'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
Revision
Member
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:09 pm
Contact:

'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby Revision » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon May 10, 2021 1:49 pm)

Here is a good article debunking many falsities of 9/11 "truthers":
https://www.cancelthiscompany.com/911-lies.html

Audio article version: http://www.bitchute.com/video/n5mUCoVXVVOo/


Includes:

1) “Pull it”
2) The BBC was given advance knowledge of the collapse of WTC7
3) 2,200 Architects and Engineers
4) "I heard explosions!"
6) Thermite was found in WTC dust
7) The WTC's were designed to withstand a jet crash
8 ) Cell phone calls from planes are impossible / fake calls
9) Flight 93 did not crash in Shanksville
10) A missile crashed into the Pentagon - Not Flight 77
11) NORAD allowed Flight 77 to crash into the Pentagon
12) Not hot enough to melt the steel
13) Molten Steel
14) The Hijackers are still alive
15) Guys living in caves are incapable of this
16) The holes in the Pentagon and WTC were too small. No planes.
17) Passports from Flight 93 crash were planted. No planes.
18) Prior to 911 no building had ever collapsed due to fire
19) Commercial jets can't fly 500 MPH at low elevation without breaking up
21) The mainstream media lies /never covers conspiracies
22) "You're a shill"
23) The US government lies all the time



Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 911

~ AN EXERCISE IN LOGIC ~




INTRODUCTION:
Never mind that 911 played out before our very eyes on live TV in the busiest city in the world. Never mind that Al Qaeda has repeatedly admitted to the attacks and had tried previously to take down the North WTC tower in '93 and vowed to try again. Never mind that nobody from air traffic control, nor American Airlines, nor first scene responders, nor crash scene investigators, nor forensic investigators, nor police or fire department responders, nor witnesses, nor news crews, nor mysterious demolition crews have ever come forward and claimed to have been either a would be conspirator (who said no to the evil government recruiter) or a conspirator as part of a nefarious 911 plot. Never mind that a U.S. District Judge called the truth movement a product of "cynical delusion and fantasy" and 3 more judges agreed. But some delusional anti-government types have desperately tried to challenge the obvious, taking the impossible position that the US government blew itself up on 911 all in a massive conspiracy of thousands of evil government operatives. After 14 years of searching for actual hard evidence and waiting for a single conspirator to come forward, truthers still have nothing -- Just a rabid hatred of government that obscures all logic. It's time for them to hang it up. But for posterity we can still laugh at the most desperate and absurd truth movement lies....



1) “Pull it”

In a 2002 PBS conducted an interview with WTC Building 7 lessee Larry Silverstein. In that interview he used an ambiguous word in two sentences... "pull"

"I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure that they were going to be able to contain the fire. And I said you know we've had such terrible loss of life. Maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it. And they made that decision to pull, and then we watched the building collapse." -- Larry Silverstein


Truthers hailed this as proof positive that building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition, and this sparked a back and forth red herring debate about whether the ambiguous word "pull" is or isn't a term used by the fire department or in the demolition business.

Unfortunately truthers didn't think this one out.

For starters, the only thing that matters is what the word "pull" meant to Larry Silverstein. A spokesperson for Silverstein later said that he meant withdraw firefighters. And for what it's worth, according to at least 11 demolition companies surveyed, "pull it" is not a term that they use to describe "demolishing a building". Furthermore, fire departments are in the business of fighting fires -- Not demolishing buildings!

And lo and behold, NY Deputy Fire Chief Peter Hayden used the same P-word to describe moving people out to safety when asked about WTC7 in an interview with Firehouse Magazine:

“...we started PULLING the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to PULL guys back because we were concerned for their safety" -- Deputy Chief Peter Hayden of the New York Fire Department


But just for fun, let's assume for a moment that when Larry said "pull" he meant "trigger the explosives". Why on earth would he openly admit to insurance fraud in a TV interview? It makes absolutely no sense. And better yet, why hasn't the insurance company that paid out on the claim investigated this? Obviously even they don't believe in controlled demolition fairy tales.

Even more ridiculous is that in believing that Larry meant "trigger the explosives" you must also believe that the New York City Fire Department conspired with Larry Silverstein to commit insurance fraud by demolishing World Trade Center 7! And you must also accept that conspirators had both 1) advance knowledge of the 911 attacks and 2) had previously arranged for crews to rig building 7 with explosives without being detected by tenants or security. It's so fantastically absurd that even Hollywood would reject this script.

The cost of rebuilding WTC7 plus paying back the loans on WTC 7 exceeded the amount of the WTC 7 insurance payout. Therefore there would be no motive to destroy WTC7 in the first place.

Furthermore, Larry Silverstein is already worth 3.5 billion. Why would a billionaire risk going to prison for insurance fraud, for potentially accidentally killing hundreds or thousands of people with high explosives in order to hopefully save money when he's already mega-wealthy? The idea of rigging a huge building full of tenants with explosives without being noticed or getting caught is certifiably absurd to begin with. How would you even begin to recruit people to work on such a massive nefarious project, and then keep them quiet? Nobody would even consider such a thing. Only truthers dream this stuff up!

Then we have these facts: WTC7 burned out of control for 7 hours. Firefighters and others on the scene said that by 2 PM WTC7 was bulging and shortly thereafter began making creaking noises. Accordingly, NYFD evacuated the area due to safety concerns. Seismic records recorded by the Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory showed no trace of detonation charges. The plane impacts and building collapses produced signals, but there was no trace of any detonation charges. WTC7 did not collapse symmetrically. No conspirators have ever come forward with any information about any nefarious destruction of WTC7. Case closed.



2) The BBC was given advance knowledge of the collapse of WTC7

The media makes mistakes all the time. They are often guilty of being hasty. The Chicago Tribune famously printed the false headline Dewey Defeats Truman. TV news rooms are notoriously chaotic when it comes to reporting the news as events unfold live. Yet somehow truthers surmised that when the BBC reported on the collapse of WTC7 twenty minutes before it happened, that this was the smoking gun. They declared that BBC must have been given advance knowledge of an evil plot to demolish the building.

Once again truthers never thought this one out.

First of all, a logical person has to wonder why would you give a news organization, let alone a foreign news organization advance knowledge of a nefarious act? Why not just let them report it as it happens?

It had already been reported that WTC7 was on fire, it was bulging and making creaking noises, and that fire crews had been pulled out of the area for their safety. It is easy to see how the story got twisted around. Somehow somebody mistook "about to collapse" as "has collapsed".

Furthermore, for someone to believe this conspiracy you must also have an even larger web of conspirators. In addition to a mysterious crew of demolition conspirators slipping past security with wires and explosives rigging the building for weeks and without being noticed by tenants, plus Larry Silverstein, plus NY Fire Department conspirators, plus an insurance company looking the other way, you would also have to have secretive play-by-play communication between the NY fire department and a mysterious government control center conspirator who in turn contacts a producer conspirator at the British TV network. It's more ridiculous than anything Hollywood could produce.

When conspiracy theorist's best evidence of controlled demolition is a false news report, they have reached the point of futility.



3) 2,200 Architects and Engineers

Some 2,200+ architects and engineers world wide apparently signed a petition demanding an independent investigation into the destruction of the world trade center buildings because they question the "official story".

What a small group of people think is not actual evidence, and truthers are devoid of any actual evidence. But for whoever might be swayed by the opinions of others, at first glance 2,200 might seem impressive... That is until you realize that, according to US labor statistics, there are 1.6 million architects and engineers in the United States alone!!! It's fair to assume that world wide there might be 10 times that many architects and engineers. So that means that perhaps only about 0.00014% of all architects and engineers signed this petition, or nearly one out of every 7,500 architects and engineers! That's beyond dismal! And you have to assume that some of these architects and engineers who signed the petition are from countries who are not exactly best of friends with the US (like Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, etc). Furthermore what percentage of these architects and engineers actually have training and experience with 50 and 110 story skyscrapers rather than just ordinary commercial property, residential homes, mud huts in Pakistan, etc?

And finally, what is stopping these 2,200 architects and engineers from conducting additional studies on their own? They are free to investigate all they want! The truth is that they have already been investigating 911 for over 13 years but still have no hard evidence of any conspiracy and no conspirators or would be conspirators have ever come forward (in a world where somebody... anybody always leaks information). In real life, when there is something nefarious, these things investigate themselves as whistleblowers come forward, yet nothing of the sort has ever materialized. So this petition itself is one big red herring. It's an attempt by truthers to create a bubble of uncertainty.



4) "I heard explosions!"

Some witnesses reported hearing "explosions" to describe what they heard when each of the 3 buildings collapsed in NYC. Truthers didn't think this one out because all 3 of the building collapses are already captured on video (complete with audio) and this footage tells a different story. There is no need to "piece together" what happened when it's already on video! Video does not lie or get confused. No Vegas-like explosions are heard in any footage of 911.

The average Joe on the street does not know what a collapsing building is supposed to sound like. It's loud and it makes a rumbling sound -- like an explosion. Again, anyone can listen to the collapses on YouTube and play them back over and over. The fact that truthers are ignoring video proof in favor of cherry picking witness descriptors is very telling.



5) Free-fall speed

This lie traveled around the world and even got regurgitated by buffoon Rosie O'Donnell on the View who stated that each WTC tower fell in 9 seconds. In reality it took the South tower about 15 seconds to collapse and the North tower collapsed in about 22 seconds.

Furthermore, from simply looking at video of the collapse, one can clearly see large pieces of debris falling over the side and away from the main structure at a much faster speed than the main structure. There is no need for a physics degree and complex physics calculations. These pieces of debris represent the speed of gravity because they are falling through thin air without resistance. By the time this debris hits ground level the main structure is still collapsing up around perhaps the 40th floor.



6) Thermite was found in WTC dust

BYU professor Steven E. Jones published a paper claiming that he discovered traces of thermite in WTC dust. For starters this paper was not peer reviewed by a civil engineering journal such as the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Jones is a physics professor but apparently has no experience in building collapse forensics. Brigham Young University's structural engineering professors do not agree with Jones' claims. In fact, at dust the request of BYU administrators, Jones removed his paper from BYU's website and was placed on paid leave.

Then James Millette, a scientist of forensics, particle and materials studies since 1972 did his own study of WTC dust. Finally someone who is qualified! Millette essentially debunked Jones, demonstrating that there is no thermite in any shape, form, or function in ground zero dust particles. In fact some of what Jones had thought was elements left behind from a termite reaction was nothing more than paint and carbon steel, according to Millette.

“The red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and kaolin clay pigments.”

“There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminium particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips are not thermite or nano-thermite.”


Furthermore, you don't have to be a forensic scientist to figure out that the WTC buildings were not brought down by controlled demolition. All one has to do is look at video of the collapse of the WTC towers and then use logic. Each of the two WTC buildings began to collapse exactly at the point of the fires. If the buildings were rigged with thermite and triggered by fuses you have to say to yourself... Wait a minute! These fires burned for 56 minutes (South tower) and 1 hour and 43 minutes (North tower) before collapsing, but the thermite didn't get set off. And you also have to ask yourself how did the "big bad government" know precisely which floors the planes where going to crash at? And why wait so long? Why not collapse the buildings upon impact of the planes? And what about those planes loaded with jet fuel??? How anyone can look at planes hitting the towers and think that it was something else, is going through an exercise in stupidity.



7) The WTC's were designed to withstand a jet crash

This truther assertion is just plain false, yet somehow this lie has also traveled around the truther world. In reality the WTC buildings were designed to hopefully withstand fire resulting from a smaller Boeing 707 traveling at slow speed (186 MPH) and low on fuel. On 911 the towers were hit by 767's that were not only flying faster (at 470 and 590 MPH) but were also loaded with fuel. Some question why does the element of speed matter? The force of a collision increases exponentially with speed. For example a 100% increase in velocity results in not twice as much kinetic energy but 4 times as much.

A better question is for truthers to answer. If one believes that "the big bad government" pre-planted thermite where the planes crashed (this is where the buildings began to collapse), then how on earth did thermite and intricate wiring survive the impacts and explosions? As usual truthers never thought this one out.



8 ) Cell phone calls from planes are impossible / fake calls

Truthers claim that the phone conversations between passengers and loved ones from aboard flight 93 were impossible because cell phones were not designed for calls from high altitudes. As always, truthers never thought this one out.

For starters this theory is coupled with the fantastical claim that no plane crashed in Shanksville, PA or in Washington DC. Never mind that we already have video proof of planes crashing into the world trade center buildings! If you can connect simple dots then you can immediately discard the "no planes" theory as a desperate fairy tale.

In reality most of the calls from flight 93 were made using onboard air phones -- not cell phones. Only two cell phone calls were placed. Despite numerous truther videos and websites claiming the contrary, high altitude cell phone calls are indeed possible. This has been outlined by numerous experts and in numerous articles. The ability to connect a call and the connection duration depends on various factors such as altitude, proximity to cell towers, and the speed of the aircraft.

To believe that these calls were staged you must also assume that either 1) the family members are all lying about the conversations they had, or 2) a team of evil government pranksters somehow managed to prerecord voices of each passenger then placed and recorded each call in real time by playing samples of the pre-recorded voices. Then you have to ask why go to all of this enormous trouble??? Icing on the cake? Why not just let it all play out without placing "fake" calls to loved ones? It makes absolutely no sense.



9) Flight 93 did not crash in Shanksville

This absurd conspiracy theory was born out of ignorance of what a plane crash is supposed to look like from a helicopter. When overhead photos didn't show a debris field and a cartoon cut out of the plane, truthers cried foul.

Most planes attempt to make an emergency landing -- Not Flight 93, which was hijacked on a suicide mission and crashed at a 40 degree angle. As a result, most of the wreckage including the engines was pummeled into the ground, out of sight. Small debris was found above ground but was small enough that it was not visible from the high aerial shot of the crash scene. PSA Flight 1771 also left a similar crater and empty crash scene when it crashed in 1987.

Even though flight 93 went down in a very rural area, there were many documented witnesses.

The cockpit voice recorder captured the final 30 minutes of the flight. Hijacker Ziad Jarrah's voice is heard announcing to passengers that a bomb is onboard, etc. Air traffic control also recorded Captain Jason Dahl shouting "Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" etc.

Furthermore, 3 other planes were hijacked under the same method of operation and crashed on 911, two of which were captured on video in NYC. These planes were never reported to have landed or crashed anywhere else. It's a case of connecting simple dots.



10) A missile crashed into the Pentagon - Not Flight 77

As if it wasn't any easier to connect the 4 plane "dots", truthers nevertheless claim that Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon simply because there was no clear video footage of the event. Truthers love to latch on to any bubble they can find.

Keep in mind that in New York City, the most crowded city in the world, only one camera happened to capture the first crash (Flight 11). Therefore it's not surprising that there is no clear video footage in Washington DC.

And so in the absence of irrefutable video evidence, what's the next best thing? Lots of witnesses plus circumstantial, physical and forensic evidence. We have a mountain of that! In fact there were at least 163 documented witnesses to the Flight 77 crash. 136 of them said they saw a plane, 26 said it was an American Airlines jet, 7 said it was a Boeing 757, 39 said large jet / commercial airliner, 2 said commuter plane but didn't mention size, and 1 said a corporate jet. NOBODY said they saw a missile. Nobody.

Truthers have also flat out lied and claimed that there was no plane debris at the scene. This is pure fabrication. Most famously, part of the aluminum fuselage was sheared off when wings of the plane clipped light posts. Furthermore, for a missile to have been fired into the Pentagon it would have to have traveled in an impossible zig zag pattern in order to take out the 5 lamp posts that were sheered by the wings of Flight 77.

DNA from all victims except an infant was recovered from the crash scene. Flight 77 has never been reported to have gone anywhere but into the Pentagon.



11) NORAD allowed Flight 77 to crash into the Pentagon

washington-map.jpg

Truthers will argue that the Pentagon was the "most secure building in the world" and therefore Flight 77 should have been shot down. As far as ground protection, the Pentagon is very secure, but certainly not so much when it comes to air security. In fact Reagan Washington National Airport is located just 3/4 of a mile away from and right in line with the Pentagon! Planes constantly fly over the pentagon! This perfectly illustrates the lack of forethought that goes into these truther conspiracy theories.

As for why North American Aerospace Defense Command did not engage with Flight 77, NORAD didn't actually track flights within America prior to 911. The hijackers also turned off the transponders on the planes, which meant Air Traffic Control couldn't track for certain where the planes were. NORAD needed an alert from Air Traffic Control in order to act. Then what could they have done? Prior to 911, passenger jets had never been used as weapons. The method of operation for hijackers had always been to land planes. The attacks of 911 were completely unprecedented and unexpected.

Furthermore, if a NORAD jet had shot down flight 77, they would have been criticized for murdering all of the passengers. Truthers have already (falsely) accused NORAD of shooting down Flight 93. So NORAD is damned if they do and damned if they don't shoot down the planes.



12) Not hot enough to melt the steel

It is a fact that jet fuel burns at 1,517°F and construction steel melts at around 2800°F. This gives us at least a rough basis for guessing how hot it was inside of the burning towers. Know-nothing truthers quickly hailed this 1,000 degree temperature difference as proof positive that something else (besides the obvious) brought down the world trade center towers.

However the operative word is "melt". Did the trade center structural steel need to melt (zero strength) in order to collapse with all of that dead weight (of 4,500 tons per floor) pushing down from above? Of course not! It is a fact that structural steel begins to soften around only 797°F and loses half its strength at only 1,200°F.



13) Molten Steel

melt.jpg
melt.jpg (25.06 KiB) Viewed 799 times

Truthers point to video of what they claim is molten steel pouring out of the trade center and this they claim is proof that government pre-planted thermite brought down the trade center buildings because jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel.

Once again a logical explanation debunks this crazy assertion. We don't know what kind of metal this was. Truthers conveniently assume that it was steel that was pouring out. In reality this molten metal could have come from other sources such as metal office furniture which melts at a lower temperature than jet fuel. But in all likelihood it was simply aluminum from the approximately 180,000 pound 767 plane, 80% of which is aluminum. Depending on the alloy, aluminum has a melting point of only 887°F to 1184°F, well below the temperature at which jet fuel burns.

Logic dictates that if the steel frame was melting then it was at zero strength. But the building was still standing! With many 450,000 pound floors pushing down from above, this is impossible. Therefore it could not be melted steel.



14) The Hijackers are still alive

Like the Loch Ness Monster and Elvis sightings, these reports are pure fantasy. Where is a single video interview with one of these dead hijackers? There are none. If these guys were really alive this would be a huge news story. Mohammed Atta alone could easily earn a million dollars by doing TV interviews and a reality show. In the Middle East there's enough anti-American sentiment that any and every reporter would want to interview a hijacker.



15) Guys living in caves are incapable of this

These were no cavemen. They were living in the United States. The hijacker pilots went to flight schools. 3 of the 4 had earned their private pilot’s licenses. The 4th hijacker had both a private and commercial license. All of the hijacker pilots were trained in how to use auto pilot and navigational systems. All they would have had to do is plug in GPS coordinates and point the planes in the right direction to hit their targets.

Terrorists are well known for suicide attacks. 911 was no different.

Furthermore if truthers want to argue that the 19 hijackers didn't hijack the planes then who on each flight did? Nobody else on the flights had the training or motives to crash planes into buildings. And since the hijackings were coordinated, truthers would also need to explain how each passenger coordinated with the others from the other flights. It's just beyond absurd to think that it was anyone but the 19.



16) The holes in the Pentagon and WTC were too small. No planes.

With regard to the Pentagon impact, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to that of a liquid than a solid mass.

Both WTC crashes were captured on video, with the 2nd WTC crash captured from many angles, so we already know that this is just the nature of how a plane damages a building. In 1945 a B-52 flew into the empire state Building. The wingspan of a B-52 is 67 feet, yet the impact hole was only 20 feet.

And again, there were at least 163 documented witnesses to the Flight 77 crash. 136 of them said they saw a plane, 26 said it was an American Airlines jet, 7 said it was a Boeing 757, 39 said large jet / commercial airliner, 2 said commuter plane but didn't mention size, and 1 said a corporate jet. NOBODY said they saw a missile. Nobody.

Furthermore it's a matter of connecting simple dots. 4 planes went missing at around the same time on the same day. 4 were reported to have crashed at around the same time on that same day. 2 were captured on video. How hard is it for even a 1st grader to connect the Pentagon "dot"?



17) Passports from Flight 93 crash were planted. No planes.

Passports belonging to Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al-Ghamdi were found at the Flight 93 crash site. Truthers with no background in plane crash investigation claimed that this was impossible. Plane crashes are random. It is not uncommon for small items to survive. Truthers conveniently love to demand an absolute answer, but we can only speculate what exactly happened. Perhaps it was placed inside a coat pocket and packed inside a suitcase.



18) Prior to 911 no building had ever collapsed due to fire

Truthers love making apples to oranges comparisons. Every building is different and every fire is different. Prior to 911 no 110-story WTC-like building had ever been hit by a 767 passenger jet loaded with jet fuel at 470 and 590 MPH. 911 was a first of its kind!

Other steel structures have indeed collapsed due to fire including the Site and Sound Theater, McCormick Place, Kader Toy Factory, Mumbai High North Platform, Interstate 580, World Trade Center 5, Dogwood elementary school, Windsor tower, and the Faculty of Architecture Building.

Some truthers like to cite how the Madrid tower did not collapse due to fire, however unlike the World Trade Center buildings, the Madrid tower was constructed very differently. Its steel beams were surrounded by concrete. Concrete simply makes good insulation. Additional reading.



19) Commercial jets can't fly 500 MPH at low elevation without breaking up

This assertion is debunked by video of the planes crashing in NYC. It's already on video.



20) The US blew itself up in order to justify war

You have to have a motive for a crime on the level of 911. The foundation for the entire truth movement is that the US government blew itself up in order to gain public support to go to war, which is of course absurd. Truthers didn't think this one out.

Since WWII when has the US government ever needed to be attacked and have lots of people die in order to justify war? Lets go down the list... Operation Desert Storm? No. Kosovo? No. Bosnia? No. Panama? No. Korea? No. Vietnam? No. Truthers usually object to the notion the US was not attacked in Vietnam, claiming that the US faked being attacked at the Gulf of Tonkin as part of a "false flag" operation. And this is yet another kooky anti-US government conspiracy lie. In the first Gulf of Tonkin engagement, the US was attacked (not a "false flag"). In the 2nd incident the US was not attacked but it wasn't staged either. Whatever did happen in the Gulf of Tonkin that night was incorrectly perceived by U.S. military personnel as an attack (not a “false flag”). They made a mistake, which is different than staging an attack.

Therefore, since WWII the US has never needed to be attacked in order to gain support to go to war and so the entire truther foundation is flawed at the core.

And if you notice, truthers spend a lot of time discussing motives because it's a red herring distraction away from what really matters -- the fact that truther have absolutely no hard evidence to support their 911 conspiracy.



21) The mainstream media lies /never covers conspiracies

Truthers are always fixated on what they are told, which in and of itself suggests that they can't think for themselves. Truther theories are easily debunked with video proof, circumstantial facts and logic. Video proof, circumstantial facts and logic have absolutely nothing to do with "what we are told". Video proof, circumstantial facts and logic don't lie and aren't biased.

Nevertheless truthers believe that the "mainstream media" lies all the time. The media is biased and the media is sometimes sloppy and hasty, but rarely does the media ever lie about something on this scale. And usually it's a case of not "lying" but distorting the truth. And if and when this happens, like clockwork the offending media outlet become the subject of incessant criticism by other competing networks. Probably the most recent case of a media outlet lying was when an NBC editor over-edited George Zimmerman's 911 call to make him sound racist. In fact the NBC editor was fired and Zimmerman's lawyers have filed a defamation lawsuit against NBC. So the media has great incentive to be sure not to blatantly lie!

But these cases of "yellow journalism" are not even in the same ballpark as this notion of media and government conspiring together as part of a grand conspiracy to blow up the country. This is far beyond even comparing apples oranges. Nazi Germany couldn't pull off something on this scale. Media in the United States is not even government owned.

And if we flip it around, Alex Jones and George Noory only cover one side of the story... The kooky conspiracies. If anyone is biased it's these "alternative news" outlets and then truthers cherry pick what they are told by these outlets.



22) "You're a shill"

(Or "Your a shill". Bad grammar is the norm!)

When truthers are debunked in debate about their absurd 911 conspiracies they resort to ad hominem attacks (a logical fallacy) by calling you a "shill" which essentially means "government disinformation operative".

So let's review... Truthers not only believe that hundreds if not thousands of government conspirators blew up their own country, but now even more operatives are making posts in forums, on YouTube and even on websites like this one (never mind that this website attacks the brokerage and insurance industry). Their belief is that, like something out of the book 1984, anyone who disagrees with them must be a secret government operative. The fact that truthers think that everyone is a government disinformation agent just further demonstrates that truthers are rabid anti-government types. It also demonstrates that truthers are highly influenced by what they are told to believe and can't think logically on their own. Otherwise why would they care if they were debating with John McCain or Edward Snowden? Video, circumstantial facts and logic have absolutely nothing to do with the messenger. Video, circumstantial facts and logic are not opinion! They speak for themselves. Once again truthers never thought this one out.



23) The US government lies all the time

Truthers spend a lot of time making dispositional arguments about "the big bad government" rather than presenting what really matters, namely circumstantial facts and hard evidence about 911. Relying heavily on dispositional arguments is in and of itself is a logical fallacy known as the fundamental attribution error, and a sign of lack of evidence.

Furthermore, for what it's worth, this is an extreme case of comparing apples to oranges. It's one thing for a politician to get in front of a microphone and be evasive and deceptive. Politicians at all levels of government do this all the time. Nobody is arguing that. But planning and carrying out a massive conspiracy involving thousands of operatives is completely different! Such an operation would require massive planning and preparation, the convincing and recruiting of thousands of conspirators, logistics, flawless execution, and then keeping not just the conspirators quiet but keeping the people who took the moral high road and refused to participate quiet. In this day and age nobody can keep quiet about anything without Navy Seal tell-all books, WikiLeaks, Abu Ghraib leaks, Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden, General Petraeus, etc. Yet to this day not one conspirator has ever come forward.

Note: Some truthers falsely claim that Susan Lindauer exposed 911 as a government conspiracy, but in reality all she has done is present the usual arguments. Just like any other truther, she has no hard evidence to support her arguments. Lindauer was also ruled mentally unfit to stand trial. When your all-star "whistleblower" was ruled mentally unfit to stand trial, you are really reaching for straws.

Which leads us to this final question: Why on earth would the Bush administration and the Republican party risk getting caught doing something this horrific without a motive to begin with? ANSWER: They wouldn't. Getting caught doing something this horrific would probably bring down the US government. At the very least it would destroy the Republican party for all eternity. The masterminds would certainly receive death penalties. It's certifiably insane to think that the US government would attack itself.

JohnDoe1964
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:28 pm

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby JohnDoe1964 » 1 month 1 week ago (Mon May 10, 2021 5:33 pm)

5,564 words about 9/11 without once saying "Jew" or "Israel" or "Zionism"?
rarely does the media ever lie about something on this scale

competing networks.

Do you personally ascribe to the views of the article's author?

User avatar
Revision
Member
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:09 pm
Contact:

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby Revision » 1 month 1 week ago (Tue May 11, 2021 4:09 am)

JohnDoe1964 wrote:5,564 words about 9/11 without once saying "Jew" or "Israel" or "Zionism"?
rarely does the media ever lie about something on this scale

competing networks.

Do you personally ascribe to the views of the article's author?


Foreknowledge and letting these things happen is very different thing from doing it yourself.

The name of this article was 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'. The author of this article doesn't quite obviously see the Israeli foreknowledge theory as wrong for example.

The media is biased and the media is sometimes sloppy and hasty, but rarely does the media ever lie about something on this scale. And usually it's a case of not "lying" but distorting the truth. And if and when this happens, like clockwork the offending media outlet become the subject of incessant criticism by other competing networks.
But these cases of "yellow journalism" are not even in the same ballpark as this notion of media and government conspiring together as part of a grand conspiracy to blow up the country.
I agree with this.

The media is not in some "evil conspiracy to suppress the truth from us". FOX News and ABC News have touched on the Israel connection for example:
https://archive.org/details/Carl-Camero ... --mp4-x0uq
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1

JohnDoe1964
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:28 pm

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby JohnDoe1964 » 1 month 1 week ago (Tue May 11, 2021 1:06 pm)

I agree, and I do think it's a good article after having read the whole thing. Personally, I've never found such lines of argument completely convincing either way (physics, scale of conspiracy required, etc.).

The one thing that finally convinced me was Osama's letter explaining why he did it. It makes too much sense, but strangely, almost never comes up in such arguments.

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby Turpitz » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 12, 2021 6:02 am)

All old stuff that has been taken apart many times over the years. Science is not on your side, very much like The Industry. But that will not stop the dumb-Goy going along with it as they do with most things that are detrimental to them, as history has shown time and time again.

The building didn't 'collapse' they were ripped to pieces on the fly and ejected upwards and outward. There is not a single photo or film of stacks of floors all piling up onto one another, only massive pyroclastic plumes. Convieniently he has left out the laws of conservation which states: 'that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.'

Totally and utterly impossible for a staitionary object with no kinetic energy to pulverise a larger and stronger object. Utter nonsense that only goes to prove how dumbed down the Goy have become.

Even if you had taken the top floors and lifted them up into the air and dropped them from 100ft onto the remaining structure, it would have bounced off.

Go and try it. Purchase a pallet of concrete blocks, take one out and drop it onto the remaining blocks, it will just bounce off. Even if you took two pallets of concrete blocks and dropped one onto the other, it would still bounce off. Are you so deluded to think a smaller mass of the same substance can fall through a greater mass without any resistance?



The top floors could not crush the undamaged lower floors as they would not have the energy to drive through the undamaged structure below which got progressivly stronger the closer to the ground it got. Why would a 80 ton hollow aluminium tube cause the undamaged structure to turn to dust after thirty years?

These people need to study just how concrete and rebar are used on structures, and why.

The media is not in some "evil conspiracy to suppress the truth from us". FOX News and ABC News have touched on the Israel connection for example:


God help us all!

User avatar
Revision
Member
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:09 pm
Contact:

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby Revision » 1 month 1 week ago (Wed May 12, 2021 9:47 am)

All old stuff that has been taken apart many times over the years.
Do you really believe all of that "truther" stuff described in this article? I highly doubt that you have even read it. Why don't you give some rebuttals that actually touch the arguments of this article?

Go and try it. Purchase a pallet of concrete blocks, take one out and drop it onto the remaining blocks, it will just bounce off. Even if you took two pallets of concrete blocks and dropped one onto the other, it would still bounce off.
I think these high rise buildings are quite different things.


So who exactly "did 9/11" and why? Which people participated in this evil conspiracy? Were there no muslims involved?

JohnDoe1964
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:28 pm

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby JohnDoe1964 » 1 month 1 week ago (Thu May 13, 2021 4:13 pm)

I also agree, by the way, that the footage demonstrates what appears to be controlled demolition, based on my physics knowledge. In fact, I think the footage is overwhelming evidence that they were deliberately blown up, especially WTC7.

But, physics is often counter-intuitive, and again, the Osama letter is what convinced me this was another Pearl Harbor. Not a false flag.

User avatar
Revision
Member
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:09 pm
Contact:

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby Revision » 1 month 1 week ago (Fri May 14, 2021 4:41 am)

I would like to see some counter-arguments that actually touch this article's arguments if there is any.

It's very embarrassing that so many of us still think for example that Larry Silverstein's "pull it" proves something:

Holocaust Lies Exposed: LARRY SILVERSTEIN PULLS BUILDING 7 - ISRAEL DID 9/11:

Basically all of his viewers agree (67 likes, 1 dislike).

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby Turpitz » 1 month 1 week ago (Sat May 15, 2021 5:33 pm)

Do you really believe all of that "truther" stuff described in this article? I highly doubt that you have even read it. Why don't you give some rebuttals that actually touch the arguments of this article?


Don't start your juvenile "Truther" rubbish that the likes of Icke and the rest of them put about so as to tar everyone with the same brush and compromise them by association. Take your childish attemps and play them elswhere. I don't subscribe to "truthers" but science, and science is against you on all all counts.

I think these high rise buildings are quite different things.


A smaller mass cannot destroy, and pass through a larger mass with little or no resistance, end of the story, split hairs all you want, but it ain't going to happen, ever. What is even worse for you is the top section was empty floor space, basically 80% of its area was air, and you want everyone to belive these hollow voids crushed massive, great vertical steel box columns, both welded and bolted together as if they weren't there, and every mechanical joint failed in perfect synchronicty ane caused a near perfect symetrical colapse, including the mighty 90 degree quoins, which failed at exactly the same speed as the building's faces. Never also forget, the building got progressively stronger the further down they went, which causes mighty implications. Not only did the smaller mass pulverise the larger mass, but the weaker mass also pulverised the stronger mass. Thus the smaller, weaker top section turned the larger, stronger sections to microns.

As for your nonsense about the temperature, the Fire Chief, if I remember correctly was a chap called 'Palmer', and the radio transmission from him as he entered the 78th floor stated, and I quote:

"Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."

You would't even be able to heat up a labyrinth of massive steels like these in a blast furnace in fifty minutes, let alione office fires. Any fires that were there were pathetic and that's why the firemen were able to enter the 78th floor. You are not suggesting that the temperature was so intense as to be turning huge steel beams into liquorice, yet the firemen were stood in amongst it?

If any heat had been there, the huge steels would have acted as massive heat sinks and drawn it off and dissapated it, the same way a stove doesn't melt even when full of coal and a draught through it. The same way the combustion in an air- cooled engine is of a far higher temp than the block, but the surrounding metal dissapates the heat away. It is a non sensical notion to think fifty minutes of office fires could create enough heat to compromise these massive beams. There are videos of these carefully diced up beams being ejected upwards with smoking ends.

JohnDoe1964
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:28 pm

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby JohnDoe1964 » 1 month 1 week ago (Sat May 15, 2021 6:59 pm)

Turpitz wrote:A smaller mass cannot destroy, and pass through a larger mass with little or no resistance, end of the story, split hairs all you want, but it ain't going to happen, ever.


What about this piece of lumber which passed through a palm tree during a hurricane?

Image

What about people smashing bricks with their hands in karate?

In both these cases, the lumber and the hand emerge with little or no damage (partially emerge, in the plank's case). Why couldn't the planes?

Turpitz wrote:What is even worse for you is the top section was empty floor space, basically 80% of its area was air


I do not think your line of argument is taking into account certain counter-intuitive aspects of physics involving high speed objects. The hand is 80% water, yet smashes through the brick unscathed, similar to your 80% air jet smashing through the tower. Most people who have never heard of the brick-smashing trick would probably be just as credulous as you are of jets passing through steel towers.

Turpitz wrote:Never also forget, the building got progressively stronger the further down they went, which causes mighty implications.


I can't explain this either without resorting to some sort of secret bomb hypothesis. Actually WTC7 is the best example of this.

User avatar
Revision
Member
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:09 pm
Contact:

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby Revision » 1 month 1 week ago (Sun May 16, 2021 6:02 am)

A smaller mass cannot destroy, and pass through a larger mass with little or no resistance, end of the story, split hairs all you want, but it ain't going to happen, ever.
What do you even mean? What is the "larger mass"? How the mass of the upper parts could know anything about some "mass" of the lower parts? The only important thing is basically the resistance of the next floor below. The mass of the upper part also increases in a collapse like in an avalanche.



towers.jpg
The South Tower (WTC-2) was hit lower than the North Tower (WTC-1), and it collapsed sooner, 56 minutes after the plane crashed into it, compared to the North Tower that stood for 1 hour and 43 minutes after it was struck. South Tower's collapse was also faster, it collapsed in around 15 second compared to the 22 seconds of the North Tower collapse.


Here are some pictures that describe the basic structures and interiors of the WTC towers:

sun.png
^(1972)

construction.jpg
inside.jpg
inside2.jpg
These buildings were quite hollow things.




The core stood little longer time than the surrounding parts, as one would expect.

core-2.jpg
core.jpg



User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2883
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: 'Debunking the Most Desperate and Absurd Truther Lies about 9/11'

Postby borjastick » 1 month 2 days ago (Sat May 22, 2021 5:47 am)

It was the melted aluminum that did it. Simple as that.

Those who see a conspiracy and won't believe the simple truth do so because they want a conspiracy.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


Return to “The 9/11 Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests