carbon monoxide

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gretel
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carbon monoxide

Postby gretel » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:37 pm)

Hi,

I have been following alot of revisionist material for awhile now with great interest. I am aware of the success people often have in committing sucide in their garages, and so don't quite understand revisionist refutations of the technique of gassing by exhaust
http://www.deathcamps.org/euthanasia/sonnenstein.html
Could somebody clarify this for me?
Thanks

Secret Anne X
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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:23 pm)

Hi,

The problem is that gasoline engine exhaust wasn't used. That does create enough CO to kill.

According to all accounts (there are no documents) CO gas was created by using diesel engines, which it turns out produce almost no CO.

The same expert who has worked on that, Fritz Berg, has also pointed out that the Germans used trucks operated by what was basically wood-gas, in other words, you used burning wood to generate the gas for combustion. These were called "gaswagens." No one claims anyone was gassed with these, although these created very large amounts of CO.

Finally, in the euthanasia centers you describe, the CO was supposed to have come in bottles or tanks.

If you want to read more you should hunt down Fritz Berg's writings on Diesel exhaust.

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Postby gretel » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:30 pm)

OK thanks Secret, I will look into that.

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:42 pm)

Secret Anne X wrote:If you want to read more you should hunt down Fritz Berg's writings on Diesel exhaust.

Here you go>


http://www.nazigassings.com/

Friedrich Paul Berg's "NaziGassings.com"

More than twenty years of holocaust revisionism can be summarized with the following four words:

Nazi Gassings Never Happened!

LINKS TO COMPLETE ESSAYS:


Diesel Gas Chambers;
Ideal for Torture—Absurd for Murder

:D

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:55 pm)

gretel wrote:Hi,

I have been following alot of revisionist material for awhile now with great interest. I am aware of the success people often have in committing sucide in their garages, and so don't quite understand revisionist refutations of the technique of gassing by exhaust
http://www.deathcamps.org/euthanasia/sonnenstein.html
Could somebody clarify this for me?
Thanks


Well, that article you've got linked is about the T-4 euthanasia program, which was completely legal at the time and had nothing to do with what's known as the Holocaust.

Allegedly, the euthanasia program didn't use engine exhaust, it used bottled carbon monoxide, which then was cheap and fairly easy to get, since it's also an industrial fuel.

There's problems with that story too. Carbon monoxide is flammable and explosive, especially in the pure form coming out of a bottle. Exhaust from a gasoline powered car is, at most, 7 percent CO, these bottles held 100 percent, which makes it dangerous, especially at the outlet point where concentrations are high. One spark, and BOOM! The gas chamber shown in the picture at Sonnerstein Castle doesn't look very well suited to gas executions. At least it's on an upper story - CO has 98 percent of the specific gravity of the atmosphere, so it's slow to rise and dissipate, so you'd want to use a room higher up. But this room is also contiguous with the rest of the building, which leads to the possibility of leaks into other rooms. The walls are not chemically sealed - CO is very reactive, and willl eventually stain stone, brick or concrete. There's also a window in that room, not recommended for gas chambers, and I don't see any forced ventilation system, important for a gas like CO which only barely rises.

Pure CO will, however, kill much, much faster than a garage suicide.

As mentioned, the exhaust allegedly used in gas chambers at Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, and in the ridiculous fable about the mobile Saurer gas vans, were from diesel engines. And you can't kill a laboratory mouse with diesel exhaust, at least not in any reasonable length of time. It just isn't very poisonous, which is why they allow diesel engines in enclosed spaces like coal mines.

Supposedly they used bottled CO at Mauthausen and Majdanek, but what passes for gas chambers there could never have supported executions using a flammable and explosive gas. The travesty shown at Mauthausen - which isn't a gas chamber disguised as a shower, it's an actual, fully functional shower disgused as a gas chamber - is actually two stories below ground. Only a madman would use gas in a subterranean room. It's also connected via stairs with a barracks and a hospital, and vents into a crowded courtyard between the two buildings.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:16 am)

The practice of euthanasia in Germany during the years 1939 to 1941 is to my knowledge not disputed by revisionists. Euthanasia is even today legal in Holland and Belgium.
It is alleged that euthanasia was initially done by gassing of the patients. However no details are known. The present euthanasia gas chamber in the basement of Hadamar is a postwar construction.

Euthansia was done by lethal injection by medically trained personnel.

Prof. Dr. Karl Brandt estimated during the NMT trial the total number of euthanized persons in Germany at 60,000. About 2% of the worst cases of schizophrenia were euthanized. He did not mention anything about gassing of the euthanasia program.

We do not know many details how the alleged euthanasia gassing was done. It seems that bottled carbon monoxide was used. This gas is colorless and odorless. How much of this gas was released for a gassing? How did the persons who performed the euthanasia know that the correct amount was released? What were the safety precautions for the medical staff who performed the gassing? How was the gas removed afterwards and how did they check for gas remnants before entering the gas chamber? How did they know that the euthanasia victim was dead before entering the gas chamber? Just looking through a peeping hole is in my opinion not sufficient to determine whether the victim is clinically dead.

Holocaust hoaxers often like to link the euthanasia program in Germany to the “Final Solution”, i.e. the gassing of Jews with diesel engine exhaust fumes in the so called extermination camps.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:02 am)

Secret Anne X wrote:According to all accounts (there are no documents) CO gas was created by using diesel engines, which it turns out produce almost no CO.


i'm fear this is not correct. if the exterminationist story were true, then according to the most reliable accounts there were benzin engines used at all extermination camps.

See http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... intro.html

Rudolf Reder, the only known survivor of the extermination camp Belzec, carried (according to his own statement made 1944 to the Special Commission for Investigation of German Crimes, first published in Krakow 1946) 4-5 cans of petrol (kanistry benzyny) every day to the motor room of the gas chambers. There the maszyna / motor pedzony benzyna (a motor, run by petrol) was located. His testimony was supported by the Polish electrician Kasimierz Czerniak, who helped to establishing the motor room in 1942; he described a petrol motor of approximately 200 or more PS, from which exhaust fumes were led away over ground pipes (18 Nov 1945). Confusion with a diesel engine is out of the question because diesel fuel is called olej napedowy in Polish.
The theory of a diesel motor in the Belzec gas chambers is based on the testimony of Kurt Gerstein (1945) who had (according to his own statement) not seen the motor but just heard it. Therefore the diesel motor became part (without further references) of the historiography of the death camp.

The case of Sobibor is even more indisputable. In this case even three former Gasmeister (“Gasmasters” / Erich Bauer, Erich Fuchs, and Franz Hödl), who must have really have known the facts, since they all killed with the same motor, confirmed in court that it was definitely a petrol motor. Bauer and Fuchs, having been professional motor mechanics, simply quarrelled during the trial about whether it was a Renault motor or a heavy Russian tank motor (probably a tank motor or a tractor motor) having at least 200 PS. They also disputed whether the method of ignition was a starter or an impact magnet, which diesel motors obviously do not have, being self-igniting (the famous Russian T 34 tank originally had a petrol motor, the diesel version was introduced later, and was rarer).
At all Aktion Reinhard camps diesel engines were used in motor rooms but they were much smaller (testified: 15 PS motors / 220 Volt / 20 Ampere) and were used as generators and for lighting purposes. Perhaps this may have been the source of confusion regarding the real use of the petrol motors.

For the extermination camp Chelmno and the gas vans there the same applies: unquestionably petrol motors.
Walter Burmeister, gas van driver at Chelmno, mentioned mid-heavy Renault lorries with an Otto-Motor. Camp chief Walter Piller described the killing process with “gasses which were produced by petrol motors”. Polish mechanics, who were personally ordered to repair a gas van, precisely described exactly the huge petrol motor and its consumption: “The motor of this car uses 75 litres of petrol per 100 km, that is, twice the consumption of normal motors.”


note that the evidence mentioned here was obtained BEFORE revisionists argued against diesel.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:39 am)

Germania,

You have merely highlighted a huge problem that the 'holocau$t' Industry has, keeping the lies straight. Attempts to switch from the claim of diesel are useless.

examples.:

from the horse's mouth:
'so called 'Anti-Defamation League' claims diesel gassings';
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=643
Responses to common Holocaust-denial claims
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/response.asp#2

Mobile gassing vans, using the exhaust fumes of diesel engines to kill passengers, were used to kill Jews at Chelmno and Treblinka -- as well as other sites, not all of them concentration camps -- starting in November 1941. 18 At least 320,000 Chelmno prisoners, most of them Jews, were killed by this method; a total of 870,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka using gas vans and diesel-powered gas chambers.19

18. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Volume 2, pp. 541-544

19. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Volume 2,, p. 542; Volume 4, pp. 1483, 1486.


Leon Poliakov, who is a French speaking, Jewish 'historian', said:
"there is little to add to this description [the Gerstein statement] which holds good for Treblinka, Sobibor as well as for the Belzec camp. The latter installations were constructed in almost the same way and also used the exhaust carbon monoxide gases from Diesel motors as death agents."

According to Poliakov, more than a million and a half people were killed with Diesel exhaust.
For more on the alleged 'diesel gassings' and why judeo-supremacists would attempt to change their story, see: http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcdiesel.html

As for the laughable Reder, see this example:
'Rudolf Reder: Belzec's one escapee, the one survivor'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2457

See the tinfoil hat 'gas vans' assertions debunked here:

'phoney gas vans / J. McCarthy & 'holocaust' Hist. Proj.'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=73

a real laugher here:
'Gas-van photo ?'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1432

Germania, we have threads aplenty on the so called 'Reinhardt camps' and the absurd gassing claims made about them, jump in. Reders' supposed saying so doesn't make it so. Credible evidence is required.

Of course, the points become irrelevant since there are no mass graves or physical evidence as alleged at the camps. We have threads galore about that too.

The examples of Revisionist debunking of the gassing claims, from any alleged chemical source, are thorough and plentiful.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurdity of the 'holocau$t' story is the message.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:14 am)

[quote="Germania" [/quote]

They also disputed whether the method of ignition was a starter or an impact magnet, which diesel motors obviously do not have, being self-igniting (the famous Russian T 34 tank originally had a petrol motor, the diesel version was introduced later, and was rarer).


That is SO in error. From the beginning, T-34 was powered by the revolutionary 12-cylinder diesel, there was never a "petrol" powered version. In 1941, there were still some gasoline powered tanks in the Red Army, from the BT and SMK series, but diesel was the standard.

For the extermination camp Chelmno and the gas vans there the same applies: unquestionably petrol motors.
Walter Burmeister, gas van driver at Chelmno, mentioned mid-heavy Renault lorries with an Otto-Motor. Camp chief Walter Piller described the killing process with “gasses which were produced by petrol motors”. Polish mechanics, who were personally ordered to repair a gas van, precisely described exactly the huge petrol motor and its consumption: “The motor of this car uses 75 litres of petrol per 100 km, that is, twice the consumption of normal motors.”


By "petrol" I assume they mean gasoline, and where they'd get that for a camp during the wartime shortages is a matter to ponder, much less Renault lorries. Also, the amount of CO produced by a gasoline engiine is irrelevant to it's fuel consumption. It's not how fast you run the engine, it's how hard you CHOKE it, that is, restrict the air supply from the carburator, that determines CO production. As late as 1968, cars in America still had a manual choke, run from a pull switch on the dashboard, all 1940's vehicles had a manual choke. There's no reason why these engines would use twice as much fuel. However, somebody ignorant of how a gasoline engine produces CO might assume that the faster you run it, the more CO you produce, and make that claim for shock value. Actually, when you run a gasoline engine at high revs, you produce LESS CO, since you have to insert more oxygen AND operating temperatures are higher, leading to more complete combustion. The best way to produce CO from a gasoline engine is at idle with a high choke.

AND, that Polish description doesn't come from Chelmno, but from a report on gas vans on the Eastern Front run by the Einstatzgruppen, somebody inserted it into a Chelmno description. That report itself comes from the same Communist archive that describes gas vans in Riga in June of 1941. Riga wasn't captured until July 4 of 1941.

As for benzine engines, World War I fighter planes, and a very few German submarines routinely ran on them, but after the 1920's, they fell into disuse, being smoky and with short running lives. I can't find any reference to them after the 1920's, even for agricultural vehicles.

I notice that the "Last Update" on that site is marked December 17, 2005. Somebody has been attempting to counter revisionist objections by changing their story.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:14 am)

Number of alleged daily victims

The allegations about the numbers of Jews gassed daily in the Treblinka camp border on pure insanity.
Abe Kon: 15,000 to 18,000 every day for two months (GARF = Gosudarstvenni Archiv Rossiiskoi Federatsii [States Archive of the Russian Federation], Moscow)
Stanislaw Kon: 15,000 to 18,000 every day for 13 months (GARF)
Samuel Rajzm in 1944: 24,000 to 28,000 daily (GARF)
Samuel Rajzm in 1946: 20,000 to 25,000 daily (Documenty i Materialy)
Stanislaw Borowy: 12,000 to 18,000 (Lukaszkiewicz: Oboz stracen w Treblince)
Jankiel Wiernik: Between 10,000 to 12,000 daily, up to 20,000 (A Year in Treblinka)

Guards
German staff, numbered between 20 and 30 SS men, held the command and administrative positions in the camp. A Ukrainian company consisting of 90 to 120 men served as camp guards and security personnel. They had the tasks of ensuring that no Jews would escape and
of quashing any attempt at resistance.

These people worked I am sure in 2 to 3 shifts, and I find it hard to believe, that they could take out tens of thousands of Jews a day with exhaust fumes from any type of combustion engine.

Unless of course one accepts the principal of the new Jewish Holocaust religion:

"It happened, therefore it was technically possible. There is not, there cannot be, any debate on the existence of the gas chambers." And if this is not believed, the thought police will come and put you in jail.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:41 am)

I suggest that we do not try even by implication to try to defend the Nazi killing of "defectives" by, say, comparing it with the situation in the Netherlands today. There is no comparison. The Nazi scheme was to get rid of "useless eaters" and "defectives" and was based on eugenic principles, not even misguided emotional sympathies. It was stopped by Hitler as soon as it became known to the German people and resulted in open opposition, particularly from Church leaders. Germany was not a monolithic Nazi machine during the war, the propaganda stories notwithstanding.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:50 am)

Radar wrote:I suggest that we do not try even by implication to try to defend the Nazi killing of "defectives" by, say, comparing it with the situation in the Netherlands today. There is no comparison.
What is the difference between the German and Dutch euthanasia?

The Nazi scheme was to get rid of "useless eaters"
The term “useless eaters” seems to be a creation by Wiesenthal in his book “"Doch die Mörder leben". I cannot find this expression anywhere else.
The motive is obviously absurd, since the death of 60,000 persons will not save much food for a nation of 80 million. Besides, there was no acute food shortage in Germany at that time.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:18 pm)

The reason for the "Euthanasie-Programm" was money.

Image

There was a lot of publicity for the programme.
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:38 pm)

In their desperate attempt to provide a foundation for the gassing of Jews story, the True Believers have even tried making the 'fake showers' claim so that the euthansia subjects supposedly gassed would be fooled. Pretty absurd since they would hardly be cognizant of any impending threat, or physically capable to resist. Like other claims, the euthanasia gassing claims have no basis in fact.

A good thread to see that underneath the verbosity, the Believers have no evidence:
'T4 euthanasia gassing?'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1129

I really don't think money was prime factor, even though I'm sure people were paid for their work. Keeping the gene pool clear of defects was the primary focus, and wisely so.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:19 pm)

Hannover wrote:I really don't think money was prime factor, even though I'm sure people were paid for their work. Keeping the gene pool clear of defects was the primary focus, and wisely so.


For this reason a sterilization programme was set up in the thirties - similar to the programme in the USA that was started even earlier (and even lastet when the war was over). You do not have to kill people to keep the gene pool clear. On the other hand only a small percentage of the insane were killed - the extreme helpless people. You would not expect that this group would have children whilest the less insane poeople would have not.

There is a lot of propaganda for the euthanasy programme that reflects on the costs for these extreme insane people.
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