Why They Could Not Have Hosed Down The Gas Chambers

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Reinhard
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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri May 19, 2006 1:57 am)

As for the ground water level in Auschwitz see:
http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/1/GaertnerRademacher3-12.html

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri May 19, 2006 9:13 pm)

The Auschwitz I gas chamber is a better example. This chamber could not have had any Kula Columns because it operated before they were invented. Therefore the gassing scenario involved a dropping of the pellets through the alleged ports now seen at Auschwitz. Without these columns the pellets would have dropped into the crowd of victims and landed on the floor. When the victims dropped dead they would have fallen on top of and amongst the outgassing pellets. Since the pellets took over an hour to fully discharge their cyanide content there would have been significant accumulation of cyanide residue in the chamber - especially on the floor where the pellets came in contact with the floor concrete.

The standard story tells us it took up to 20 minutes to complete a Zyklon gassing. If we had several hundred in the Auschwitz I chamber, after 20 minutes the doors would have been swung open to a dense cloud of cyanide gas with the obstructed pellets still yet to fully discharge over 50% of their cyanide content. If we are generous and allow 20 minutes for genocide crazed super sondercommandos to remove hundreds of bodies (realistically an hour at best) we still have a good 40 minute exposure of the chamber to over 60% cyanide discharge from the Zyklon. This cyanide would have reacted strongly with the chamber materials.

So any wash down in this chamber would have occurred after the cyanide had at least a good 40 minutes minimum to penetrate the chamber materials. Plus we have a manhole that probably would have collected serious cyanide around its rim and dripping into its inside. Not to mention the regular floor drains.

The highest exposure in this chamber would have been the floor where the pellets landed and outgassed. These pellets would have outgassed in direct contact with the floor materials for at least 40 minutes.

I humbly suggest a simple recreation of Zyklon-B in reaction to such floor materials would easily disprove any claim of washing down or lack of residue.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat May 20, 2006 11:29 am)

I have on numerous occasions tried bringing up the drainage question, but feel it pointless even bothering raising issues of a practical/ real-world nature, it’s somewhat like banging your head against a brick wall.

There are many problems with these drains, first and foremost the total and unnecessary method used to employ them, a complete disaster from start to finish, which compliment the abortive ducts perfectly.

Why bother you ask, what’s he on about?

Well, why not put a run (slope) on the slab falling away from the main frontage of the crematoria and put one floor gulley, gravity fed at the far end of the morgue? This will then act as a branch drain to be picked up by the main drain from the crematoria? Why go to the tremendous trouble, time, and effort installing this convoluted mess built into the strip foundation, which runs back into the building?

Fatal mistake one: The main run is set within the concrete strip, this is supporting the drains. At the change of direction at the last gulley they turn 90 degrees and before exiting the building and entering the supposed inspection chamber.

Well where the 90 degree return is, the forgers have not set them in concrete, so any movement will cause an instant shear in the drains, especially as also they have put the change of direction and loss of support right slap-bang on a spigot (joint)….Arseholes!

Fatal mistake two: This is the ultimate in utter and unbelievable incompetence and to anyone who knows the art of setting drains would piss themselves at.

They have made absolutely no allowance for the clearance of any blockages.

These drains are basically sealed and are completely unserviceable, also sitting down near the water table (unless you want to dig the foundations and floor slab up) No-one who lays drains in a situation such as this would leave out basic rodding/access points, you just do not do it!

There should be a rodding point at the far end of the morgue, enabling the the main run to be cleared. As a matter of cause one should always add rodding points at any change of direction…Full stop!

You are trying to tell me that this morgue was stuffed with people, who were then supposedly gassed, can you imagine the effluent that would have been entering this drainage system after such an operation?

Solids: Faeces, vomit, hair, nails, skin, maybe even teeth if panic had set in.

Liquids: Urine, spittle, blood.

And you never made any attempt at allowing the drains to be cleaned?

Do not waste your time suggesting the drains could have been cleaned via the floor gulleys, because they would have been trapped. A trap is a water trap exactly like you get on your latrine, Sink, basin to stop foul odours, disease, germs entering your living space.

If you suggest these morgues never hat trapped floor gulleys, then that basically means that an open sewer existed in the morgue…Take your pick!

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Postby Blue 88 » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat May 20, 2006 3:30 pm)

Brecker wrote:
Blue 88 wrote:Again, considering the small amounts of contaminants involved here the wastewater treatment necessary for the alleged gaschambers is minor.


Not minor at all considering the allegations of constant gassings and huge amounts of Zyklon-B that would be necessary to kill about 2000 people per load in the 5-10 minute time length as is alleged by the always amazing eyewitnesses. I believe Germar Rudolf demonstrated that it would have taken 10 times the amount of Zyklon-B for the claimed gassings of Jews compared to the routine delousing of clothing etc. That's a lot of cyanide.


Pressac says that four 1.5 kilogram cans of Zyklon-B were used for each gassing. At one gassing per day that is 6 kilograms of HCN. I don't think that would be so difficult to dispose of, especially if something like chloride of lime was used to to neutralize and disinfect the mess when it was washed down the drain.

TMoran wrote:
Blue 88 wrote:Although I don't think that hosing down the walls would prevent Prussian Blue stains from forming, and I agree that the corpses being impregnated with HCN would put the chemical in contact with the walls and the floor in variably strong concentrations, I don't think some of the objections here are valid.

For one thing the water table is not at sea level, but much higher, so it is easy to have plumbing below the water table which drains to some point downstream--and could probably be discharged directly into the Vistula with no problems considering the small amount of hazardous waste involved.


Sea level wouldn't have anything to do with whether or not water can be evacuated from one place to another. Sea level is 'ultimate base level' yet there are many other levels below other levels. Lakes would be one, fed by streams coming from a higher place. 'Down stream' would be another. All you would need to drain water from one place to another is a lower level.


Exactly.

TMoran wrote:The trenches were fifty feet or so behind Crema II. The Vistula was about a mile. Then too the typical plumbing codes in any particular town are that drain lines have an 1/8th inch drop every four feet. Other wise the stuff wouldn't flow. Eight times four feet equals 32 feet, one inch every 32 feet. One hundred and seventy inches over the distance. That would be well below the level of the river located in the meander plain that Berkenau was. (See aerial photo with ox bow lakes and scars.)


The water level of the river will be higher upstream than downstream and it generates enough of a head along its path to flow toward sea level, regardless of what the actual drop is per given distance.

Whether we have a sump pump, an injection well, or a more complicated drain field network, all I'm saying is that the problem would not be insurmountable. Besides, there would need to be some way to hose out and disinfect the basement anyway, even if it were built and used solely as a morgue.

Clearly the Germans went to some bother to build the rooms partially underground to keep them cool, and that makes no sense if the structure were ever intended for gassings at any time before the ground was first broken on the building.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat May 20, 2006 9:38 pm)

Blue 88 said:
Pressac says that four 1.5 kilogram cans of Zyklon-B were used for each gassing. At one gassing per day that is 6 kilograms of HCN. I don't think that would be so difficult to dispose of, especially if something like chloride of lime was used to to neutralize and disinfect the mess when it was washed down the drain.

Wrong, Blue 88.

As usual, Pressac was quite incorrect.

Master Chemist Germar Rudolf (now in Thought Crime prison for writing the source of the quote below) takes Pressac to school:
Since the carrier material only releases approximately 10% of its hydrogen cyanide content after five minutes (see chapter 7.2.), at least ten times that amount would have been required in order to kill in only a few minutes, i.e., this would mean the utilization of at least 15 kg of Zyklon B.[467] This, of course, only applies on the condition that the hydrogen cyanide released reached the victims immediately, which cannot be expected in large, overcrowded cellars. It must therefore be considered established that quantities of at least 20 kg of Zyklon B per gassing (ten 2 kg cans or twenty 1 kg cans) would probably have had to have been used for the gassing procedures described.

- http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/7.html#7.3.1.3.
of:
http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/

Multiply that by the alleged constant, round the clock gassings (at least 2-3 per hour), month after month after month etc., and you have huge amounts of cyanide in the groundwater.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun May 21, 2006 12:13 am)

I'd be interested if "Blue 88" had any thoughts about my points on the pellets hitting the floor in the non-Kula Column Auschwitz I chamber?

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Postby polardude » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun May 21, 2006 1:46 am)

The cellars have drainage and had drainage. Whatever drainage system it had must still be working because otherwise they would be filled with water, which they are not.

The drainage system of Krematorium III was simplified as compared with that of Krematorium II. For example, the Kr II gas chamber [Leichenkeller 1] sewer manhole was brick built with an internal iron ladder, whereas in Kr III it was simply a few sections of low cost concrete pipe [Documents 44, 45, 46, 47 and 48]. In the author's opinion, this type of simplification of construction, based on the experience of building Krematorium II, was used wherever possible in Krematorium III, which probably explains its lower overall cost: 554,550 RM for Kr III, as against probably 646,000 RM for Kr II."


Althouth this sewer manhole is not visible on the August 1944 aerial photos, where one would suspect it ought to be.

Suggesting perhaps this was installed after WW2.

To me this looks like this particular cellar was suffering from a drainage problem

Image
http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0234.htm

To me that looks like a high water level in the foreground (up to 5 feet deep). The fact that it no longer suffers from this problem suggests that there may have been some work done to keep the cellar water free (perhaps something that was overlooked when they prepared Birkenau to become a memorial site) rather than any serious attempt at investigation

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Postby Blue 88 » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun May 21, 2006 3:08 am)

Radar wrote:I'd be interested if "Blue 88" had any thoughts about my points on the pellets hitting the floor in the non-Kula Column Auschwitz I chamber?


I agree with your assessments, and also that the HCN-saturated bodies would keep the cyanide in contact with the floor and walls longer and inhibit ventilation because the HCN gas would dissolve into moisture from the bodies, each of which would have to be handled cautiously. There would be all kinds of hot spots throughout the chamber and I do not see how Prussian Blue stains could not have formed in those places, although real world experiments need to be conducted in order to debunk Dr. Green's objections to Rudolf.

Hannover wrote:Wrong, Blue 88.

As usual, Pressac was quite incorrect.

Master Chemist Germar Rudolf (now in Thought Crime prison for writing the source of the quote below) takes Pressac to school


Pressac's figures are based on little more than speculation. I also agree with Rudolf that a huge Zyklon-B overdose would be needed; however, Rudolf himself has little reliable empirical data to offer us, and some experiments need to be conducted to test his hypotheses. Also, just because Rudolf is in jail for writing politically-incorrect things, this does not necessary make him right.

If the gaschamber does not necessarily have to work in 2-4 minutes for each batch, followed by the long process of unloading and burning of the corpses, and if the eyewitnesses did not necessarily know what they were talking about, then we can dispense with the huge overdoses of cyanide gambit and just wait a little longer for outgassing. The "huge doses of cyanide" angle is not congruent with the fact that no staining was found on the walls, anyway.
Last edited by Blue 88 on Sun May 21, 2006 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun May 21, 2006 4:23 am)

polardude wrote:The cellars have drainage and had drainage. Whatever drainage system it had must still be working because otherwise they would be filled with water, which they are not.

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Gärtner and Dipl.-Ing. Werner Rademacher wrote in their article "Ground Water in the Area of the POW camp Birkenau" (published in The Revisionist, No. 1/2003):
Another sign is the planning and construction of buildings with tub foundations. Buildings are built with this kind of foundation when their basements stand in the ground water, i.e. if they need to be waterproof. The basement becomes a pontoon, as it were, whose own weight, together with the weight of the superstructure, prevents it from bobbing up. The buildings are constructed in double-shell fashion in these parts. A waterproof layer separates the two shells. During the construction phase, the ground water level is either lowered with sump pumps or held back by icing-up the construction site. All the basement parts and basement pits in Birkenau are constructed as tub foundations.

It is important to note that the buildings with tub foundations listed in the following are spread over the entire camp from north to south as well as from east to west. This indicates that the ground water situation was similar in all parts of the camp.


1. Crematorium II
BW 30

2. Crematorium III
BW 30a

3. Crematorium IV
BW 30b

4. Crematorium V
BW 30c

5. Disinfestation Facility
BW 32

6. Water Treatment Plant
BW35


Due to their small surface area and depth, the subsoil at Crematoria IV and V was iced up.[45] The excavation pits of the other buildings were kept clear of ground water via sunken wells equipped with pumps.[46]

Source: http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/1/GaertnerRademacher3-12.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun May 21, 2006 10:21 am)

Blue 88 says:
Pressac's figures are based on little more than speculation. I also agree with Rudolf that a huge Zyklon-B overdose would be needed; however, Rudolf himself has little reliable empirical data to offer us, and some experiments need to be conducted to test his hypotheses. Also, just because Rudolf is in jail for writing politically-incorrect things, this does not necessary make him right.

If the gaschamber does not necessarily have to work in 2-4 minutes for each batch, followed by the long process of unloading and burning of the corpses, and if the eyewitnesses did not necessarily know what they were talking about, then we can dispense with the huge overdoses of cyanide gambit and just wait a little longer for outgassing. The "huge doses of cyanide" angle is not congruent with the fact the no staining was found on the walls, anyway.

Curious that he earlier presented Pressac's "little more than speculation" as a rebuttal, but somehow ignore's Rudolf, who in fact presents a flood of empirical evidence; Blue 88 should actually read the links I posted.
http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/7.html#7.3.1.3.
of:
http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/

Blue 88 also creates a strawman with his:
If the gaschamber does not necessarily have to work in 2-4 minutes for each batch ..

Rudolf uses a time length of 10 minutes, as in US execution times, why does Blue 88 distort what Rudolf actually says?

Another strawman is his "because Rudolf is in jail for writing politically-incorrect things, this does not necessary make him right."
No one said it did. But Rudolf stands unrefuted in his research, and the fact that he IS in prison says plenty about the inability of the 'holocau$t' Industrty and entire nations to credibly counter his work.

Also noted is Blue 88's avoidance of Radar's question:
I'd be interested if "Blue 88" had any thoughts about my points on the pellets hitting the floor in the non-Kula Column Auschwitz I chamber?


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun May 21, 2006 5:34 pm)

Blue 88,
Do not alter your posts after someone has posted a response to them, as you did after Hannover responded to you. Here is what happened after you altered your post:
Last edited by Blue 88 on Sun May 21, 2006 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Which was 1 hour, 9 minutes after Hannover had responded to that post, as shown in Hannover's post time here:
Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 8:21 am

As they say, you've been busted.
It's particularily important because you seriously changed the contents by altering the post. Do it again and you're gone.
M3

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun May 21, 2006 5:59 pm)

polardude wrote:
To me this looks like this particular cellar was suffering from a drainage problem

Image
http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0234.htm

To me that looks like a high water level in the foreground (up to 5 feet deep). The fact that it no longer suffers from this problem suggests that there may have been some work done to keep the cellar water free (perhaps something that was overlooked when they prepared Birkenau to become a memorial site) rather than any serious attempt at investigation


Well, that's the Soviet excavation of Krema III - yes, III, I believe, after it was blown up. You'd expect the drains to be blocked after the building was dynamited.

This picture is interesting when considering again, ferrocyanide stains. With so much water there, it's obvious that any water-soluable cyanide compound is going to be long gone. Obviously, the only cyanide compound that could be left is ferrocyanate, since that's forever.

Leuchter and Rudolf found none - the Jan Sehn Institute, when they ran a test for ferrocyanide, also found none. They did finally find some cyanide residue, but only by a test that could find cyanide EXCLUSIVE OF FERROCYANATE.

With so much water - just look at it in the picture - it's obvious that whatever cyanide they found could not have been from the 1940's. This is something I criticize Leuchter, Rudolf and the Jan Sehn Institute for - they never considered the possibility that the cyanides they were finding were of modern origin, the result of air pollution. With Europes biggest synthetic rubber plant only four miles away from the Krema's, I think I know where the cyanide they found came from.

Other than that, the drainage in the Krema's was probably adequate for all purposes. I've found no complaints from the SS about it, and as the records of the Central Construction Office show, the SS was always quick to complain to their contractors about any shortfalls or deficiencies. Heh. I wish the contractor I hired for my house was as responsive.

My face is still red from the first post of this thread, where I thought there were no drains in the Kremas. A lesson hard learned. Research before you post.

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Postby Blue 88 » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 22, 2006 2:59 pm)

Playwright wrote:Other than that, the drainage in the Krema's was probably adequate for all purposes.


That was my point.

The notion that washing down the walls prevented the formation of Prussian Blue just does not wash, but not because the drainage was inadequate or couldn't carry off some cyanide waste and other offal.

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Postby Breker » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon May 22, 2006 5:20 pm)

by Blue88,
he notion that washing down the walls prevented the formation of Prussian Blue just does not wash, but not because the drainage was inadequate or couldn't carry off some cyanide waste and other offal.

Goodness. He says "some", that could be miniscule. But certainly not in the amounts that Rudolf has shown would have been necessary to carry out the crazy gassings as they are said to have happened. We know "some" cyanide" is found in the air near industrial centers.

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Postby Blue 88 » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue May 23, 2006 11:38 am)

Brecker wrote:
Blue88 wrote:the notion that washing down the walls prevented the formation of Prussian Blue just does not wash, but not because the drainage was inadequate or couldn't carry off some cyanide waste and other offal.


Goodness. He says "some", that could be miniscule. But certainly not in the amounts that Rudolf has shown would have been necessary to carry out the crazy gassings as they are said to have happened. We know "some" cyanide" is found in the air near industrial centers.

I don't see why the drains couldn't have carried off the amounts postulated by Rudolf (or by Pressac) for each gassing per day. Most of the HCN would have been carried off by the ventilation system anyway.

If you object to the word "some," be advised that I wrote more elaborate comments on this and drainage which were not published by the Moderator.

The bottom line is that I agree that washing down the walls would not have prevented the formation of Prussian Blue. So we keep it clear and on-topic.


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