Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leuchter

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Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leuchter

Postby FREE ZUNDEL NOW » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:06 am)

This video features some interesting footage from the Zundel Trial and from Fred's expedition to Auschwitz which starts at around the 29.5 minute mark.

Fred showed guts traveling to communist Poland during the mid eighties, his forensic examination performed under difficult conditions was remarkable. I believe Germar Rudolf has since been able to shore up any of the short comings pointed out by Leuchter's critics. If you were ever curious about this video, you can watch it in full at the link below:



Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall
of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. (1999)

Image February 07, 2004

Mr. Death : The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. is another documentary by the noted documentarian, Errol Morris, who did other well-known factual films like The Thin Blue Line and, recently, The Fog of War, an interview with Robert S. McNamara.

Mr. Death focuses on Fred Leuchter, Jr., the son of a Massachusetts prison worker who becomes an expert in the manufacture of death penalty devices like electric chairs and lethal injection stations. After being asked to testify for a revisionist Nazi, his life gets completely destroyed..........

Source

Image
View HERE

Directed by Errol Morris

Complete credited cast:

Fred A. Leuchter Jr. .... Himself (as Fred Leuchter)
Robert Jan Van Pelt .... Himself
David Irving .... Himself
Caroline Leuchter .... Herself (voice)
James Roth .... Himself (analytical chemist)
Shelly Shapiro .... Herself
Suzanne Tabasky .... Herself
Ernst Zündel .... Himself
David Collins .... Re-enactment cast
Daniel Polsby .... Re-enactment cast
Jeff Brown .... Re-enactment cast
Robert Duerr .... Re-enactment cast
Last edited by FREE ZUNDEL NOW on Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OR WE DON'T"


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Postby Ajax » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:00 pm)

I have this on video, and thought plenty of good came out of it, as with the book by Stephen Trombley that heavily featured Leuchter. I have always found Zündel's speech at the end of Mr. Death inspiring, but now I do have to say that Irving's description of Leuchter who stumbled into 'something he didn't know much about' - or words to that extent - rather ironic.

Most recommended viewing.
Scour the surface throughly until it is glistening...

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Postby Depth Charge » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:03 am)

I found some new material in this - to me anyway. That Chemist, Roth, came out with a response to Leuchters findings, putting forth a basic argument that the Cyanide wouldn't have penetrated further than one tenth of a hairline on the chamber walls.

He also said that weathering would have made it worse.

He neglects to mention however (as does the entire video) the disinfection chambers, who not only have heavy Prussian Blue staining, but it also penetrated to the exterior of those particular chambers. Not only that, but its still there, on the "outside" of these chambers. Now common sense would tell us that weathering is more potent outside than inside.

Of course this would return us to the argument that more Zyklon B was required to combat insects and the like. But if i'm not mistaken, thats already been covered here as a weak response. And now that we're talking this particular issue, it is (my own) understanding that as means of disinfecting, Zyklon B was used not very often, rather the more standard method was hot air circulation.

On the video itself, i remember hearing there were two versions and that this is the butchered version. I could be completely wrong, i'm possibly thinking on something exclusive to Zundel. But who knows...

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:19 pm)

If my memory serves, Morris tried out the original version of his film on some ordinary students and to his shock found that they showed considerable sympathy for Leuchter and his point of view. That was NOT the idea behind the film so Morris went back and edited it. I imagine that is the version we are seeing. Anyone else recall that?

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm)

Hi,

Yes, Radar, that is correct. Originally Morris (who was a believer) showed the film at Harvard, but, because they didn't come to it as believers, they found Leuchter persuasive. So Morris went back, hired a crew to do the re-enactments, and also hired the ultra-pompous Van Pelf to offer commentary .....

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:59 am)

Bumping this thread because I just watched the film myself and recommend it to anyone who has not yet seen it.

Some reflections on points made above:
- Did Roth provide any evidential support for his claim that cyanic acid would not penetrate the surface of the wall? I can see that once his lab saw what they were involved in they would be scared shitless: their business could be destroyed in the way Fred's was.
- Even if this is valid for a smooth non-porous wall how can it be true for brick, which is very porous? I understood that one of the reasons this product was used for delousing was that it was very penetrative. Then of course there is the penetration right through the walls of the disinfestation chambers. This is dealt with in detail in Astro3's sticky thread, so there is no need to duplicate it here.
- Very interesting that the group of Harvard students found Leuchter convincing and that van Pelt's contribution was added later. Do we have evidence in support of this? Certainly without van Pelt's counterbalancing the film shows a very favourable picture of Fred, and is not unsympathetic to his position. I don't recall the "re-enactments" referred to, though they were mentioned in the credits. It's hard to believe that Morris was a Believer if he originally produced the film minus van Pelt. Maybe he was open-minded; he would hardly own up to being a Revisionist and if the film was perceived as too favourable to Revisionism he would have no choice but to introduce some refuting elements. What do we know about the motivation for producing this film? Was it produced for TV or cinema? Who backed it? How widely was it shown?
- Van Pelt refers to 500,000 murdered in Krema 2 alone! He shows a few details from the archives that people here will be familiar with, including vergasungskeller and gasprufer. Hardly damning proof: the murder of a million people should have left rather more than that behind, though he was allowed to present it as incontrovertible, without any contradiction.
- Even Fred seemed unsure how to pronounce his surname. I'm sure I caught both Liewshter and Loishter from him!

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby SKcz » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:58 am)

Kingfisher wrote:Bumping this thread because I just watched the film myself and recommend it to anyone who has not yet seen it.

Some reflections on points made above:
- Did Roth provide any evidential support for his claim that cyanic acid would not penetrate the surface of the wall? I can see that once his lab saw what they were involved in they would be scared shitless: their business could be destroyed in the way Fred's was.
- Even if this is valid for a smooth non-porous wall how can it be true for brick, which is very porous? I understood that one of the reasons this product was used for delousing was that it was very penetrative. Then of course there is the penetration right through the walls of the disinfestation chambers. This is dealt with in detail in Astro3's sticky thread, so there is no need to duplicate it here.


Germar Rudolf dealt with him in AUSCHWITZ LIES, LEGENDS, LIES & PREJUDICESON THE HOLOCAUST, Rudolf/Mattogno, July 2011, p. 195-198
http://holocausthandbooks.com/18/

Roth explained that cyanide will react on the surface of brick or plaster,penetrating the material not more than 10 microns, or 0.01 mm, or onetenth the thickness of a human hair […]. In other words, if one wants toanalyze the cyanide concentration in a brick sample, one should take a representative sample of the surface, 10 microns thick, and no more.”

Robert J. van Pelt, Pelt Report, introduced during above mentioned trial (David John Cawdell Irving vs. Penguin Books Limited, Deborah E. Lipstadt), p. 307
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/van.asp


But a years ago during the Zundel Trial he stated under oath

“In porous materials such as brick or mortar, the Prussian blue [recte: hydrogen cyanide] could go fairly deep as long as the surface stayed open, but as the Prussian blue formed, it was possible that it would seal the porous material and stop the penetration.”

Prof. James Roth, Barbara Kulaszka, Did Six Million Really Die? Report on the Evidence in the Canadian ‘False News’ Trial of Ernst Zündel – 1988, Samisdat Publishers Ltd., Toronto 1992, p. 363.


And Rudolf added on page 198

My suspicion of Prof. Roth’s dishonesty is supported by another statement Prof. Roth made during this interview:

if he had known where Leuchter’s samples originated from, his analytical results would have been different.(1)

Does that mean that Prof. Roth manipulates his result according to whether or not he likes the origin of certain samples? Such an attitude is exactly the reason why one should never tell an “independent” laboratory about the origin of the samples to be analyzed, simply because “independence” is a very flexible term when it comes to controversial topics. What Prof. Dr. Roth has demonstrated here is only his lack of professional honesty.

1. Statements by van Pelts in Errol Morris‘ documentary film Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of
Fred A. Leuchter, Jr.


So he is liar or he comitted perjury and is dishonest, take your pick. The fact, that he is wrong is obvious even to amateur since the delousing buildings have prussic blue even on the outside, so it can penetrate throught mortar, walls and bricks. I don´t like liars, but I must say that I understand what he did, he wanted to save life, I mean professional life and personal life so no wonder. Of course, this is not an excuse, but...you know.



Kingfisher wrote:- Very interesting that the group of Harvard students found Leuchter convincing and that van Pelt's contribution was added later. Do we have evidence in support of this? Certainly without van Pelt's counterbalancing the film shows a very favourable picture of Fred, and is not unsympathetic to his position. I don't recall the "re-enactments" referred to, though they were mentioned in the credits. It's hard to believe that Morris was a Believer if he originally produced the film minus van Pelt. Maybe he was open-minded; he would hardly own up to being a Revisionist and if the film was perceived as too favourable to Revisionism he would have no choice but to introduce some refuting elements. What do we know about the motivation for producing this film? Was it produced for TV or cinema? Who backed it? How widely was it shown?


According to Germar Rudolf

Such is the title of a documentary movie directed by Errol Morris about Fred Leuchter, shownat the Sundance Film Festival in Park City (Utah, USA) on January 27, 1999.(...) The original versionfirst shown on Jan. 27, 1999, during the Sundance Film Festivals in Park City (Utah) has beenreworked after protests.

Rudolf Report, p. 13


He doesn´t specified what protests and why. Here is the homepage.
http://www.errolmorris.com/film/mrdeath.html

Kingfisher wrote:- Van Pelt refers to 500,000 murdered in Krema 2 alone! He shows a few details from the archives that people here will be familiar with, including vergasungskeller and gasprufer. Hardly damning proof: the murder of a million people should have left rather more than that behind, though he was allowed to present it as incontrovertible, without any contradiction..


Here is "new" claim from Pelt but without source from Green

Robert Jan van Pelt estimates that 350,000 people were killed in morgue 1. At 2000 people
per gassing, that leads to 175 gassings, or approximately 117 hours of exposure (not all of which are at
the maximum exposure because of the decrease owing to ventilation).


IN THE COURT OF APPEAL, Report by Richard J. Green, p. 43
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-​david/rudolf/af​fweb.​pdf
(copy whole link I don´t know what is wrong)


Vergasungskeller or gasprufer, you propably know what´s going on.

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby Zulu » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:11 pm)

SKcz wrote:Here is "new" claim from Pelt but without source from Green

Robert Jan van Pelt estimates that 350,000 people were killed in morgue 1. At 2000 people
per gassing, that leads to 175 gassings, or approximately 117 hours of exposure (not all of which are at
the maximum exposure because of the decrease owing to ventilation).


IN THE COURT OF APPEAL, Report by Richard J. Green, p. 43
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-​david/rudolf/af​fweb.​pdf
(copy whole link I don´t know what is wrong)



Moreover, for those calculated 117h we have to suppose that the ventilation worked properly. What about the issue concerning the fallen corpses which would have blocked all the little openings of the air extraction located near the floor? In such problematic conditions, how long was it supposed to take for ventilating totally the "gas chambers? Was that ventilation at least possible?
A schematic representation of that little ventilation's problem
What about "gassing operations" performed in rooms with more than 100 openings permanently in communication with the exterior?
Is such configuration well in accordance with the mandatory procedures exposed on the document NI-9912 (Pressac p.18)?

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby Hans » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:43 pm)

Zulu wrote:Moreover, for those calculated 117h we have to suppose that the ventilation worked properly. What about the issue concerning the fallen corpses which would have blocked all the little openings of the air extraction located near the floor? In such problematic conditions, how long was it supposed to take for ventilating totally the "gas chambers? Was that ventilation at least possible?
A schematic representation of that little ventilation's problem



This was well addressed by Pressac already more than two decades ago:

He then asked me to imagine:

“the situation in the LK 1 after the gassing of a large number of people: the corpses are heaped on top of one another; they block most of the air extraction orifices; the room is full of warm toxic gas; how can there be rapid and efficient mechanical ventilation? I would say that it is nor possible...”
[...]
What would the SS have done in the case of such an “incident”?

They would have proceeded in two stages:

1. Open wide the doors giving basement access through the north yard and those of the undressing room, whose ventilation system working at full power would prevent the basement being contaminated:

Before putting on their gas masks, the SS would have then ordered two to four members of the Sonderkommando to put on masks, open the gas chamber door and drag bodies out into the vestibule until several of the air extraction orifices had been cleared. Then the gas-tight door would have been closed again, the ventilation restarted, and to improve its efficiency all that was required was to open the Zyklon-B introduction covers, but not until that moment. After verifying by means of a gas detector that there was no longer any danger of hydrocyanic acid intoxication outside the gas chamber, operations would have resumed their “normal” course.

2. Once the gas chamber had been emptied, a squad of fitters or bricklayers would have fixed at the end of the chamber, in the southeast corner a steel duct of about 20 cm diameter and 2 meters high or built a brick chimney of about the same dimensions connecting with or protecting one of the lower air extraction orifices and enabling it to take in warm contaminated air from above. The time taken for the “repair” would not have been longer than an afternoon. Such an incident would not have interrupted the “operation” of the Krematorium. As the documents we possess at present make no mention of such work we can assume for the moment that the case of the “3000” never occurred, the number of victims from a convoy always being less than this.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0377.shtml

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby SKcz » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:45 pm)

Hans wrote:This was well addressed by Pressac already more than two decades ago:

He then asked me to imagine:

“the situation in the LK 1 after the gassing of a large number of people: the corpses are heaped on top of one another; they block most of the air extraction orifices; the room is full of warm toxic gas; how can there be rapid and efficient mechanical ventilation? I would say that it is nor possible...”
[...]
What would the SS have done in the case of such an “incident”?

They would have proceeded in two stages:

1. Open wide the doors giving basement access through the north yard and those of the undressing room, whose ventilation system working at full power would prevent the basement being contaminated:

Before putting on their gas masks, the SS would have then ordered two to four members of the Sonderkommando to put on masks, open the gas chamber door and drag bodies out into the vestibule until several of the air extraction orifices had been cleared. Then the gas-tight door would have been closed again, the ventilation restarted, and to improve its efficiency all that was required was to open the Zyklon-B introduction covers, but not until that moment. After verifying by means of a gas detector that there was no longer any danger of hydrocyanic acid intoxication outside the gas chamber, operations would have resumed their “normal” course.

2. Once the gas chamber had been emptied, a squad of fitters or bricklayers would have fixed at the end of the chamber, in the southeast corner a steel duct of about 20 cm diameter and 2 meters high or built a brick chimney of about the same dimensions connecting with or protecting one of the lower air extraction orifices and enabling it to take in warm contaminated air from above. The time taken for the “repair” would not have been longer than an afternoon. Such an incident would not have interrupted the “operation” of the Krematorium. As the documents we possess at present make no mention of such work we can assume for the moment that the case of the “3000” never occurred, the number of victims from a convoy always being less than this.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0377.shtml


Before we can move forward, I want to know what sources Pressac used for this kind of activity? Did he used testimonies or other sources or did he invent it? He used "They would have proceeded in two stages:" So i guess he invented it since he used word "would"? And if he didn´t use any source, then it didn´t happened since such a remarkable activity would be implemented in testimonies.

If this is the case, sorry, but this is absurd to me, such a dull and absurd way how to dealt with homicidal gassing. It doesn´t make any sense.


C12. I challenge Hans to answer what the testimonies says about the time when the door was opened or when the ventilation was started in alleged gas chambers in Krema II-III.?

C13. I challenge Hans to answer why the ventilation system was more effective in rooms where noone claims that homocidal gassings took place.

C14. I challenge Hans to answer if he found introduction holes in the ceiling, because without the holes, no need to discuss ventilation problem.



Sorry, but Pressac did not adressed it.

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby Hannover » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:00 pm)

More challenges for 'Hans' in regards to claims of gassings at Auschwitz/Birkenau:

- How were Jews tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline states that SS men stood on the roof of the alleged 'gas chambers' and poured Zyklon-B granules (a pesticide) into the alleged openings on the roof? The alleged homicidal gas chamber was mostly buried, meaning the roof was just a few feet above ground level and in clear sight of the alleged next batch of 2,000 Jews who were allegedly standing just outside the 'gas chamber' door awaiting their turn.

- How were Jews tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline states that SS men on the roof removed the Zyklon-B containers that supposedly they had previously lowered into 'holes' in the 'gas chambers' roof? It takes hours for the Zyklon-B granules to finish releasing it's lethal cyanide load and the story states that batches of 2,0000 Jews were gassed in mere minutes within the 'gas chambers'. Allegedly there was another batch of Jews awaiting their turn just outside the alleged 'gas chamber' where they could watch this entire procedure, as well as being gassed where they stood.

- How were Jews tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline states that the 'gas chambers' ventilation systems removed the cyanide gas out into the open air where another batch of Jews were supposedly standing right next to the 'gas chambers'. And wouldn't the people dropping like flies in the vicinity have told you something?

- How were Jews tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline also states that the SS opened the alleged 'gas chambers doors' in just minutes in order to allow the cyanide to escape into the open air thereby gassing everyone in the general vicinity?

- How were Jews tricked into thinking they were getting showers after viewing the dead bodies of allegedly gassed Jews, since the 4 ft. X 9 ft. hand drawn elevator which was supposed to have lifted 2,000 Jews in just a few minutes to the crematoria above the alleged ' gas chamber' would not have been capable of such a magical feat?

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby Hektor » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:49 am)

Kingfisher wrote:Bumping this thread because I just watched the film myself and recommend it to anyone who has not yet seen it.

Some reflections on points made above:
...- Van Pelt refers to 500,000 murdered in Krema 2 alone! He shows a few details from the archives that people here will be familiar with, including vergasungskeller and gasprufer. Hardly damning proof: the murder of a million people should have left rather more than that behind, though he was allowed to present it as incontrovertible, without any contradiction.

Especially in the light of the documents in question don't indicate anything in terms of homicidal gassings. In fact, if you read the Vergasungskeller document carefully, you'll see that it actually contradicts the usual narrative!

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby Zulu » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:13 am)

Hektor wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:Bumping this thread because I just watched the film myself and recommend it to anyone who has not yet seen it.

Some reflections on points made above:
...- Van Pelt refers to 500,000 murdered in Krema 2 alone! He shows a few details from the archives that people here will be familiar with, including vergasungskeller and gasprufer. Hardly damning proof: the murder of a million people should have left rather more than that behind, though he was allowed to present it as incontrovertible, without any contradiction.

Especially in the light of the documents in question don't indicate anything in terms of homicidal gassings. In fact, if you read the Vergasungskeller document carefully, you'll see that it actually contradicts the usual narrative!

You are right. In fact, that document is a blatant proof that morgues were in construction at Krema II accordingly with the corresponding drawings. The delayed works of those rooms (Leichenkeller 1 and 2) for the reasons explained on the letter, obliged SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Bischoff to use as a provisional alternative another room named "Vergasungkeller" - with no indication of its location - in order to store properly the corpses which had to be burned in the ovens already operational. That situation indicates clearly the normal function of the crematorium which was to recover entirely his functionality once Leichenkeller 1 and 2 were completed and then finally able to store corpses before their cremation. The estimated date for the completion is 20th February 1943.
it is probable that the installation will be entirely ready for service on 20th February 1943.
What means "ready for service"? The service of any crematorium: to store corpses in Leichenkeller and cremate them in ovens. That letter to SS General Kammler makes no sense if Bischoff was building a killing system - 1 Undressing room (Leichenkeller 2) + 1 gas chamber (Leichenkeller 1) - because in that case he wouldn't have any need for storing corpses in rooms not planed for it. The delayed works were an issue for storing corpses not for killing people as it is clear on that paper. Logic at work.
As this letter is of January 29, 1943 that document debunks a lot of anterior "criminal traces" listed by Pressac for that building.

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby Zulu » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:33 am)

Hans wrote:
Zulu wrote:Moreover, for those calculated 117h we have to suppose that the ventilation worked properly. What about the issue concerning the fallen corpses which would have blocked all the little openings of the air extraction located near the floor? In such problematic conditions, how long was it supposed to take for ventilating totally the "gas chambers? Was that ventilation at least possible?
A schematic representation of that little ventilation's problem



This was well addressed by Pressac already more than two decades ago:

He then asked me to imagine:

“the situation in the LK 1 after the gassing of a large number of people: the corpses are heaped on top of one another; they block most of the air extraction orifices; the room is full of warm toxic gas; how can there be rapid and efficient mechanical ventilation? I would say that it is nor possible...”
[...]
What would the SS have done in the case of such an “incident”?

They would have proceeded in two stages:
Blablabla

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0377.shtml

So, we have to assume that:

1- The German engineers were complete idiots. They didn't know how to design correctly a "homicidal gas chamber" for killing batches of 2000-3000 people at a time. Not only they installed a wrong system of ventilation but they didn't plan nothing to avoid that more than 100 openings were constantly communicating with the exterior. In addition they put more installed power (in W/m3) to ventilate an "undressing room" than a "gas chamber". Not to mention the brilliant idea of using not less than 4 holes for introducing the lethal pellets of Zyklon without any system to warm them for a quick evaporation of the HCN.

2- Pressac is cleverer than them and gives those idiots the solution we haven't even any material traces they have actually "adopted". To resume: we have missed a good "criminal trace" on that.

3-How could last the task of liberating little openings through more than 1 m of entangled cadavers while wearing a gas mask? Wouldn't have supposed that kind of maneuver such a hard effort that the filters of the masks wouldn't have lasted very long?

4- No one among surviving Sonderkommandos remembered that morbid circus act these cruel SS obliged them to perform. What a story they missed for the tales! Let us Imagine that: "After all people were gassed and died, then in order to allow the ventilation of the room, the SS sadistically ordered us to climb more than 1 m of stacked cadavers and walk on them for liberating the 40 little openings of air extraction near the floor. That was a horrible task to walk on the bellies and the heads of little babies. Sometime my foot penetrated into those martyred little blue or black corpses with an atrocious noise. etc...." What a part we have lost!

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Re: Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leucht

Postby SKcz » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:47 pm)

Nice points Zulu, I always laugh a bit when ordinary amateurs like me or other peoples are capable of projecting the working homicidal gas chamber for mass murder, but those dumb "orthodox nazis" weren´t able to project gas chamber even for one man.

V1, V2, microwave delousing chamber, Königstiger, Panthers, first jet planes, fathers of Space program, Gustav and Dora, submarines, and so on, but homicidal gas chamber? An impossible task!


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