Jewish deaths under Stalin

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
bridgebuilder
Member
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:22 am
Location: Australia

Jewish deaths under Stalin

Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:29 am)

The Autobiography of the Polish/American/Jewish Mathematician Mark Kac is entitled "Enigmas of Chance". (Harper and Row, New York 1985.) On page 46, he recalls departing for the U.S. in 1938 and continues:

"In less than a year the world exploded and much of my part of it was consumed by flames. Millions, including my parents and my brother, were murdered by the Germans and many disappeared without a trace in the vastness of the Soviet Union."

That millions were murdered by the Germans, is, of course, disputed by revisionists. That "many disappeared without a trace" in the Soviet Union, however, ought not surprise anyone. Stalin, before his death, set in train the "doctors' plot" and had the Gulag extended to receive Jews with the intended official explanation that the camps were to protect the deported Jews from a citizenry outraged over the doctors' plot. Stalin's purges were never minor and the Ukraine alone equalled in deaths from starvation the entire claimed total of the Holocaust. A Stalin sanctioned purge of Jews would have been stupendous in magnitude. His death, as it happened, intervened.

Now we know from Menachem Begin's "White Nights" that there were very large numbers of Jews in the Gulag. Is it at all possible that Stalin had a sort of "doctors' plot trial run" in secret, before his death? That is, just as Soviet prisoners in German captivity were transferred to the Gulag after liberation (if that is the word), is it all possible that large numbers of captive Jews were likewise transferred and then murdered? If such a scenario is possible then Jews who attribute huge numbers of deaths to Hitler would be right about the numbers, but wrong about the executioner. And placing the blame on the Nazis would satisfy Stalin's penchant for intrigue. We know from Katyn alone that the Soviets did conduct mass murder. So here is the hypothesis: Jews were murdered and in massive numbers, not by Hitler, but by Stalin. Any takers?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9871
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:03 pm)

We know that the Soviets moved vast numbers of Jews into the Soviet interior during the war, and yet those Jews are alleged to have been murdered by the Germans, they are absurdly claimed to be 'holocau$t' victims. Yet I have seen no solid evidence that they were murdered by the Soviets.

Without knowing Menachem Begin's source I'm necessarily sceptical. Anything claimed by that lying, murdering Zionist terrorist must be verified to be accepted. No doubt there were some Jews in the gulag system, but how many and why are open questions.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

al_aks
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Russia

Postby al_aks » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:25 pm)

That is a traditional Jewish fantasy.

He (Mathematician Mark Kac) forgot to say that main part of these Jews stayed in Estonia, Latvia and had been transported to Japan, China.

So you need to say that "millions" of [phantom] jews were killed in Japan, China, on the Moon etc.....



bridgebuilder wrote:The Autobiography of the Polish/American/Jewish Mathematician Mark Kac is entitled "Enigmas of Chance". (Harper and Row, New York 1985.) On page 46, he recalls departing for the U.S. in 1938 and continues:

"In less than a year the world exploded and much of my part of it was consumed by flames. Millions, including my parents and my brother, were murdered by the Germans and many disappeared without a trace in the vastness of the Soviet Union."

That millions were murdered by the Germans, is, of course, disputed by revisionists. That "many disappeared without a trace" in the Soviet Union, however, ought not surprise anyone. Stalin, before his death, set in train the "doctors' plot" and had the Gulag extended to receive Jews with the intended official explanation that the camps were to protect the deported Jews from a citizenry outraged over the doctors' plot. Stalin's purges were never minor and the Ukraine alone equalled in deaths from starvation the entire claimed total of the Holocaust. A Stalin sanctioned purge of Jews would have been stupendous in magnitude. His death, as it happened, intervened.

Now we know from Menachem Begin's "White Nights" that there were very large numbers of Jews in the Gulag. Is it at all possible that Stalin had a sort of "doctors' plot trial run" in secret, before his death? That is, just as Soviet prisoners in German captivity were transferred to the Gulag after liberation (if that is the word), is it all possible that large numbers of captive Jews were likewise transferred and then murdered? If such a scenario is possible then Jews who attribute huge numbers of deaths to Hitler would be right about the numbers, but wrong about the executioner. And placing the blame on the Nazis would satisfy Stalin's penchant for intrigue. We know from Katyn alone that the Soviets did conduct mass murder. So here is the hypothesis: Jews were murdered and in massive numbers, not by Hitler, but by Stalin. Any takers?
al_aks

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:37 pm)

Millions, including my parents and my brother, were murdered by the Germans and many disappeared without a trace in the vastness of the Soviet Union."


I think there was a path going from Poland to the Soviet Union and then to the Soviet Union to Israel in the late 40's.

It's remarkable how many of them changed their names at some point too.

Suppose you knew someone named Yitzhak Rudnicki in Poland, and you searched for him in Israel after the war. He wouldn't be there, for he changed his name to Yitzhak Arad, the holocaust historian.

You wouldn't have found Rudolf Reder after the war, because eventhough he was past 60 years of age, he changed his name to Roman Robak

source: Robin O'Neil
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel100.html

And suppose you were looking for your friend Elias Rosenberg after the war in Poland or Israel. You wouldn't find him. He was now Eliyahu Rosenberg.
Source: Carlo Mattogno, Belzec, page 76.
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Goethe
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:41 am

Postby Goethe » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:00 pm)

It's remarkable how many of them changed their names at some point too.

Yes, and the previous name would be considered a "holocaust victim".
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

TMoran
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:00 pm

Postby TMoran » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:13 pm)

Bridgebuilder said:
Now we know from Menachem Begin's "White Nights" that there were very large numbers of Jews in the Gulag.


Anything like that by Begin would be for the intent to try and neutralize the real facts that Jews made up a lot of the Bolsheviks. 'Oh no, there weren't any Jews involved with Stalin, lots of them were sent off to the Gulag.'

bridgebuilder
Member
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:22 am
Location: Australia

Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:11 pm)

That Jews were fundamentally involved in the Bolshevik Revolution is a given. The mystery, however, is that Jews did not REMAIN in control of the Soviet Union. Kevin MacDonald has written in his recent review of Yuri Slezkine's book "The Jewish Century" (See http://www.vdare.com/misc/051105_macdonald_stalin.htm) that:

"After World War II, in a process which remains somewhat obscure, the Russian majority began taking back their country. One method was “massive affirmative action” aimed at giving greater representation to underrepresented ethnic groups. Jews became targets of suspicion because of their ethnic status. They were barred from some elite institutions, and had their opportunities for advancement limited. Overt anti-Semitism was encouraged by the more covert official variety apparent in the limits on Jewish advancement."

Whatever happened, and how it happened, the breaking of Jewish power by Stalin is one of the very great mysteries of twentieth century history. It is, naturally, not even considered as an issue by our academic historians, yet it is THE great and enduring historical puzzle of our times. Stalin's modus operandi ALWAYS involved mass killing. I mentioned Menachem Begin in the first post and was criticised for using him as a source on Jewish captives in the Gulag, but there are many other sources supporting what he said, including Solzhenytsin. (For those not averse to reading Jewish authors, I also mention Evgeniya Ginzberg's "Into the Whirlwind" and Eleanora Tripper's book on the Kolyma death camps that Robert Conquest make use of in his book on the same subject.) Jews did make possible the Bolshevik Revolution and formed its commanding intelligentsia, yes, (including the horrific internal security agencies) but Stalin outmanouevred them all. That Jews were sent to the Gulag is an historical certainty.

The Jews who escaped the Reich to Shanghai etc, even were their numbers in the hundreds of thousands, do not even begin to approach the numbers claimed of the Holocaust. The revisionist response is to claim that the official numbers are simply preposterous and that there is no physical evidence of such colossal exterminations on German-controlled soil. Unlike many revisionists, however, I believe my many Jewish friends when they name relatives lost in the period 1939-45. There are very few Jewish families worldwide who do not claim to have lost a nameable loved one whose death they attribute to 1941-45. Now one line to take here (as some on this website evidently do) is that they are lying rogues. If one charitably takes the view that what they say is to be taken at face value, however (as I do) and also takes the revisionist critique seriously (as I also do) then the deaths had to have occurred elsewhere than under the Nazis. The Soviet Union is the ONLY possible alternative and the deaths could have occurred post-1945.

No doubt many Soviet Jews did end up in Israel under different names, but the numbers can't even begin to fit the claimed casualties. (And on Soviet readiness to pass Jews on to Israel, we should not forget that the "Struma" was torpedoed by a Soviet submarine so as to blame the tragedy on the British.) Stalin wasn't really that helpful at all. If there really were the colossal numbers of Jewish victims claimed and the Germans were not responsible for these massive Jewish deaths, then the ONLY alternative hypothesis, seems to me to be the man with the moustache in the Kremlin. He demonstrably was a mass-murderer, with the excavated bodies to prove it and a genius at accusing others of crimes he perpetrated himself. Here is my bet, gentlemen: sceptical revisionists who ask "Where are the bodies" will one day be saddened to find that there are not only gentile skeletons in the huge Russian mass-graves.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9871
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:00 pm)

bridgebuilder,

I can appreciate your opinion & conjecture, but evidence must be assembled for it to become more than just opinion & conjecture.

Revisionist have covered the 'where did they go' canard rather well. There are a number of threads here which deal with that, I suggest you read them.

As much as I loathe communism, I cannot support an assertion that the Soviets somehow 'exterminated' Jews without the same substance that I require for the debunked notion that Germans 'exterminated' Jews. Having said that, I'm quite sure that the early dominance of Soviet communism by supremacist Jews did indeed create resentment by some which led to a settling of some accounts.

Just saying that Zionists later mentioned Jews in gulags doesn't quite cut it for me when were talking about allegations of millions. Just saying that many Jews claim family members as murdered without evidence just doesn't cut it for me; especially when financial gain, social preferences, political power, and claims of ethnic superiority are the rewards. People claim many things, that doesn't make it true.

Were some Jews purged from Stalin's ranks? No doubt. Were some Jew sent to gulags? No doubt. But as I mentioned before "how many and why are open questions." I encourage you to pursue your position.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

al_aks
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Russia

Postby al_aks » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:10 pm)

Hello, Hannover



Were some Jews purged from Stalin's ranks? No doubt. Were some Jew sent to gulags? No doubt.
But as I mentioned before "how many and why are open questions." I encourage you to pursue your position.



Hannover, if you want to have a nice reading and DISCOVER SCANDALOS DETAILS assosiated with
jews and Gulag ( as a spesfic social "tool" to dump nonloyal citizens ( of russian gender ) ),
if you want to find out how many Gulag's "chifs" were jewish .... I recommend you to download
compleate edition of last Soljenitsyn book ( "200 years together" ( russian and jews )).

( whole book edition Russian ) - http://libereya.ru/biblus/200/

OR download and read chapter 20 ( Gulag and Jews )

http://libereya.ru/biblus/200/20.htm

Thank you.

al_aks.
al_aks

TMoran
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:00 pm

Postby TMoran » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:28 pm)

Bridgebuilder said among other things:
... Unlike many revisionists, however, I believe my many Jewish friends when they name relatives lost in the period 1939-45. There are very few Jewish families worldwide who do not claim to have lost a nameable loved one whose death they attribute to 1941-45. ...

No doubt many Soviet Jews did end up in Israel under different names, but the numbers can't even begin to fit the claimed casualties. ...


I have seen on many occasions Jews claiming extraordinary numbers of relatives lost. Anything from 35 to 120. Even on guy on alt.revisionism saying 1200. At one time I called a person on his claim he lost 120 relatives just on his mother's side. Of course he got himself in a snit and tried to bluff his way out of it by acting indignent anyone would ask. I even ask him to just prove 10% of it.

There are some 3,000,000 names on a Yad Vashem list of alleged Holocaust victims. Of course no one will require the Jewish institution prove it. Anyone can just fill out a form and send in names. Somewhere along the line there are still 3,000,000 names missing. Maybe you should tell your friends to send in the names they have.

The fact is, if the Holocaust is a fraud then, for the most part, those 6,000,000 alleged victims never were in the first place. If the Holocaust is a fraud then for the most part anyone claiming relatives were lost would be lying for the most part.

There's no way of proving whether any particular Jew is lying but one can make an awfully big case against the credibility of the Holocaust and with that so goes all the extraordinary numbers.

bridgebuilder
Member
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:22 am
Location: Australia

Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:45 pm)

I agree that the case is made that there were not 6,000,000 Jewish victims exterminated in camps on German-controlled territory. From here, two lines are possible. First that the whole thing is a fraud and Jews are in the main lying. This appears to me to be the consensus on this website. The other possible line is that there really are massive numbers of missing Jews, but that unlikely as it might seem, they died elsewhere.

We do know that captured Red Army soldiers were not allowed to return home in 1945, but were transported en masse to the Gulag with ten year sentences in a system that claimed 10% casualty figures every year. If Stalin ordered this for his own soldiers, it requires no effort of the imagination to suppose that something similar might have occurred to Jews in the camps, particularly given that we know he planned a pogrom just before his death anyway. If this is a genuine possibility, then some Jews that are believed to have been gassed in the period 1942-5 might in fact have still been being worked to death in the Soviet Union as late as 1955. (Certainly, besides their own Red Army unfortunates, the Soviets did the same to captured German soldiers. I understand that something like only 5% of the army captured at Stalingrad ever saw their native Germany again.)

Now Hannover is quite right that "evidence must be assembled for it to become more than just opinion & conjecture", but it seems to me to be a reasonable conjecture and one that might reconcile the Jewish certainty that huge numbers of Jews are missing with the patent evidence of revisionism that such numbers could not have been eliminated by the Germans. (Let me also parenthetically thank Hannover here for his kind comments on my post).

On TMoran's points, of COURSE they are correct if the Holocaust is a fraud. What I am raising is the possibility that it is not a fraud at all, but that the Germans, for all their anti-Semitism, aren't in fact the guilty party. If the thesis is correct, details would be hidden in the Russian archives, so we might hope they could emerge eventually. It might also be possible for a clever statistician to work with evidence of Holocaust memoirs. Memoirs of Red Army officers have been written by a certain percentage of Red Army veterans. Other things being equal (and while they are not, it is the job of a statistician to account for the differences mathematically) one might arrive at numerical conclusions by comparing these to the number of memoirs by Jewish survivors of German camps still alive in Russia. THe suggestion is therefore not a hopeless flight of fancy, but one for which evidence might be assembled. Naturally, not being a statistician, I don't have the evidence, but what I am raising is the possibility of a revisionist research program that might go some way towards arriving at the historical truth, if, what I am suggesting is indeed a possibility.

It might indeed be that Jews are in the main liars, but my own experience is that they genuinely believe they have murdered relatives. If my thesis turned out to be true, then both TMoran and Jews could exchange reconciled apologies to each other.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9871
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:01 pm)

It might indeed be that Jews are in the main liars, but my own experience is that they genuinely believe they have murdered relatives.

Yes, and UFO 'abductees' genuinely believe they were abducted and people genuinely believed/believe in witchcraft & sorcery.
Years of conditioning, religious superstition, wishful thinking, and the attraction of great reward does wonders to one's 'beliefs'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Barrington James
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:26 pm

Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:18 pm)

Jews in the Gulags? Of course. It is an amazing fact that Jews are taught to think from a very early age by debating the Talmud. Many have made valuable contributions to medicine, Hollywood, law, literature and so on. Consequently in most fields of human endeavour you will find a thinking Jew on one side or the other of the issue. For every Ethel and Julius Rosenberg there is a Henry Kissinger; for every Alan Dershowitz there is a Norm Finkelstein. They were also inside and outside of the Gulags. They created the Gulags, ran the Gulags and, no doubt, some were prisoners of the Gulags. Read Solshennitsyn.

According to Michael A Hoffman, the Jews Matvei Bergman and Naftaly Frenkel invented the Gulag system. He also claims every KGB boss, including Beria, was a Jew. Stalin, who was put in power by the Jewish led communist party, was married to a Jew as were the Soviet leaders Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Andreyev, and I suspect, Andropov, who was a Jew. After WW2 the Jews ran many of the USSR’s satellite countries such as Poland, (Has this anything to do with the holocaust myth?), Romania, Hungary and they supported the creation of Israel. They also ran many of the concentration camps for German Nationals in Central and Eastern Europe after WW2. ( read John Sack’s “ An Eye for an eye”.) Therefore I believe it most likely true that some of the millions of Gulag inmates were Jews.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

bridgebuilder
Member
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:22 am
Location: Australia

Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:06 pm)

A couple of corrections first: the Tripper book was "Eleven Years in Soviet prison camps" by Elinor Tripper (Hollis and Carter, London 1951). And Robert Conquest's book is "Kolyma: The Arctic Death Camps" (Oxford University Press, 1978.)

Conquest writes on Kolyma (p.75.):
"Prisoners who were released were, if under fifty and not declared invalids, forbidden to leave Kolyma. So were those over fifty if their skills were urgently needed in the region - that is everyone from engineers to cooks. After the war, there was a special regulation for prisoners of German origin, including Volga Germans, German exiles and even German Jews. They had to sign an application to stay, and almost all were sent to a special community barracks in the remote area of Tyenki."

Though Conquest provides no numeric break-up of his particular data here, he elsewhere uses Lloyd's register shipping figures to arrive at a minimum estimate of Kolyma deaths as 3,000,000. And Kolyma, of course, was only one of very many Gulag regions. The vast majority of Kolyma deaths would have been Russian, but there were clearly Jews, as we see above and I stress they were "German Jews" and they were there "AFTER THE WAR". Conquest's chapter nine, "The Death Roll" (p.214) even begins with the words "Cold Auschwitzes of the North ..." from a poem of Yuri Galanskov, who died in 1972 under forced labour. We have the names of 106 Kolyma camps (Conquest, p.214) and can estimate their total at about 140. What we know of them is from prisoner testimony, but from many of the Arctic camps, such as those on Novaya Zemlya, not a single prisoner returned.

Conquest tells us that the number of prisoners in the labour camp system after the war was double the number in 1940. And the treatment of Polish prisoners (presumably some of whom were Jews) was horrific. Here is Conquest: (pp.218-220):

"After the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland in October 1939, about 1,060,000 Poles were sent to prisoner-of-war camps, 'forced settlement', or - about 440,000 of them - to labour camps. About 270,000 died in the period up to the release of the survivors two to two and a half years later. Leaving aside special operations against prisoners of war, such as the Katyn massacre, the great majority of these casualties appear to have taken place among the 440,000 who were sent to labour camps. Which is to say, as a general estimate, that about half of these died. This ratio is, of course, for the whole labour camp system throughout the Soviet Union, most of which did not equal the lethal effects of Kolyma. In Kolyma, therefore, we can certainly assume a higher death rate. And we are in fact told that no Poles at all returned of 3000 sent to the Chukhotsk camps. And in a less extreme area, one notes of Maldyak, 'In the first two and a half months ... out of the total of 20 Poles in my group, 16 died. Four, including myself, survived.' At Komsomolets, there were 46 survivors out of 436. By September 1941, 60 per cent of those held in the rather less rigorous camps on the Kolyma River had died.

In all, of 10,000-12,000 Poles sent to Kolyma in 1940 and 1941, 583 survived to return under the amnesty, between October 1941 and July 1942. Even on the best assumptions, this must give a figure of some 75-80 per cent dead per annum."

Conquest goes on to discuss "katorga" and the treatment of Ukrainian nationalists, but it is only a more harrowing version of the above. The points are that the Soviet labour system was more than capable of eliminating prisoners in their tens of millions, that it DID eliminate prisoners in their tens of millions and that some of the post-War inmates were Jews.

The problem is that if my hypothesis is correct, Jewish deaths in the Holocaust were due not to the Germans, but to us - the allies, courtesy of Josef Stalin sending Jews to camps designed by Fraenkel and Bermann. That Stalin had Jews worked to death in camps is a certainty. The only issue that matters now is the numbers.

bridgebuilder
Member
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:22 am
Location: Australia

Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:19 am)

A second correction: I wrote "Tripper" when it should have been "Lipper". Thus the book was:

"Eleven Years in Soviet prison camps" by Elinor Lipper (Hollis and Carter, London 1951).


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hektor, MSN [Bot] and 11 guests