alleged death camps and rail gauges

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Hotzenplotz
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alleged death camps and rail gauges

Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:21 pm)

We've had this before in other threads but I wanted to add some pictures for better overview.

The idea is that the so-called death camps were really transit camps, and that they were located were the gauge changed: Russia had a different gauge from Germany and Poland. Thus, since the trains had to be changed, it was logical from the Nazi's point of view to bring deportees first there, maybe shave and disinfest them and then send them further east.

This is a map of Poland in 1918:

Image

You can see the river Bug along the east border of the blue area and then bend inwards where "PO" of "Polska" is written.

Compare the location of the alleged death camps, Sobibor and Treblinka close to the Bug river and Belzec some kilometres off:

Image

So somewhere near Sobibor the gauge must have changed. Check also the position of Belzec between Lublin and Lvov on the second map to see that it was just on the border of Poland in 1918 as shown on the first map. But what about Treblinka?

Treblinka isn't on the border. So why would the gauge change there? This is resolved by viewing the German-Soviet demarcation line after the occupation of Poland:

Image

Thus, Russia had extended its territory along the Bug river, just to where Treblinka (or more precisely, Malkinia) is situated (at the point where the Bug river turns south; the third map looks a little distorted probably due to a different projection). If we assume Russia had changed the gauge to its own by 1942 or so, then all the main "death camps" were built exactly where the gauge changed. What a coincidence!

Today, Belzec and Sobibor are still located on the border.
http://www.skiba.nl/Poland/Poland_map1.gif
And people are still taking a break where the gauge changes: Bialystok, also situated on the border, is the main train stop on routes from Warsaw to Minsk/Riga/Wilna according to German Wikipedia.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:16 pm)

Bravo Hotzenplotz

One of the biggest Treblinka questions is "well they couldn't have produced the people who went on trial in the 60's in Germany out of a hat!" And that's true. Those people really worked at those stations. Except the Treblinka people actually probably worked at Malkinia. It's no different than Irma Grese. She really worked at Auschwitz, but the stories about her are obvious lies.

When you're on the tip of the truth, lots of random things will fall in place. Consider this passage and how it relates, though it's on a different topic. Comments in red are my comments and not part of the quote:
On the night of the 11th of May we left Moscow and traveled over Minsk and Byolostock to Malkinia where we crossed the new German border. We were put on a German train,(Significance: Malkinia was on new German border and likely where rail changed) received rationing cards, and while the train stood at the station for awhile, I had the opportunity to speak to some of the soldiers who stood around the platform.(Significance: the Polish Jews would have had time to talk also, and this is how they incorporated truth into their lies.) It was here we received the shocking news that Rudolph Hess had scrammed out of Germany and another remarkable fact was the statement of a junior officer which he made personally to me while I spoke with him. He said that it was his sincere belief that the fight with Russia would very soon start, this because a great number of German divisions were concentrated along the border. I as a person could not believe it because Hitler made the following statement during the time of the non-aggression pact with Russia: ‘This pact binds two people together which are not basically enemies, although our enemies, which are also the enemies of the Russians, wish us two people to fight so that they should gain.’

“We left Malkinia at 1 o’clock in the morning on the 13th of May. At daybreak I stood at the window of the train and noticed to my surprise the following facts: First, a great number of moving troops with tanks, guns, and all war materials; second, at very small railroad junctions they were widening the tracks,(Significance: changing of the rails in the occupied territories supports Treblinka Sobibor and Belzec as transfer stations for Jews. If the Germans were planning a Soviet attack, they would have extended their rail gauge to the border with the USSR.) adding new tracks to the main tracks, and erecting signal towers. This gave me proof that the Germans were really preparing an attack on Russia. For there was no industrial units to be seen in any of these small junctions.

SOURCE: website of Professor Joel Samaha (I found it with a google search)
Trial statement of George John Dasch. (Dasch landed on US shores via a German submarine to conduct sabotage activity but turned himself in shortly after landing.)
http://www.soc.umn.edu/~samaha/nazi_sab ... azi07.html

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:09 am)

Perhaps some or even all of the sites along rail lines identified as extermination camps were thus because of their proximity to Russia and transitional gauge but the simple reason the locations were singled out for the story or by the Germans for layovers was because there were already existing shunts.

For Treblinka the side track went to a gravel pit. For Sobibor there was tar works and for Belzec there was a side track either to store cars temporarily or put in place for a lumbering operation.

If the Germans really wanted to set up extermination camps to be convenient with rail lines, war time shortages or no, they would have laid down tracks to at least go into more remote areas.

Going by the Holocaust story it would be a matter of the Germans just setting up extermination camps almost right in the center of towns just because the shunts were already there.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:22 pm)

Interesting point TMoran. Glad you're back posting on the forum.

That would explain that complicated little point that there was the Treblinka penal/labor camp, oh, but also the Treblinka Death Camp. How convenient for the liars. Then they show the cranes for digging up bodies but the cranes are from the labor/penal camp quarry. As if 5 month old bodies wouldn't fall to pieces if scooped up by an industrial crane scooper. But that's how the holocausters work: the subject matter is either too disgusting for people to want to look at, or it's too emotionally grabbing, like Abraham Bomba mentioning people had to cut their grandmothers hair before they were gassed.

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Postby Ajax » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:41 pm)

Fascinating and wonderfully written post, Hotzenplotz! :D

I remember having a very similar discussion when I was travelling through Eastern Europe, where the subject start off with simple observations of the railway tracks when waiting for a connecting train in Sestokai, Lithuania (where like Russia the gauge is wider than in Poland).

All the existing evidence points to the 'Reinhard' camps being transit centres; this just adds further weight to that.

Bravo!
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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:10 pm)

It's funny that even the very holocaust witnesses despite themselves seem to hint at the transit camp hypothesis. Read what Raizman says about the aspect of the Treblinka station:

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Please tell us, what was the subsequent aspect of the station at Treblinka?

RAJZMAN: At first there were no signboards whatsoever at the station, but a few months later the commander of the camp, one Kurt Franz, built a first-class railroad station with signboards. The barracks where the clothing was stored had signs reading "restaurant," "ticket office," "telegraph," "telephone," and so forth. There were even train schedules for the departure and the arrival of trains to and from Grodno, Suwalki, Vienna, and Berlin.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Did I rightly understand you, Witness, that a kind of make-believe station was built with signboards and train schedules, with indications of platforms for train departures to Suwalki, and so forth?

RAJZMAN: When the persons descended from the trains, they really had the impression that they were at a very good station from where they could go to Suwalki, Vienna, Grodno, or other cities.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/02-27-46.htm

So there was a table with trains scheduled for the eastern territories. Interesting, isn't it? They build a story of lies around a true core but cannot avoid betraying themselves thereby. It's a bit like the haircut stories which are probably true but do not fit logically into the extermination story. In this case, again, Raizman probably describes what he has really seen - a table with trains scheduled for the east - but declares it an attempt at deception in order to make it fit with his mass murder accusations.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:02 pm)

And keep in mind that existing detailed records/manifests of inbound trains are said to be 'proof' of alleged gassings, but the multitudes of outbound train records/manifests, which would necessarily have been kept, are nowhere to be found.

Silly Germans did that just to incriminate themselves.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:20 am)

In the 1950s I read a book by an author who gave his name as "Bernard Newman". It was "The Captured Archives: the story of the Nazi-Soviet documents", Latimer House, London 1948. Newman wrote (p.11)

"The collapse of Germany was so complete and, in its final stages, so rapid, that many German headquarters were captured intact. In particular, the American and British armies in 1945 captured the archives of the German Foreign Office, which had been evacuated from Berlin. This was of value beyond computation - not a carefully edited and expurgated collection of documents, but the whole truth from the German viewpoint."

Newman goes on to state that some of the archives were published by the Americans during the early stages of the Cold War, to show that Stalin had been playing a double game with Britain and France in the period leading up to the Nazi-Soviet pact, but apparently the complete archive was not published. It occurs to me that there MUST have been a protocol in the Nazi-Soviet pact relating to population transfers following the division of Poland. And this protocol MUST be in American hands, since they captured the entire archive. Does anyone know if the complete archive has been published and if it mentions the transfer of Jews east of the Bug river?

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Postby Breker » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:04 am)

"The collapse of Germany was so complete and, in its final stages, so rapid, that many German headquarters were captured intact. In particular, the American and British armies in 1945 captured the archives of the German Foreign Office, which had been evacuated from Berlin. This was of value beyond computation - not a carefully edited and expurgated collection of documents, but the whole truth from the German viewpoint."

Then we should expect to see reams of documents pertaining to extermination orders, gassings, etc. But we do not.
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Postby bridgebuilder » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:07 am)

Yes, of course; except for newbies here, all that stuff goes without saying. The documentary evidence for the Holocaust is feeble in the extreme. My line, which I have presented here before, is that if there really were a Holocaust, then the Germans didn't do it. The only alternative (given the claimed figures) is that Stalin did it, as he did Katyn and then had a Russian judge complicit in mass-murder sit in the judgment seat at Nuremberg.

The possibility that Polish Jews were shunted east of the Bug (where the Soviet Organs murdered them) is thus the crucial issue in the whole story, which is why the secret protocols of the Nazi-Soviet pact are so critically important. If they are in American hands (as we know they are) AND HAVEN'T BEEN PUBLISHED then that very fact is all by itself colosally suspicious.

I'm just hoping a reader of this board in the States might be able to make some enquiries and report to us.

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Postby Johng » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:41 am)

I think you will find that your hypothesis has a number of holes in it. If you research polish railway system around 1939 in Wikipedia you will find the following.

Passenger rail connections between Soviet Union and Western Europe required change of trains. If one traveled towards Moscow, it was necessary to change at a Soviet border station Niegoreloje. If from Moscow - the change took place at a Polish station Stolpce. This town, located on the line Warsaw - Minsk - Moscow, was conveniently connected with such centers as Paris, Berlin and Calais.
First, Stolpce (stolbtsy) is near Minsk in Belarus. It would have made no sense to build transit camps spread across the old Polish border if Solpce is the main changeover town.

Secondly you assume the Russians changed the rail gauge, yet you offer no evidence for this.

Thirdly, whilst there exists detailed transport lists for the trains delivering Jews to the death camps you offer absolutely no evidence for transportation onwards to other eastern destinations (there is of course evidence for 200,000 workers transferred to Auschwitz sub-camps – Piper)

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:09 am)

I find the rail gauge debate rather inconsequential, but simply pursuing johng's points logically finds them insufficient.
It would have made no sense to build transit camps spread across the old Polish border if Solpce is the main changeover town.

And why should anyone assume that Solpce was the only changeover location? In fact, why should we believe Wikipedia about the so called 'holocaust'? They permit no opposing views on it.

Secondly you assume the Russians changed the rail gauge, yet you offer no evidence for this.

I believe it's well established that Russian trains used different gauges. Yes, no?

All that is a tempest in teapot, inconsequential as I said.

Thirdly, whilst there exists detailed transport lists for the trains delivering Jews to the death camps you offer absolutely no evidence for transportation onwards to other eastern destinations (there is of course evidence for 200,000 workers transferred to Auschwitz sub-camps – Piper)


Well yes, thank you, now we're getting somewhere. The fact that the hundreds/thousands of specific, detailed outbound train records with manifest lists are curiously missing, are damning to the absurd storyline about 'gassings' and 'extermination' camps. Silly profit making Piper tries a strawman in implying Revisionists do not know about transports to Auschwitz.

points:

We know there are plenty of detailed train transport records TO various camps, we have no such records of trains LEAVING. Why is that? There should be huge numbers of records available.

- Didn't the trains go somewhere after their trips to the alleged 'death camps'?

- Does anyone really think the Germans didn't keep records of where their trains went, full or empty?

- Would the Germans deliberately destroy their records of outbound trains while not destroying the records of inbound trains?

- So where did the detailed, specific outbound transport records go?

see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2355

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Postby Johng » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:47 am)

I agree with Hanover’s view that the rail gauge discussion is inconsequential, although I think deliberately deceptive may be more accurate. The wikipedia information is part of a history of polish railways section. I was surprised that he didn’t raise this objection to the original argument? And there is no contrary evidence offered to refute the information

The argument raised with regards transport manifest is hard to follow. Detailed transport manifests do exist for journeys to the camps. If Hanover believes these to be forgeries then he needs to have better evidence than “there are no return journey manifests”. A simple reply to this is that the manifests concern themselves with the ‘cargo’ being carried. It is not surprising that return to depot orders for empty trains are not important documents. Fully laden onward journeys would of course be documented, except such documents do not exist. If Hanover is saying these have been destroyed, where is the evidence.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:41 am)

It would seem that only Johng finds the argument about the lack of outbound trains "hard to follow". Importantly, the fact that he does not address my points is hard to ignore.

Notice that Johng resorts to strawmen, I said nothing about "forgeries", he did. In fact I openly acknowledged the existence of detailed incoming train information, Johng wants readers to ignore my words. More likely, Johng is stymied and attempts a diversion.

Notice that Johng offers no evidence that Solpce was the only changeover location.

Notice that Johng ignores the fact that Russian trains did use different gauge rails.

A simple reply to this is that the manifests concern themselves with the ‘cargo’ being carried. It is not surprising that return to depot orders for empty trains are not important documents. Fully laden onward journeys would of course be documented, except such documents do not exist. If Hanover is saying these have been destroyed, where is the evidence.

A simple reply fron Johng indeed. He has no evidence that the Jews were killed, but soldiers on.

The evidence that the records were destroyed or remain hidden is the mere fact that he cannot produce them. He tries to assert that no such outgoing records would have been kept. How bizarre in wartime for the Germans not to keep records of their trains. How bizarre for the Germans to incriminate themselves, after knowing the lies being said about them in Allied propaganda, by keeping incoming records but not out outgoing. Johng's assertions are not credible.

Notice how he tries the "not important documents" angle. Naturally he deems them "not important" as he wishes readers to ignore the fact that these manifests are curiously unavailable.

Notice he obfuscates with "return to depot orders for empty trains ...". No one is talking about return to depot orders, we're talking about the list of contents and records of hundreds/thousands of train departures. He ignores yet another point.

The fact that he cannot produce evidence for his claim of 'empty trains' has placed him in a position of not being able to support his position; even empty trains would require record keeping. Johng is an 'extermination' accuser, the onus is upon him to provide evidence. He cannot.

Again he ignored my points:
- Didn't the trains go somewhere after their trips to the alleged 'death camps'?

- Does anyone really think the Germans didn't keep records of where their trains went, full or empty?

- Would the Germans deliberately destroy their records of outbound trains while not destroying the records of inbound trains?

- So where did the detailed, specific outbound transport records go?


And even True Believers acknowledge that Jews were transported to other work camps from Auschwitz (ex: Anne Frank). Where's the outbound records for these they have reluctantly admitted were sent out of Auschwitz? Those trains were obviously not "empty". And of course, that point also tells us the Germans had nothing to hide.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the laughable absurdity of the 'holocaust' stories is the message.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:51 pm)

Here's your proof that the Soviets converted the rail lines in their part of Poland from European Standard to Russian Broad Gauge:

POLISH RAILWAYS JOINT STOCK COMPANY

http://www.pkp.pl/english/historia/1939-1944.html

5th October
The last battle of 1939 campaign near Kocko ended the military action. German call up the “German-occupied Poland” with capitol in Kraków and management of German Railway “Ostbahn” (GEDOB), which take possession of PKP property. Annexing East part of Poland to Ukraine and Belarus SRR and under management of its railway NKPS (National Commissioners Communication Routs). Establishment of railway directorate of ZSRR in Lwów, BrzeÊç i Bia?ystok. Beginning of adoption by railway line and rolling stock of PKO to broad-gauge. Soviet Union gives Wilno to Lithuania.


But, there is a hole in Hotzenplotz thesis:


22nd June
Beginning of German attacks to Soviet Union and possession of railway and rolling stock by “Ostbahn”. Possession of PKP rolling stock with broad-gauge track and back reconstruction to standard gauge. Beginning of organized sabotage of Polish resistance movement on railways.


None of the Reinhardt camps allegedly became operational until 1942. I would think that by 1942, the time of large deportations of Jews in Poland, they would have converted the rail gauge back from Russian Broad to European Standard. In fact, as part of the plan for Barbarossa, they had specialized work battalions doing exactly that.


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