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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:08 pm)

Some posts are crossing the line here, I deleted one and edited another. Remember our guidelines.
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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:58 pm)

I'm not joking here. Give me a break or some of you will have your posts previewed before they appear. If that doesn't work, well then ....
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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:50 pm)

vincentferrer wrote:

Of course. It has nothing to do with .... Scripture.


vincentferrer,

If you wish to discuss the Bible and what is scriptural and what is not
there many forums where that is the topic of discussion.

The fact of the incorporation of Holocaust Theology into
mainstream religion and how that is and will affect revisionists
and all free speech is the topic being discussed in this thread.

vincentferrer wrote:The Holocaust comments from the Archbishop (and the Pope),
are his opinion, and are not, repeat, NOT church teaching.



vincentferrer,

What is called Holocaust Theology or as it is also called by many
Holocaustianity is being incorporated into both the Catholic and
Protestant church teachings - preaching.

Here is just one of hundreds of examples of this being done at the
grass roots level.


Catholic teachers 'bear witness' to Holohoax

Catholic teachers 'bear witness' through Israel trip


By SAM SER
http://tinyurl.com/ngw89

Some 30 Catholic school teachers from across the United States are
in Israel for an in-depth course on anti-Semitism sponsored by the
Anti-Defamation League. The teachers were selected from almost 500
who have already participated in workshops in the US based on the
same program.

This program, called "Bearing Witness", is different from other efforts in
which the ADL and other Jewish groups are already engaged to cultivate
positive relationships with Christians in that it aims at the grassroots level
rather than official representatives.

Also, it focuses on teachers because of their role in shaping the moral
education of young Catholics.

The idea, said project originator David Friedman, is "not to leave the
heroism of Righteous Gentiles to chance... [but to] educate a generation
of Catholics dedicated to living the changes [in Catholic-Jewish relations]
that the Vatican has initiated" over the past 40 years.

Karen Brady from Tucson, Arizona, is one of the participants on the trip.
Like many of her colleagues, she also joined the ADL for a four-day trip
to Poland this past spring. Unlike most, however, she spoke at the OSCE's
conference on anti-Semitism in Cordoba, Spain, in June, explaining how
Bearing Witness has made an impact on her and her diocese.

"The spiritual connection," she said, "separates this from all other
Holocaust programs. When I first started this, years ago, my husband
said, -Are you going to turn Jewish? But my Catholicism has only grown
stronger through this."

The ADL works in conjunction with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in
Washington, where it holds national conferences that serve as introductions
to Bearing Witness. The program is authorized by the US conference of
Catholic Bishops and the National Association of Catholic School Teachers.
Often teachers who have completed the program recommend it to others,
who recommend it to others, and so on.

"We never thought it would be this big. It has exploded," said Paul Wieser,
a Catholic who oversees Holocaust programming for the ADL. "But we
wouldn't have all this programming if it didn't work."

It has worked for Dennis Ruggiero, a theology teacher in Atlanta, Georgia.
Since attending his first Holocaust seminar in 1997, Ruggiero has
developed an intense course on the Holocaust for his high-school seniors,
even taking them to the Holocaust museum in Washington each year.

"Bearing Witness has made a huge difference,"
said Ruggiero, "and it has changed my life."



Tom

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Postby Goethe » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:10 pm)

"We never thought it would be this big. It has exploded," said Paul Wieser,
a Catholic who oversees Holocaust programming for the ADL. "But we
wouldn't have all this programming if it didn't work."

It has worked for Dennis Ruggiero, a theology teacher in Atlanta, Georgia.
Since attending his first Holocaust seminar in 1997, Ruggiero has
developed an intense course on the Holocaust for his high-school seniors,
even taking them to the Holocaust museum in Washington each year.

"Bearing Witness has made a huge difference,"
said Ruggiero, "and it has changed my life."

"But we wouldn't have all this programming if it didn't work."

IOW, indoctrination works and it makes money. We're shocked.

"Bearing Witness has made a huge difference,"
said Ruggiero, "and it has changed my life."

Witness to what? Theme park contrivances and ridiculous lies which defy laws of science?
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:50 pm)

Catholic teachers 'bear witness' through Israel trip wrote:
The idea, said project originator David Friedman, is "not to leave the
heroism of Righteous Gentiles to chance... [but to] educate a generation
of Catholics dedicated to living the changes [in Catholic-Jewish relations]
that the Vatican has initiated" over the past 40 years.


"The spiritual connection," she (Karen Brady) said, "separates this from
all other Holocaust programs.


The Holocaust promoters, both Jews and Gentiles, have effectively solved
the problem of all the Holocaust survivors passing on and no new ones
being born.

Now we will have a whole new generation of Righteous Gentiles, who
will "Bear Witness" to the Holocaust with great religious fervor.

In the past Christians would be "Witness for Christ". My, how times
have changed.

The ball game will soon have a lot more "true believers" - I wonder
how well they will respond to attempts to have rational discussions of
the "Holocaust"?


Tom

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:38 pm)

This subject is very important to revisionism.

First, the comments of Faurisson and the other revisionists NEVER appear in what I would call the mainstream media. Tha't what I was referring to. And since you can't buy any revisionist books in mainstream sources, can't hear their views on TV or radio, can't read about them in the news papers, that means they are like a tree falling in a distant forest as far as the public is concerned. They are effectively silenced.

Secondly, the indocrination of Catholic educators has been going on for some time with these Zionist organized visits to Israel. They have NOTHING to do with religion and are propaganda efforts by the Zionists and are very effective. Many of the visitors are appallingly ignorant about the history of the Palestine conflict and do not even realize they are being used. Many come back dedicated Israel supporters, Holocaust true believers and enemies of revisionism. Any Catholic revisionists should become aware of what is going on and speak out against these projects. At least insist on contact with the Palestinians. The Israelis and their American agents won't organize it but it can be done.

In view of the size of the Catholic Church in America and the shameful weakness of its position on these matters this is a matter of the greatest importance.

The ignorance reaches up into the Catholic hierarchy, one of whom, a Bishop, told me personally that the Holocaust facts had all been established scientifically. He relied mainly on the local Holocaust museum for his information. Naive? You bet. Religion? Of course not, no more than the earth revolution controversies of the past.

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:27 pm)

Radar wrote:
This subject is very important to revisionism.

In view of the size of the Catholic Church in America
and the shameful weakness of its position on these
matters this is a matter of the greatest importance.


Radar,

Yes, you are right it is very important to revisionism....
But it is equally as important to any and all who value free
speech and free inquiry.

And it is not just the Catholic church. From what I have seen
I would say that there is a very good chance this "Holocaust
Theology" is being taught in every Divinity School of every
denomination and in the religion deptartment of most every
college and university in America.

Of course, this teaching is backed up by the History Departments
in the Univs.

I am sure there are exceptions but they are few I fear.


Tom

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:19 am)

Remember who exactly wrote and signed the recent anti-Butz manifesto at Northwestern? Was it the folks at the Physics or History faculties? No. It was the Religious Studies people who actually came into the street asking for his head.

Think about it. How many people have found this simple fact odd?

Not many. People already have the subconscious notion that this is a matter concerning "respect", "faith" and "religious duty", rather than one for open investigation.

Or take Deborah Lipstadt. Do the media folks know what she really teaches? Do they know she is a professor of Religion, not Science or hard History? Of course they do, but still they won't find it strange that a teacher of religious folklore would be trying to block publication of David Irving's new History books...

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:15 am)

ASMarques wrote:Or take Deborah Lipstadt. Do the media folks know what she really teaches? Do they know she is a professor of Religion, not Science or hard History? Of course they do, but still they won't find it strange that a teacher of religious folklore would be trying to block publication of David Irving's new History books...


Yes, it's striking. Especially when you think of the constant cries from the holohoaxers that the revisionist scholars "do not have the academical competence" to carry out research on the subject. They say things like "Butz is an electronics engineer so he is not competent enough to write anything on the Holocaust" and take advantage of the common man's tendency to blind belief in authorities, making the "incompetence" of Butz et al something "known" a priori by the public. Of course they don't want it to be known that the fundaments to their hoax can be exposed by any rational adult with some time on his hands.

On the other hand, as ASM notes, many of the leading hoaxers have no competence within the field of science or hard history, rather they are theologists or soft "historians" like van Pelt (whose field is the history of ideas). What's troubling is that "soft historians" seems to be taking over more and more of the historical institutions of the West. This kind of "historian" cares very little for objectivity, evidence or reality at large, often neglecting even documents to dream up a "post modern" mumbo jumbo historiography made up of "perspectives" and "narrative" where the reality of the Holocaust is simply taken for granted. Thus historians becomes the mere tools of Holohoax lobbyists, theologians and ideologists.

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Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:25 am)

What truly puzzles me is that I have debated many people , who self identify as evolutionists, teachers, professors, etc, and they will not concede one inch, from the officially proscribed holocaust position.

To me, that means they are taking the entire story' on faith'.

for gosh sakes Mr Professor , if there are no remains of gas in a gas chamber, and no evidence that bodies were ever buried in a pit that witnesses claim held 870,000, then what other explanation do YOU have.

Skip the ad hominem attacks and the charater assassination remarks, just be a scientist, and give some answer !

They won't !

Reminds me of the phone conversation I had with the director of research at the Simon Wiesenthal Musuem of Tolerance.

He was happy to talk holocasut as long as I stayed on his trajectory.
He told me he hangs up on deniers.

I told him I was not a denier, just curious, and then asked him abut the reasons for no gas/ blue staining ever being found in the gas chamber and why there is no hard evidence one can point to like wood shipments or massive deforestation at Treblinka that would account for the burning of 870,000 bodies. In fact, nobody knows where the bodies are.


Ah ha ! He thundered... you ARE a DENIER, and I am not talking to YOU !

dial tone.

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:37 pm)

ASMarques wrote:Remember who exactly wrote and signed the recent anti-Butz manifesto at Northwestern?
Was it the folks at the Physics or History faculties? No. It was the Religious Studies people
who actually came into the street asking for his head.

Think about it...


ASMarques,

It certainly was the Department of Religion and on official department stationary, too.

Here is a scan of that letter: http://www.neveragaincampaign.org/state ... ligion.php

The Department of Religion collectively drafted a letter that opposed Butz's
professorship at NU and denounced his abuse of the tenure system.

The entire 14-member department signed the letter.

The Department of Religion is a major supporter of the Never Again
Campaign which "aims to increase Holocaust education".
http://www.neveragaincampaign.org/

The Northwestern Dept. of Religion includes the Garrett-Evangelical
Seminary and the Seabury-Western Seminary so it is not just a small dept...
It is big business.

The reason why the Department of Religion came out so forcefully against
Arthur Butz and anyone who questions the "Holocaust" in any way should
be obvious to anyone who looks, in depth, at the interrelationship between
the Dept. of Religion and the Dept. of Jewish Studies.

Graduate Studies
http://www.religion.northwestern.edu/gr ... dex.html#2

Religion, Ethics, and Public Life

"Our greatest strengths lie in the Jewish, Roman Catholic, and Buddhist traditions. (religions)"

Listed as a resource for the religion department is a large list of
links to sites by "God's chosen" that you may find interesting.

http://www.religion.northwestern.edu/re ... index.html

Also listed as a resource for the religion department, the The Crown Family
Center for Jewish Studies (Northwestern University Jewish Studies Program)
offers a great many courses on both "the Bible (Old Testament)
and Jewish history" and also the "Holocaust and anti-Semitism".


There are also other depts. that have courses related promoting "The Holocaust".

Tom

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Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:08 pm)

Has anyone talked with any of the 14 faculty members to determine what leads them to denounce Dr. Butz ?

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:09 pm)

vincentferrer wrote:Has anyone talked with any of the 14 faculty members to determine what leads them to denounce Dr. Butz ?


Dont' go to the trouble. If they feel the whole thing deeply enough to harrass a professional colleague with public petitions against his tenure, I can tell you exactly what they will do: they will retreat into horrified surprise and will then do everything they can to shut you up. Exactly the same a devout bishop of the old persuasion would do if he felt his unsubmitted religion was really alive and you dared to doubt the many miracles of the Good Lord.

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Postby Tom » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:20 pm)

vincentferrer wrote: what leads them (the Department of Religion) to denounce Dr. Butz ?

vincentferrer,

Perhaps they, just like many millions, have been deceived...
...." innoculated against truth".


"Religious deception is painless innoculation against truth.
It cannot be removed from the conscience with surgery,
yet it is the motivator of our actions and directly controls
our lives. Once man gives over to false religion, he is no
longer rational because he originates no thought. His life
is controlled by whomever controls his religion.

"The veil of false religion is the sword of Damocles and
its power to control humanity defies even the imagination
of tyrants who use it."


Tom

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Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:29 pm)

This article is a sore point with some defenders. I do not see that being the case? What am I missing.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110005318

Is this article supposed to neutralize the entire work of Butz ?
well, some folks believe that.


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