One Great Thing Irving Has Likely Done

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Carto's Cutlass Supreme
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One Great Thing Irving Has Likely Done

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:28 pm)

I think he's put an end to any new holocaust denial legislation coming into effect. Italy, Denmark, Sweden, England were all potential candidates, right there on the border of the issue, and without this recent Irving uproar, they could have quietly passed legislation, just as Romania did a few months ago.

There's enough harrassment groups to still keep it very taboo even in countries where it's not illegal. But still the government legality is a big issue.

Looking at it from just the narrow perspective of public opinion and new denial laws. Irving's case was better than any of the "real" revisionists.

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Postby Vilho » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:27 pm)

Irving has given us a LOT of attention. Even though most people think revisionism "doesn't make any sense", a lot of them think his imprisonment was unfair. "Any publicity is good publicity". All the best for Irving though.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:10 pm)

Vilho:
Irving has given us a LOT of attention. Even though most people think revisionism "doesn't make any sense", a lot of them think his imprisonment was unfair.


If anything, Holocaust revision does make sense. Like you would find in a defense case at an American trial for murder.

You have some kind of documentation 'most' people think Holocaust revisionism doesn't 'make sense'?

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:49 pm)

I think Vilho's right. The lie is so big, that people just assume that deniers are like the "Flat Earth Society." They'll never check into it. Sad as that is.

On Arthur Butz's website he mentions a guy who had been a president of two universities, who wrote a book that had a chapter on Butz, and this guy said Butz thought "that six million Jews either suffered an epidemic or took their own lives during the late 1930s and early 1940s." In other words, the guy was so sure Butz was wrong, he never checked into it.

http://pubweb.northwestern.edu/~abutz/dnews/oneil1.html

But even for Irving to galvanize an attitude to allow free speech, helps us. Because Sweden, Denmark and other countries had the possibility to pass laws. And I don't think that will happen now.

It was the perfect case to make the middle class remember something called "free speech."

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:49 am)

Vilho:
Irving has given us a LOT of attention. Even though most people think revisionism "doesn't make any sense", a lot of them think his imprisonment was unfair.


I said:
If anything, Holocaust revision does make sense. Like you would find in a defense case at an American trial for murder.

You have some kind of documentation 'most' people think Holocaust revisionism doesn't 'make sense'?


Carto's Cutlass Supreme:
I think Vilho's right. The lie is so big, that people just assume that deniers are like the "Flat Earth Society." They'll never check into it. Sad as that is.


Not checking into Holocaust revisionist works is one thing and checking into it and not making sense of it is another. Two totally contradicting things. If one doesn't check into it then how would one know it makes sense or not?

As for the example about Butz's comments on a college president writing a chapter on Butz? If that's all he did and didn't address the points then the college president must have wrote his chapter for some other reason and not that he couldn't make sense out of revisionism.

If the writer was Jewish then we would have that reason, and if he isn't Jewish then it would be to show his loyalty. College professors in general will do anything to solidify their positions.

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Postby Vilho » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:47 am)

TMoran said:
If anything, Holocaust revision does make sense. Like you would find in a defense case at an American trial for murder.

You have some kind of documentation 'most' people think Holocaust revisionism doesn't 'make sense'?


I'm sorry. I didn't mean that with my message. I meant just what Carlo said:

I think Vilho's right. The lie is so big, that people just assume that deniers are like the "Flat Earth Society." They'll never check into it. Sad as that is.


I've noticed this many times when debating. Many people just can't get in their heads that the "holocaust" just may not have happened the way it's said.

English isn't my grammar and I didn't mean to offend you TMoran. I'm sorry for the confusement.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:32 am)

Vilho:
I've noticed this many times when debating. Many people just can't get in their heads that the "holocaust" just may not have happened the way it's said.

English isn't my grammar and I didn't mean to offend you TMoran. I'm sorry for the confusement.



It's okay Vilho, I didn't take anything personal.

I just had an attitude about the wording 'most' and 'doesn't make sense'.

I'm totally aware of how people react to the notion the Holocaust never happened and why. It's fear. For the average person it's fear of uncertainty. The lie being so big, they smothered with it on a daily basis, the magnitude of its claims, they fear if that could be lie what else is there that I believe in that could be wrong. People will believe in a lot nonsense in order to retain a sense of certainty.

Then there's fear of losing ones social level. Movie stars, college professors and politicians fearing the loss of their lofty social positions.

If the Holocaust controversy was ever subjected to the rules of law and juris prudence in a U.S. Court the prosecution's (Holocaust community's) case wouldn't make it past the Opening Statement phase. The revisionist (defense) position makes total sense under the rules of law, empirical codes and scientific method.

The average Joe could very well read everything revisionist and still come away denying the denial but it wouldn't be because they couldn't make sense of it but because to accept it would torment their minds.

For many, if not the majority, the truth is a terrible thing. The ongoing battle of evolution is a prime example.

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Postby Tank » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:31 pm)

I think the reason that Irving's litigation has possibly stopped future legislation is more negative than positive.

While giving testimony, Irving recanted most of his position on the Holocaust and the bombing of Dresden. By the time he got off the stand, legislation seemed moot.

Tank

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Postby Goethe » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:52 pm)

While giving testimony, Irving recanted most of his position on the Holocaust and the bombing of Dresden. By the time he got off the stand, legislation seemed moot.

It's apparently not clear what Irving's real position is. Playing possum maybe. Or just real politik, 10 yrs vs. 3 yrs.

As has been said here, Germar Rudolf is the real #1 Revisionist. He's the big fish who you will hear little about in the press. He knows what he's talking about. Irving, on the other hand, is relatively uninformed and has been set up as the strawman because of his diletantish efforts.

I do think that the chance of passing anymore laws has been lessened momentarily, due more to the Islam cartoon affair and Iran than Irving.

Oh yes, let's not forget about Zundel. He apparently has tied the German court into knots.
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Postby Tank » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:10 pm)

Dear Goethe,

I'm not certain what you mean by 10 years vs. 3 years. Irving was involved in a civil litigation, which he initiated, so he was not facing jail time. It was also an English court and not German, so while Irving's performance looked foolish, but could not be called criminal.

Still, in reading about the trial and looking at the evidence Irving used, which appears pretty comprehensive based on what I've read here and on other sites, what other evidence could Irving have offered that would have proven his case?

Tank

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:30 pm)

Hi Tank,

We're talking about Vienna, and that was a criminal case. The civil suit case in England some time ago is a whole different thing.

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Postby Goethe » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:31 pm)

OK Tank, you were referring to the Lipstadt ordeal; I believe this thread was referring to his sentencing in Austria and the resultant outcry about free speech. Confusion I suppose. If you want to discuss various points from his case with Lipstadt, then it's probably better to go point by point in individual threads. That seems to be how it is around here.
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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