Anybody know what tin sheets were used for?

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Laurentz Dahl
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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:33 am)

Does anyone here have access to the German original of Kogon et al's Nationalsozialistiche Massentötungen durch Giftgas? I would like to know if the German official translation of Kozak's testimony quoted on p. 152-153 has quotation marks surrounding the word Bad.

Is the following an exact quote from the same book (p. 152)?

Wir bauten Baracken in der Nähe des Abzweiggleises der Bahnlinie. Eine Baracke, nahe der Bahn, war 50 m lang und 12,5 m breit. Eine zweite Baracke, 25 m lang und 12,5 m breit, war für die Juden bestimmt, für das “Bad“. Nicht weit entfernt von dieser Baracke bauten wir eine dritte, 12 m lang und 8 m breit. Diese Baracke wurde mit hölzernen Wänden unterteilt in drei Gaskammern, so dass jede Gaskammer 4 m breit und 8 m lang war. Die Höhe betrug 2 m. Die Innenwände dieser Baracke bestanden aus doppelten Wänden, deren Zwischenraum mit Sand gefüllt war und die mit Pappe und Zinkblechen bis 1,10 m Höhe verkleidet waren.

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Postby Vlad » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:20 am)

No, it isn't. The original reads:
Eine Baracke, die gleich am Gleis stand, war 50 m lang und 12,5 m breit. Es sollte ein Warteraum für die im Lager zu beschäftigenden Juden sein. Die zweite Baracke, die 25 m lang und 12,5 m breit war, sollte für die Juden bestimmt sein, die ins Bad gingen.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:40 pm)

Vlad wrote:No, it isn't. The original reads:
Eine Baracke, die gleich am Gleis stand, war 50 m lang und 12,5 m breit. Es sollte ein Warteraum für die im Lager zu beschäftigenden Juden sein. Die zweite Baracke, die 25 m lang und 12,5 m breit war, sollte für die Juden bestimmt sein, die ins Bad gingen.


Thanks a lot!

I found the German text quoted in my previous posting at deathcamp.org The problem with that site is that they most often don't provide exact references, but merely a bibliography at the bottom of the page.

http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/belzec_de.html

I also need to find the original Polish text. It appears to have been quoted an article by Eugeniusz Szrojt, "“Obóz zaglady w Belzcu", published in Biuletyn Glównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Niemieckich w Polsce, vol. III 1947. Perhaps it can be found online somewhere.

Edit: I found it. The testimony quoted in part can be read online at the official website of the Belzec Museum. Unfortunately I don't understand Polish well enough to make an expert translation.

http://www.belzec.org.pl/historia.php?site=budowa&id=1

Since this forum cannot reproduce Polish characters I will not quote the full text here. The two sentences I need to have translated are (with the Polish characters "normalized"):

Miala to byc poczekalnia dla Zydow, ktorzy beda zatrudnieni w obozie. Drugi barak 25 m dlugosci i 12,5 m szerokosci mial byc przeznaczony dla Zydów, którzy beda szli do lazni.


If there is any native (or expert) Polish speaker at this forum who would like to assist me with an annotated translation of those two sentences, please drop me a pm.

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Postby Vlad » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:37 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:If there is any native (or expert) Polish speaker at this forum who would like to assist me with an annotated translation of those two sentences, please drop me a pm.

Can you write a pm? I can't.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:41 am)

Vlad wrote:
Laurentz Dahl wrote:If there is any native (or expert) Polish speaker at this forum who would like to assist me with an annotated translation of those two sentences, please drop me a pm.

Can you write a pm? I can't.

Yes you can, try it.
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Postby Vlad » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:54 am)

Thanks!

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:32 pm)

Translation from the Polish:
It should be a waiting room for the Jews who were to be employed in the camp. A second hut of 25 m length and 12,5 m width should be for those Jews who would go to the bath.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:01 pm)

joachim neander wrote:Translation from the Polish:
It should be a waiting room for the Jews who were to be employed in the camp. A second hut of 25 m length and 12,5 m width should be for those Jews who would go to the bath.


Thank you very much!

I tried to make a translation myself and it turned out similar but I am still too weak on the grammar to be sure of the exact meaning.

Perhaps if you have time left over you could help out with another text. It is an information board supposedly found at Belzec which is now in the collections of the Regional Museum of Tomaszow Lubelski.

Andrzej Kola writes about it:

Regional Museum in Tomaszow Lubelski is an owner of an original information board (found once in Bclzcc) for Jews brought to the camp, with the inscription: "Attention: Complete clothing deposition. All personal belongings except money, jewellery, documents and certificates must be left on the ground (... ) Money, jewellery and documents must be
kept until being deposited at the window. Shoes must be collected and tied in pairs and put in an indicated place. The complete undressed must be taken to bath and inhalation".


The problem with the English language edition of Kola's book (frankly I don't know if there's a Polish edition) is that it is rather clumsily translated (despite being published in cooperation with the USHMM) and has lots of apparent translation mistakes.

What caught my interest is that the Holocaust Research Project website (H.E.A.R.T.) contradict Kola and claim that the signboard is from the previous Gypsy camp which was I believe located closer to the Belzec railway station where there is a large open field (visible in the background of some photos of this camp). According to H.E.A.R.T. the text on the board reads in part in translation:

All belongings must be handed in at the counter except for money, documents and other valuables, which you must keep with you.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... gypsy.html

So in the Kola translation, all personal belongings except money, jewellery, documents, and certificates must be left on the ground, while the mentioned items should be kept until deposited at the window.

According to the H.E.A.R.T. translation on the other hand it is all items that are not "money, documents and other valuables" that should be handed in at the counter - not left on the ground.

Which translation is correct? Some words on the board are unfortunately unreadable.

Image

Best regards,

Laurentz

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:36 pm)

I'll try to translate as exactly as possible, though it may sound awkward for the ears of a native speaker of English:
"Attention! Complete deposition of clothes. All objects carried with you, with the exception of money, valuables, identity papers, and ??? , must be left at a/the place [of?] ??? . Money, valuables, and identity papers must be kept with you until their delivering at the counter, and they may not be let out of one's hands. Shoes must be bound together in pairs and deposited at the designated place. Only totally undressed persons are entitled to bathing and inhalation."
There are two words that I cannot read with all the will - I marked them with ??? . "Rzeczy wartosciowe" are not only "jewellery," they included e.g. watches, fountain pens, cufflinks, medals etc. - I therefore translated the words with "valuables." "Okienko" is not a "window," it designates a "counter," e.g. in a post office, a bank, a train station, or an airport. "Dokumenty" are all papers identifying a person, such as passports, kennkarten, etc. If I by chance will get an idea what the illegible words could mean, I'll send an "add-on."
Please feel free to ask me, if something is not clear.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:08 pm)

Thank you very much again Mr. Neander!

I find it very strange that H.E.A.R.T. believes the sign to be an artifact from the Gypsy camp. According to the testimonies I have read regarding that camp and judging from the surviving photos, it merely consisted of a barn, a fence, and a number of tents. No-one speaks of any disinfection taking place and there are no claims that Gypsies were exterminated at Belzec in 1940 or 1941. Also, weren't most Polish Gypsies illiterates?

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:58 am)

I'm neither an expert on Belzec nor on Gypsies. But I would make a big question mark behind the claim that the table came from a Gypsy camp. As far as I know, Polish Gypsies, indeed, were mostly illiterate. On the other hand, this fact would not have hindered the Germans to make a written announcement. Somebody would have been able to read it and tell the others who couldn't read. And kapos or prison guards would have "helped" with their clubs. More information about the table seems to be necessary.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:33 am)

Remains the fact that there is no mention of bathing and disinfestation installations in any descriptions of the Gypsy camp, nor any visible in the known photos.

Most if not all of the presented Belzec objects from the Tomaszow Lubelski Museum collections (and I suspect some of them may have been transferred to the Belzec Museum since Kola wrote his report) seems to have very obscure origins. No mention is made by Kola where the sign was actually found.

Another case: the photos of guard huts and "sorting barracks" at Belzec, including photos of Kurt Franz and Rudolf Kamm. Where were those photos found? Who took them? (Since they are in the possessions of the Tomaszow Lubelski Museum Archive they were most likely not part of the (itself rather mysterious) Kurt Franz album).

And yet another mystery item. Go to

http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/photos.html

and scroll down about two-thirds. There is a photo with the caption "Gassing pipe used in the Belzec gas chambers." I have never seen this alleged gaschamber artifact mentioned in any writing on Belzec. Who found it? When? How was it determined, and by whom, that it was part of the (alleged) homicidal gassing installation? Any poster with knowledge of mechanics that could shed any light on what we are looking at in the photo?

On an unrelated note: Mr. Neander, do you know if there has ever been any documentation published on the drillings/excavation that Kola is reported to have carried out at Sobibor in 2004?

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:27 pm)

Sorry, Mr. Dahl, I did not study Sobibor. I only researched a little bit the "Treblinka gold rush" from 1944 to 1950. Two Polish (non-Jewish) journalists wrote an article about it that appeared in the Polish newspaper "Gazeta Wyborcza" in the beginning of this year. I translated it into German and Roberto Muehlenkamp into English. It can be found at the RODOH Web site under "Documents." The article deals with illegal excavations made by local people and members of the nearby Soviet garrison in search of gold and precious stones. BTW, similar "excavations" took place at Auschwitz, but they were quickly suppressed by the local Polish authorities. At Treblinka, the authorities turned a blind eye on the "excavations," most probably after having received their share of the "findings." In every respect, a disgusting story.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:57 pm)

joachim neander wrote:Two Polish (non-Jewish) journalists wrote an article about it that appeared in the Polish newspaper "Gazeta Wyborcza" in the beginning of this year. I translated it into German and Roberto Muehlenkamp into English. It can be found at the shills Web site under "Documents." The article deals with illegal excavations made by local people and members of the nearby Soviet garrison in search of gold and precious stones. BTW, similar "excavations" took place at Auschwitz, but they were quickly suppressed by the local Polish authorities. At Treblinka, the authorities turned a blind eye on the "excavations," most probably after having received their share of the "findings." In every respect, a disgusting story.

How convenient, but absurd, this story is.

What are these 'journalists' sources?

They claim that there were 'illegal' excavations, yet all too conveniently these alleged 'excavations' were not documented by official Polish sources, since they supposedly "turned a blind eye". On the contrary, making the alleged finds known and visible at the time would have been a bonanza to the propaganda ... IF the 900,000 Jews tale was true.

This is hardly credible evidence for a desperate cover story whose intent is to claim that the alleged mass grave for an alleged 900,000 Jews at Treblinka (10 X The Rose Bowl) cannot be found because there were 'illegal' excavations. Only with the 'holocaust' can people get away with this junk.

I should also note that any mass grave, especially one of the size alleged at Treblinka, would still, today, leave a massive, easily detected footprint. 'illegal excavations' or not.

The liars have not and cannot show us the alleged mass grave for the alleged 900,000 Jews at Treblinka.

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:37 pm)

I gave you the reference where you can find the translations of the article into German and English as well as a link to the original Polish version. It is certainly interesting to discuss the contents of the article, but one should have read it before. By the way, someone changed the reference that I gave in my post to a word that is not in my dictionary. Please explain, why.


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