago (Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:19 pm)

Hello....There is absolutely no doubt that most , if not all, of England and the Allies went mad when Hitler started to finally retaliate, when he fianlly “took the bait” so cleverly laid out by Churchill and his gang and began to bomb England in revenge, particularly London. Even today one’s very mention that perhaps WW2 was a horrible mistake, that the bombing and destruction of every city in Germany, above all Dresden, was wrong, let alone criminal, will bring one, in most cases I am sure, headlong into a near violent reaction from most Brits: “”They got what they deserved” …followed by the slamming of a door.

What most Brits do not understand can be found starting on p. 168 of F.J.P.Veale’s book “Advance to Barbarism”. Veale claims that “ it is one of the greatest triumphs of modern emotional engineering that, in spite of the plain facts of the case which could never be disguised or even marginally distorted, the British public throughout the Blitz (1940-1941) remained convinced that the entire responsibility for the suffering it was undergoing rested on the German leaders.”

“It was not until 1944, by which the Luftwaffe had become paralysed from a lack of petrol and the issue of the struggle was no longer in doubt, ( and may I add, the lack of well trained German pilots), that the strict taboo on .... the ( true) facts were lifted …and Mr. J.M. Spaight was permitted to publish a book “Bombing Vindicated”, much to the confusion of the average Brit who never for a moment doubted the use of British bombing. Such is the power of British and American Propaganda. And such was the madness of Spaight and his kind that he thought he tried to justify the murder of German civilans in their beds.

Later on when other books were written by such people as Liddell Hart and FJP Taylor that questioned the entire necessary of the war , let alone the claim of Churchill himself that the war was “unnecessary” , that the stock reply then became that the bombing was “ the reprisal for the bombing of Rotterdam and Warsaw,” ( and Coventry). Spaight dismissed this argument with contempt.” The big differenced between the Nazi bombing and that of the British bombing ( that he was so proud of may I add ) was that the German bombing did not take place until the “German armies were at the gates of those cities….and thus they conformed to the old rules of siege bombardment.” Whereas the British plan was to actually fly over the battle fields to bomb cities. How "splendid" can we get? Small wonder Spaight was so proud.

Both Bomber Harris and Spaight agree that if the Germans had real city bombers and thus had made destroying cities their main objective that London would have suffered the same fate as Hamburg , that the Germans would probably have won the war. I claim that the war would not have taken place in the first place but I digress.

In short the “splendid decision” to make the main goal of the British to destroy the German cities taken 1936, to quote Spaight, was the brain child of the British Air command. And I would add that the destruction of Dresden was just an extension of this plan, their icing on the cake so to speak. The Brits were just as war insane as the Americans and just mistaken as the Americans in their wars against Japan. Germany and all their dozens of wars since that time. The British started WW2 with the understanding that their bombs would quickly be able to win the war and to destroy their chief rival in Europe, perhaps forever. But it didn’t work out that way. It more or less destroyed Europe- except for Germany. And it hasn’t worked out very well for the USA either, but that is another story for another time.

And try as the Brits and Yanks do to spin their reasons for the bombing of Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo in the last few weeks of the war, and the bombing of dozens of countries since WW2 , their destrcution of these cities and countries tells us everything we have to know about WW2 and the Allies.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Postby Werd » 7 years 7 months ago (Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:37 am) ... ns-in.html
Thursday, October 24, 2013
U.S. drone killings of civilians in Pakistan have WWII precedent
Long before American drones were murdering civilians in Pakistan, American pilots were committing similar war crimes in Germany

In a 1985 autobiography by the American who was the first pilot to break the sound barrier, the author described how, while serving in the US armed forces during World War II in the autumn of 1944, his fighter group was attacking Germany and "...assigned an area fifty miles by fifty miles and ordered to strafe anything that moved...We weren't asked how we felt zapping people. It was a miserable, dirty mission, but we all took off on time and did it ... We were ordered to commit an atrocity, pure and simple, but the brass who approved this action probably felt justified because wartime Germany wasn't easily divided between 'innocent civilians' and its military machine. The farmer tilling his potato field might have been feeding German troops.”

Chuck Yeager, Yeager: An Autobiography (New York: Bantam Books, 1985) pp. 79-80.

So Americans were straffing German civilians a year before Dresden. I have to wonder why others think it is such a leap to think they would do it again a year later in Dresden. Are their heads really up their rear ends that far? Incredible.

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