A different look at Babi Yar

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Mark_Twain
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A different look at Babi Yar

Postby Mark_Twain » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:05 pm)

Estimates run from 100,000, up to 300,000 Jews shot


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Very interesting website on Babi Yar

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PLAYWRIGHT
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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:02 pm)

Researching Babi Yar is difficult - the information has so many contradictions.

Notice on this page – allegedly executions on Skedje Beach in Latvia, and in Mizocs and Lubny in the Ukraine

http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/shoah/towns.html

Some of those exact same pictures are on this site, and are claimed to be of Babi Yar. Which is it? These are nasty atrocity pictures, but are they just recycled from one claimed massacre to the next?

http://www.tfn.net/holocaust/online/yarbabi.html

Also, on the second site, note pictures two and three, with all the people marching through the streets. The length of the shadows – about a foot taller than the people – shows that the pics were taken at the same time of day, with the sun at a low angle. In picture two, the shadows are to their right. In picture three, to their left. These people were marching in opposite directions? AND – where are the guards?

The picture with all the naked women in a pile, and the guy in the military hat shooting the woman who’s trying to get up off the ground. Why are all the women about the same age? Where are the children, and the old women? AND – while the resolution isn’t very good, why don’t the bodies show any signs of trauma? Supposedly, they used machine guns.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:16 am)

The photos are a joke. Take away the captions, which could be added by anyone to say anything they wished, and you have nothing.

I even see some photos that Udo Wallendy has debunked in 'Dissecting the Holocaust' here:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/found.html

People getting on trains does not prove murder.

Groups of people do not mean they were murdered.

German soldiers standing around an orthodox Jew does not prove murder.

Bodies do not mean they were victims of the Germans, they could just as easily been victims of the judeo-bolshevik communists intentionally miscaptioned.

And why would the German military have allowed such pictures of these alleged operations in the first place? They wouldn't ... if the tales were true.

There's plenty at this forum which exposes the fraudulence of such photos.

examples here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=476
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1251

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Speeder » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:15 am)

This appears to be nothing more than the usual recycling of the few photos they have making each photo go as far as possible. I suspect even the event which the photo was stated to depict when it was first used does not show whatever it was claimed to show.

This is a common occurrence and does not help their case, I started a thread a few weeks ago highlighting how the same photos but with different captions were showing up on different websites. Either it shows that resurrection is possible as the dates and locations move showing the individuals shown in the picture were alive months or years later at a different location but weirdly undergoing a "Ground Hog day" type of repetition of their fate

Far from helping the case to prove it happened as they state it only serves to raise doubts in any reasonably minded viewer who comes across the same picture over and over again when the photo appears with different captions in different places.

Indeed some of the photos linked above appear in books with yet different locations and explanations attached to them.

It would be interesting to see who can find the photo that has been used the most with different contradictory captions.

A genuine mistake or moral bankruptcy on the part of those that perpetuate the hoax?

I will let you decide.

regards

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Postby Mark_Twain » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:44 pm)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:Researching Babi Yar is difficult - the information has so many contradictions.

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It's a simple story - Germans take Kiev, partisans bomb German headquarters, so the SS marches 33,771 jews to a field and shot them. Over the next two yrs they shoot another 267,231 (total 300,000)

Now it's when you ask for witnesses, or bodies, or SS orders, bones, newspaper clippings from the era, where the Jews came from, etc ~ That's when it gets confusing.

Your key witness is Dina Provenchina - she was buried alive under 10' of dirt and bodies. G_d gave her the strength to dig her way out.




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grenadier
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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:25 pm)

Mark wrote:
Your key witness is Dina Provenchina - she was buried alive under 10' of dirt and bodies. G_d gave her the strength to dig her way out


She was the only one the soviets allowed to testify abroad. Had Dina Pronitscheva been cross-examined as in a real trial, a defense attorney would have made minced meat out of her. Her testimony(in fact what parts were made available) is full of inconsistencies. The above by Mark is just one of them.
A few others:
# She was a Kyiv resident but gave incorrect street names.
# her description of the weather during the massacre is entirely wrong.
# She mentions "tank riders" taking part in the massacre. ????
# She understood german at Babi Yar but could not understand a word of it at the Darmstadt trial.
# she claimed she had retained her union card and id after she had already been forced to strip naked.

The Babi Yar story is a joke, never happened. I almost hate myself for having believed this bullshit for so long.

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Postby simon1003 » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:32 am)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:The picture with all the naked women in a pile, and the guy in the military hat shooting the woman who’s trying to get up off the ground. Why are all the women about the same age? Where are the children, and the old women? AND – while the resolution isn’t very good, why don’t the bodies show any signs of trauma? Supposedly, they used machine guns.


The uniforms of the 'shooters' is also a giveaway, definitely not German, the hats look like those worn by Soviet Commissars.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:57 am)

simon1003 wrote:The uniforms of the 'shooters' is also a giveaway, definitely not German, the hats look like those worn by Soviet Commissars.


I have thought the same thing about that photo. The uniform could easily be red army. I'd like to see what an expert has to say about the uniforms and weapons in that photo.

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Postby Mark_Twain » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:22 am)

grenadier wrote:
The Babi Yar story is a joke, never happened. I almost hate myself for having believed this bullshit for so long.



Harsh words Mr Grenadier .... Do you doubt this story by a jewish witness?

Since I am not a historian, rather than discuss history I tell stories. And here is one, just one: it takes place in September 1941 in Babi-Yar, in Kiev, as reported by an eyewitness, a certain B.A. Liebmann.

He tells of a Jewish family which has spent several days hiding in a cave. The mother decides to seek help in a nearby village with her two small children. They are intercepted by a group of drunken Germans who, in front of the mother, behead one child, then the second. As the distraught mother clutches the bodies of her dead children, the Germans, obviously delighted with the spectacle, kill the mother as well. And when the father appears on the scene, they murder him too.


source

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Postby Ratatosk » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:32 pm)

Harsh words Mr Grenadier .... Do you doubt this story by a jewish witness?

Since I am not a historian, rather than discuss history I tell stories. And here is one, just one: it takes place in September 1941 in Babi-Yar, in Kiev, as reported by an eyewitness, a certain B.A. Liebmann.

He tells of a Jewish family which has spent several days hiding in a cave. The mother decides to seek help in a nearby village with her two small children. They are intercepted by a group of drunken Germans who, in front of the mother, behead one child, then the second. As the distraught mother clutches the bodies of her dead children, the Germans, obviously delighted with the spectacle, kill the mother as well. And when the father appears on the scene, they murder him too.


You seem to be in great need of harsh words. Your quote is from a speech given by Elie Wiesel in the Bundestag. Elie is a bad joke, no intelligent person takes him seriously anymore.
How anyone can believe in this BS is beyond me.

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Postby Mark_Twain » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:37 pm)

Image

Babi Yar website


How anyone can believe in this BS is beyond me.


I believed that 7 yr old Misha DeFonsca ran 3000 miles with a pack of wolves in 1942, and that 9 yr old Bernie Holstein dug a tunnel out of Auschwitz, and lived with wolves. I believe that Mengele sewed kids together to make Siamese Twins.

The story of Hoess having his guards throw jewish babies in the air, so he could perfect his skeet shooting, seems plausiable.

But Babi Yar is too much for me. 300,000 Jews killed in a lot, in the middle of Kiev, and there are no witnesses (except Dina Provichia who was shot, raped, and then had the ravine wall dynamited on her ), no bones, no news paper clippings, no soil disturbances, no German written orders, and in Sept 43 the Russians were at the outskirts of Keiv.

This is a little tough to believe


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