Guardian "Speer knew Holocaust plan"/ Posen speech

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Guardian "Speer knew Holocaust plan"/ Posen speech

Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 12:42 am)

Letter proves Speer knew of Holocaust plan

Kate Connolly in Berlin
Tuesday March 13, 2007
The Guardian


A newly discovered letter by Adolf Hitler's architect and armaments minister Albert Speer offers proof that he knew about the plans to exterminate the Jews, despite his repeated claims to the contrary.
Writing in 1971 to Hélène Jeanty, the widow of a Belgian resistance leader, Speer admitted that he had been at a conference where Heinrich Himmler, the head of the SS and Gestapo, had unveiled plans to exterminate the Jews in what is known as the Posen speech. Speer's insistence that he had left before the end of the meeting, and had therefore known nothing about the Holocaust, probably spared him from execution after the Nuremberg trials at the end of the second world war.

It helped earn him the name of "the good Nazi" and the image of a genius architect who had misguidedly slipped into Nazi circles to further his career. Instead of facing death as many top Nazis did, Speer served 20 years in prison, mainly for using slave labour.
In the letter to Jeanty, written on December 23 1971, Speer wrote: "There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler announced on October 6 1943 that all Jews would be killed". He continued: "Who would believe me that I suppressed this, that it would have been easier to have written all of this in my memoirs?"

Speer, who died in London in 1981, denied knowing about the Holocaust in his best-selling 1969 book, Inside the Third Reich, as well as in lengthy interviews with the British author Gitta Sereny, who wrote a biography on him.

The letter is part of a collection of 100 between Speer and Mrs Jeanty, an author, written between 1971 and 1981, recently found in Britain. They are due to be auctioned at Bonhams, London, on March 27.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 20,00.html

"recently found" - why wouldn't such an important letter have been made official much earlier? After all, Speer died 26 years ago.

As for the Posen speech, it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Here is a German article:

http://www.welt.de/kultur/article756139 ... aeude.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 8:55 am)

In the letter to Jeanty, written on December 23 1971, Speer wrote: "There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler announced on October 6 1943 that all Jews would be killed". He continued: "Who would believe me that I suppressed this, that it would have been easier to have written all of this in my memoirs?"

I note that Speer does not retract his claim that he left early, a war was on and he was a very busy man.

Speer is simply reciting what the gullible public and himself have been forced to swallow about this questionable speech. He does not quote Himmler, not one sentence.

I would like to see the context of his statements. Any reply to questions put to him in a previous communication about the Posen speech would mandate that Speer regurgiate the standard propgaganda. Failure to do so could have had very negative effects on Speer.

I would certainly like to see the entirety of this 'letter'.

To claim that Himmler announced that all Jews would be killed flies in the face of the speech text.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 10:56 am)

see:
'Posen speech'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=372

from that thread:
Some points on Posen:

- This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://www.codoh.com/trials/tristagch2.html

- There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.

- Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of thousands. Frankly the assertions about it are laughable.

- Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.

- members of the audience like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger denied that Himmler was talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.

- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.

- In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.

- the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions

- the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made

Like so much else about this so called holocau$t, the Posen speech when scrutinized doesn't hold up.

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Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 9:13 pm)

This is a bombshell on Revisionists. No retraction seems necessary. Speer's words say everything - "There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler announced on October 6 1943 that all Jews would be killed". This is the biggest news on this site in a very long time ...
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 9:29 pm)

semblance7 wrote:This is a bombshell on Revisionists. No retraction seems necessary. Speer's words say everything - "There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler announced on October 6 1943 that all Jews would be killed". This is the biggest news on this site in a very long time ...

Huh? If that's a bombshell, then the total lack of mass graves as alleged is a nuclear explosion.

And why hasn't semblance7 addressed all the points I made about the 'letter' and the Posen text? Please do so, semblance7.

Why hasn't this 'letter' from Speer been reproduced for everyone to see? How do we know that it is a correct quote? What are they hiding?

What has Speer ever said about the alleged 'gas chambers'?

And then, we get down to it. Semblance7 cannot explain to us how the alleged 'gas chambers', as alleged, functioned. Does he realize that as alleged, they defy laws of science and rational thought?

I challenge semblance7 to debate these issues and all in regards to the so called 'holocaust'. Will he do it?

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Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 9:37 pm)

Hannover, you're dancing.

I am speaking to the quote (one topic per thread?). Indeed, it would be interesting to see it in context but it is massively important. Think of it - Speer, a (then) free but old man intimating to a friend, privately, that he was indeed present and acknowleges that all Jews were to be killed. Doesn't get much clearer.

I urge you to speak to the point, Hannover. Fascinating!
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 9:48 pm)

semblance7, you're dodging.

I made very specific points about the Guardian piece, and in case you missed it, Posen is the central issue. You dodged them, why?

Here they are again:
I note that Speer does not retract his claim that he left early, a war was on and he was a very busy man.

Speer is simply reciting what the gullible public and himself have been forced to swallow about this questionable speech. He does not quote Himmler, not one sentence.

I would like to see the context of his statements. Any reply to questions put to him in a previous communication about the Posen speech would mandate that Speer regurgiate the standard propgaganda. Failure to do so could have had very negative effects on Speer.

I would certainly like to see the entirety of this 'letter'.

To claim that Himmler announced that all Jews would be killed flies in the face of the speech text.

Why hasn't this 'letter' from Speer been reproduced for everyone to see? How do we know that it is a correct quote? What are they hiding?

Now, must I repeat the damning facts about the Posen speech which you ignored?

Let's debate, semblance7.

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Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 10:07 pm)

I note that Speer does not retract his claim that he left early, a war was on and he was a very busy man.


His statement is a retraction in and of itself. War was on? A busy man? (dancing)

Speer is simply reciting what the gullible public and himself have been forced to swallow about this questionable speech. He does not quote Himmler, not one sentence.


Reciting? Reciting what? Quoting Himmler? He is telling a friend, quite clearly, what really happened.


I would certainly like to see the entirety of this 'letter'.


Me too (as would all the members here)

To claim that Himmler announced that all Jews would be killed flies in the face of the speech text.


Speer's not 'claiming' anything. He's paraphrasing, yet very definitively, what was said in the speech.

So there you go - point for point :D
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Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 10:21 pm)

The auction here - http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.s ... leNo=15230

Having read the context I must say Speer could be interpreted in many different ways.

" Speer tells Jeanty that this is going to be a very difficult letter, one of the most serious of his life. After assuring her that he has just read with enormous emotion her La Peine de Vivre, and that during the days he was reading it she continued to speak to him, and that their two days together were so good for him that he felt better, stronger and calmer, he then tells her that he received some news just before her departure that upset him deeply. For some time he held out hopes that this news would not be true. He asked the Federal Archives in Koblenz to check it for him. But there can be no doubt: he was present when Hitler announced on 6 October 1943 that all Jews would be killed"

Site makes clear that Himmler was intended - not Hitler

This seems strange though - in effect Speer is simply saying he was 'there' and nothing more. My impression is 'for whatever reason' Speer took many truths, whether 'subconscious' or no, to the grave.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 11:41 pm)

semblance7 wrote:
I note that Speer does not retract his claim that he left early, a war was on and he was a very busy man.

His statement is a retraction in and of itself. War was on? A busy man? (dancing)
Speer is simply reciting what the gullible public and himself have been forced to swallow about this questionable speech. He does not quote Himmler, not one sentence.

Reciting? Reciting what? Quoting Himmler? He is telling a friend, quite clearly, what really happened.
I would certainly like to see the entirety of this 'letter'.

Me too (as would all the members here)
To claim that Himmler announced that all Jews would be killed flies in the face of the speech text.

Speer's not 'claiming' anything. He's paraphrasing, yet very definitively, what was said in the speech.
So there you go - point for point :D

Point for point? Not quite, follow along.

- Where does he say he didn't leave early? (dodging)

- Himmler's text does not say anything about killing all the Jews. (dodging) If you think so, then tell us where. Confirmed members of the audience, like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger, stated that Himmler was not talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.
Speer is simply reciting what was/is the standard unsupportable beliefs about the Posen speech, he does not quote Himmler even once. In fact, you cannot show me where he ever quoted specific text from Posen in any of his writings?

And since this thread is about Posen, I challenge you to address these points:

1 - This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://www.codoh.com/trials/tristagch2.html

2 - There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.

3 - Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of a throng of people.

4 - Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.

5 - Confirmed members of the audience, like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger, stated that Himmler was not talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.

6 - Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.

7 - In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.

8 - the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions

9 - the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made

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Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed May 30, 2007 11:52 pm)

Hannover, to catch up, please see/read the bonhams link, previous post. I'm sure your points 1 through 9 have been completely and thoroughly covered in other threads. This thread is about Speer's letter (or at least that's what the initial news article is about.) Having read the auction lot description (of the actual letter) I have more questions than answers ...
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Postby Moderator3 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu May 31, 2007 12:06 am)

semblance 7:
Speer's referal to the Posen speech in the letter is supposedly a big deal because of what Himmler allegedly said in the speech. The speech content is necessarily very much part of this thread. Please respond to the points on the Posen speech. And cool it with your flippancy.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu May 31, 2007 12:33 am)

From semblance 7's Bonham's link, thanks:
http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.s ... leNo=15230
The often febrile tone of Jeanty's correspondence with Speer is set by the latter's letter of 23 December 1971, written soon after their first meeting. Here Speer acknowledges that he must indeed have been present at the Posen Conference of 6 October 1943 (at which Himmler explicitly announced the Final Solution with the words 'I also want to refer here very frankly to a very difficult matter. We can now very openly talk about this among ourselves, and yet we will never discuss this publicly... I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish people').

But that is not what Himmler actually said. Himmler's German word was 'ausrottung' / uprooting, not "extermination". Furthermore, and unfortunately for semblance7's position, we have this relevant quote:
In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.

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Postby semblance7 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu May 31, 2007 1:09 am)

You forgot the last part -

Related Quote LA Times 4/17/1993

"Wolfe said a more precise translation would be "extirpation" or "tearing up by the roots." In his handwritten notes, Himmler used a euphemism, "Judenevakuierung" or "evacuation of the Jews." But archives officials said "extermination" is the word he actually spoke--preserved on an audiotape in the archives."
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu May 31, 2007 1:23 am)

semblance7 wrote:You forgot the last part -

Related Quote LA Times 4/17/1993

"Wolfe said a more precise translation would be "extirpation" or "tearing up by the roots." In his handwritten notes, Himmler used a euphemism, "Judenevakuierung" or "evacuation of the Jews." But archives officials said "extermination" is the word he actually spoke--preserved on an audiotape in the archives."

Nope, you forgot:
- Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.

In the text of his speech, Himmler talks of being "a page of glory in our history which has never been written and shall never be written". But then we're told it was recorded.

And still semblance7 dodges:
1 - This alleged speech, as German judge Staeglich has adroitly pointed out, is a hodgepodge of non-sequitors, nonsense, and re-worked text.
see: http://www.codoh.com/trials/tristagch2.html

2 - There are missing pages, retyped pages by different hands, even repaginated.

3 - Then we have a so called "secret" speech in front of a throng of people.

4 - Yivo (Yiddish Scientific Institute) of New York was very active in the Rosenberg Ministry to process documents for submittal to the Nuremberg trials.

5 - Confirmed members of the audience, like SS-OGruF Gottlob Berger, stated that Himmler was not talking about the extermination of the Jews at all.

6 - Also questionable is the alleged tape recording of the speech. To have a speech with such alleged secret content recorded on tape? Right. SS General Berger did not recognize Himmler’s voice listening to the tape.

7 - In 1993, Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records at the National Archives admitted that a more precise translation of 'ausrottung' would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots. Wolfe also pointed out that in Himmler's handwritten notes for the speech, that Himmler used the term, 'judenevakuierung', or evacuation of the Jews, not 'extermination'.

8 - the complete lack of physical evidence to support the false assertions

9 - the complete lack of orders for the assumptions being made

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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