Veronica Clark drops the ball.

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Elroy
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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Elroy » 9 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:35 pm)

Hannover wrote:Elroy:

Thanks for your comments.
Not sure what the "liars" forum is.

Regardless, have a look at:
'Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939'
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7525

Merry Christmas, Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.


Hello Hannover;

To recap there are 2 TWO points of contention here from the National Socialists...

(a) Polish persecutions and murders of German minorities BEFORE Sep 1st as a causative factor for the Hitlerite invasion...
(b) The mass deportation of German civilians to Polish concentration camps prior to WW2

Collectively what we might call WW2 causative polish "atrocities" prior to Sep 1st.

Now the thread you linked was a back and forth argument between yourself and another poster "Toshiro"..

In it you linked multiple sources which seemed to be Nazi sources and books written referencing such sources.

It's a case of they say, they deny.

I don't think there'll be any "hard" evidence either way to be honest.

I'm obviously of the camp there WAS serious persecutions and it did factor as a reason but so far have to refrain from making "strong" assertions because I haven't seen anyhthing to that effect yet which "proves" it.

I think a concentrated massing of the available evidence soft as it may be should be put together here- with correspondences from allied sources which seem to confirm as well which I will help to drag up myself...



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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Hannover » 9 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:57 pm)

Elroy, these are not 'Nazi' sources.

From that thread:
Hannover wrote:This is informative:
.”under Polish pressure the Germans in the southern and eastern districts were subjected to oppressive treatment. On Aug. 19 1920 the Poles felt strong enough, indeed, to make an attempt to seize the country by force. On all sides bands of Poles, chiefly recruited from Congress Poland, usurped authority. A number of Germans were forcibly carried across the frontier into Poland, and many were killed. Several weeks elapsed before it was possible to quell this rising and restore order…It had been suggested by the Entente that non-resident Upper Silesians of the German Reich should vote outside Silesia, at Cologne. Germany protested against this, and her protest was recognized as valid by the Entente. In January 1921 the date of the plebiscite was fixed for March 20 1921.
An immediate revival took place in the use of terrorism by the Poles, especially in the districts of Rybnik, Pless, Kattowitz, and Beuthen. It reached its climax in the days preceding the plebiscite. Voters from other parts of the German Reich were frequently refused admission to the polls; sometimes they were maltreated and even in some instances murdered; and houses where outvoters were staying were set on fire… The day after the plebiscite the Polish excesses recommenced, and from that date onwards continued without interruption… Practically all the towns voted for Germany… the first days of May witnessed a new Polish insurrection which assumed far greater proportions than the former one. Korfanty had secretly raised a well-organized Polish force which was provided with arms and munition from across the border, and was reinforced by large bodies of men from Poland…
By June 20 the British troops had again occupied the larger towns, while the Poles had the upper hand in the rural districts. As a result of the difficulties in paying his men and providing them with food Korfanty now lost control over his followers. Independent bands were formed which plundered the villages, ill-treated the Germans, and murdered many of them.”

- 1922 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “SILESIA, UPPER”


This article appeared in the Polish newspaper Die Liga der Grossmacht in October, 1930:
A struggle between Poland and Germany is inevitable. We must prepare ourselves for it systematically. Our goal is a new Battle of Tannenberg. However, this time, a Tannenberg in the suburbs of Berlin. Prussia must be reconquered for Poland, and Prussia, indeed, as far as the River Spree. In a war with Germany there will be no prisoners…

“Tannenberg” refers to the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 when a Polish army defeated the German Teutonic Knights. The article is full of many more anti-German remarks.

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).
https://www.amazon.com/Dokumente-Polnis ... 3887411781

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- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Elroy » 9 months 3 weeks ago (Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:45 pm)

Hannover wrote:Elroy, these are not 'Nazi' sources.

From that thread:
Hannover wrote:This is informative:
.”under Polish pressure the Germans in the southern and eastern districts were subjected to oppressive treatment. On Aug. 19 1920 the Poles felt strong enough, indeed, to make an attempt to seize the country by force. On all sides bands of Poles, chiefly recruited from Congress Poland, usurped authority. A number of Germans were forcibly carried across the frontier into Poland, and many were killed. Several weeks elapsed before it was possible to quell this rising and restore order…It had been suggested by the Entente that non-resident Upper Silesians of the German Reich should vote outside Silesia, at Cologne. Germany protested against this, and her protest was recognized as valid by the Entente. In January 1921 the date of the plebiscite was fixed for March 20 1921.
An immediate revival took place in the use of terrorism by the Poles, especially in the districts of Rybnik, Pless, Kattowitz, and Beuthen. It reached its climax in the days preceding the plebiscite. Voters from other parts of the German Reich were frequently refused admission to the polls; sometimes they were maltreated and even in some instances murdered; and houses where outvoters were staying were set on fire… The day after the plebiscite the Polish excesses recommenced, and from that date onwards continued without interruption… Practically all the towns voted for Germany… the first days of May witnessed a new Polish insurrection which assumed far greater proportions than the former one. Korfanty had secretly raised a well-organized Polish force which was provided with arms and munition from across the border, and was reinforced by large bodies of men from Poland…
By June 20 the British troops had again occupied the larger towns, while the Poles had the upper hand in the rural districts. As a result of the difficulties in paying his men and providing them with food Korfanty now lost control over his followers. Independent bands were formed which plundered the villages, ill-treated the Germans, and murdered many of them.”

- 1922 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “SILESIA, UPPER”


This article appeared in the Polish newspaper Die Liga der Grossmacht in October, 1930:
A struggle between Poland and Germany is inevitable. We must prepare ourselves for it systematically. Our goal is a new Battle of Tannenberg. However, this time, a Tannenberg in the suburbs of Berlin. Prussia must be reconquered for Poland, and Prussia, indeed, as far as the River Spree. In a war with Germany there will be no prisoners…

“Tannenberg” refers to the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 when a Polish army defeated the German Teutonic Knights. The article is full of many more anti-German remarks.

Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).
https://www.amazon.com/Dokumente-Polnis ... 3887411781

Image

- Hannover


Yes I think the following facts are well established beyond any possibility of refute...

1. The consistent ill-treatment of the German's by the Poles from WW1's end to WW2 generally.
2. In the months and weeks prior to Sep 1st 1939 there was "allied" and "neutral" correspondence which seems to believe in Polish atrocities.
3. German correspondence to allied leaders shows a genuine concern over said atrocities
4. The documentary analysis of all the powers shows clearly the allied agitation and push for war and Hitler and the National Socialists doing everything they can to avoid war- whilst still reaching a solution to the corridor and Danzig problems via very reasonable proposals
5. Last minute anti-war German attempts
6. The aggressive behaviour and near imperialistic ambition of Poland itself as evidenced by their own seizure of territory.

Igonoring alleged incursions such as Gleiwitz and firings on passenger airline allegations and alleged maps/plans to conquer parts of Germany (could be subject of another thread)..

The general picture from 1919-1939 is an important thing to paint a picture for certain but very specifically I feel we need to confine ourselves from March 1939- end of Aug 1939. I.e. during the actual playing out of the Polish question from a viewpoint of Hitler's proposal of the extraterritorial rail and road link which led to the international crisis, preyed upon by the allies.

Hannover- I have no "doubt" about the reality which I think is shown by the overall picture and overall evidence- that Hitler did not want war at all, the very idea in fact is totally preposterous! He wanted the reversal of versailles and the unification of the German people beyond any real question. Immediately backed up by the fact after beating Poland he offered to "clear" Poland- sans the former German parts- not the actions of someone bent on the "commonly" held view of "lebensraum" at all.

I just find so far that the evidence for the polish atrocities from Mar to Aug all inclusive 1939 is FAR from dubious to be sure, but referenced only by Nazi sources and somewhat otherwise by non-German sphere statesmen in correspondence who apparently believed there were also.

The counter to this is based in a situation which otherwise indicates their proposal that the atrocities were fake to be false- but the fact that no stronger evidence can really be shown any better than their own citing of false flaggery by Hitler by virtue of the fact nothing much can be produced otherwise cannot simply be dismissed.

I call it "party testimony" vs "party testimony"

But I'm not properly read on the matter yet. However I feel that IF more properly read people did have something more specific (such as yourself)- then you would certainly produce it.

As an aside other matters which have concerned me are...

- Allegations of Poles moving German's to concentration camps (again from Mar to late Aug 39)
- Allegations of Poles opening fire on civilian German airlines
- Gleiwitz incident and other incursions and firings on Germany close to official allied claimed outbreak of war
- The official statement of Emil Hacha's daughter allegedly claiming "her father willingly and w/o force made Czechoslovakia a protectorate- for which I can find no other evidence of this statement other than in Hoggan's book- which is suspiciously unreferenced.

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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Werd » 23 hours 4 minutes ago (Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:26 pm)

I was debating someone else about this issue and he kept saying things like there is no evidence Poles committed any atrocities before the German invasion. I copied and pasted many bits from this very topic here on codoh. He ignored what was in front of him. So I replied:
Werd wrote:
There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the Poles massacred any Germans prior to the start of WW2. If so, provide evidence.

Stop ignoring what is right in front of you.
Veronica K. Clark...claims revisionists are just as unbending as the other side. She says near the end that writers like Richard Tedor and others who claim that HItler invaded Poland because of the Bromberg massacre are making mistakes because Hitler invaded on September 1 while the Bromberg massacre occured on the 3rd. She obviously missed this part from jrbooksonline.

GERMANS: ABUSED MINORITY!

An odd concept you may have never heard of. But it happened.

Atrocity photos you'll never see on the History Channel.

The historical record, as represented by the German government at the time, on Bromberg "Bloody Sunday" and related incidents -- 58,000 claimed dead or missing by Feb 1940. The German invasion was Sep 1939, but it's important to understand that many of the outrages had preceded the German invasion. This was proved by the amount of decomposition of the bodies. Thus, these atrocities cannot be excused simply as reprisals for the German invasion (which would be wrong anyway). They included 19 year-old girls with their faces smashed, amputations, disembowelments, shot thru' the eye, death-trauma births, you name it. Poles had been merrily slaughtering anything or anybody German since at least as early as April 1939, with smaller incidents stretching back to the close of WW I -- you haven't been told that by the Mass Media, or the fact that these atrocities were one of the main causes for the German invasion of Poland, something that was meant by the Germans to be a local solution to a local problem.

Image
A German priest gives his respects to the innocent fallen of Bromberg

&
Also, Von Ribbentrop defended the attack of Poland by stating that between 1919-1939, one million Germans had been expelled from Polish territory accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored.
IOW, the World Court did not find the accusations of Polish atrocities to be bogus.

further reading:
the book: "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten. Verbrechen an Deutschen 1919-1939 nach amtlichen Quellen" (Documentations of Polish Cruelties. Crimes Against Germans 1919-1939 According to Official Sources).

Image

And here's another one I just found.
Image
The dead spoke Polish. Documents of Polish atrocities against Germans 1919-1949.
Published : Arndt, c1999

He later tried denying documented facts again. So I responeded:
Werd wrote:
Goody67 wrote:Do you agree or disagree that the Nazis viewed the Poles as culturally and racially inferior?

You mean like the Poles who were slaughtering Germans prior to WW II but you are pretending never happened?
Where is the proof that "many of the outrages had preceded the German invasion. This was proved by the amount of decomposition of the bodies"?

In those two books, dummy. Google translate:
Arndt-Verlag, ed .:
The death spoke Polish
Documents
Polish atrocities
to Germans 1919-1949

After the Foreign Office of the Federal Republic of Germany enforced a ban on distribution of the book Documents of Polish atrocities in court, the issuing publisher has now continued the sad subject of Polish crimes against Germans.

If one speaks of the painful history of the coexistence of Germans and Poles in the first half of the 20th century, one often encounters the following idea: there is a perpetrator nation - and that is the German people, and there is a sacrificial people - that is the Polish. This very simplified picture dominates public opinion (or published opinion) almost entirely. Only those who are really affected, the Germans from East Prussia, West Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia, as well as some scientists, who are hardly known to the general public, have a more differentiated view. Therefore, this book is overdue now. In addition to the Polish attacks since 1919 in Poznan, West Prussia and Upper Silesia and the massacres of 1939, which have gone down in history as the " Bromberg Blood Sunday ", the Polish eviction crimes and the torments in Polish post-war KZs take up a lot of space in this factory. With new, hitherto unknown, cruel documentary footage of slaughtered Germans, the balance of the horror is documented, to which in the 20th century innocent German civilians - often women and children - were repeatedly exposed by Polish fanatics.

Reconciliation and understanding can not be bought by accepting a one-sided and incomplete historiography. In the semi-official record of the suffering, the mass suffering and death of innocent German people is missing at the end and in the aftermath of World War II. However, crimes are not terrible in one case, the other less terrible, depending on who they perpetrated. Wrong can not be repaid by injustice. Tears have no nationality.

(Extracts from the publisher's brochure and cover text.)

Warning: only for readers with strong nerves!

(317 pp., 17.5 x 24.5 cm, bound, with numerous photos)


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Re: Veronica Clark drops the ball.

Postby Werd » 22 hours 58 minutes ago (Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:31 pm)

He then said:
Goody67 wrote:I was referring to the "POLNISCHE BLUTSCHULD".

http://www.usmbooks.com/german_massacre_book.html

Find me any quotes from either book you have referenced that mention any pre-WW2 massacres. The victims were murdered in September and photographed at later dates.

Upon which point I handed him his own ass.
Werd wrote:Goody denies any Pole did anything to any German before September 3. And YET from his own link.
According to sworn testimony in Polnische Blutschuld, from 1 - 3 September ethnic Germans living in western Polish cities like Bromberg, were systematically murdered, beaten to death, shot, stabbed, had their skulls smashed and limbs cut off. When the German Wehrmacht arrived around 4 September they found plundered houses, bodies buried in shallow graves with tongues cut off, without eyes, and skulls with holes so big that the brain had slid out.


And finished it off with THIS:

He has not responded yet because he was given a 6 hour ban for ad hominem attacks. We'll see if he has anything of substance when he returns. Probably not!


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