Katyn challenge

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SergeyRomanov
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Katyn challenge

Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 03, 2003 1:58 pm)

<Revisionist mode on>
Rarely you will find a Revisionist who hasn't made a claim that since Soviets introduced fraudulent Katyn report and witnesses at Nuremberg, any evdence coming from Soviets is tainted.

But have those Revisionists actually studied the Katyn case? Or are they parroting the claims of conformist historians?

Let's check it out.

Here's my challenge to Revisionists: prove beyond the reasonable doubt that Soviets murdered Poles from Kozelskij, Starobelskij and Ostashkovskij camps in Katyn forest and elsewhere.

But before you rush to cite your sources, look at them through your usual Revisionist Spectacles.

That is, the following will not be considered as evidence:

- any Nazi reports; we wouldn't use Soviet evidence against Nazis, so it is only logical not to use Nazi evidence against Soviets;

- any eyewitness testimonies; we, Revisionists, have proven that eyewitness testimony is completely unreliable;

- any confessions by perpetrators; we know how easily those can be extracted;

- any unauthenticated documents; that is, unless it is proven that document is authentic, it will be considered an anti-Soviet forgery;

If Revisionists will not respond to my challenge, they will show that they're True Conformist Believers, not unlike those Holohoaxers.
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:16 pm)

Can I ask you what Mikhail Gorbachev's objectives were, when he acknowledged the Soviet Union's responsibility in 1990 ?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:06 pm)

Not to mention the mass exhumation of bodies which confirm the Communist Soviet guilt.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:46 pm)

<Revisionist mode on>

Can I ask you what Mikhail Gorbachev's objectives were, when he acknowledged the Soviet Union's responsibility in 1990 ?


Yes, you can.

I guess he wanted to discredit Stalin once more and to prepare the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He turned out to be traitor, you know, hence nothing coming from Gorby about USSR should be trusted. If you don't believe in Germany's taking of responsibility for the Holohoax, you shouldn't take Gorby's word too seriously. Anyway, if you have no evidence except for Gorby's word, you're in big trouble :evil:

Not to mention the mass exhumation of bodies which confirm the Communist Soviet guilt.


That's not true, of course. The only thing the exhumation proves is that there are bodies.

So? No takers?
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:02 pm)

Oh please Sergey, there is nothing in the Katyn episode which defies laws of science and logic such as the absurd, impossible as alleged 'holocau$t' stories. You're grasping at straws my dear boy.

Here are many, many photos of the exhumation & forensic study site at Katyn.....you'll never see something like this for alleged 'holocau$t' sites:

http://www.katyn.org.au/naziphotos.html

for more see:
http://www.katyn.org.au/memorials.html

Stalin order:
Image
see the entire document here:
http://katyn.codis.ru/fberia.htm

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:47 am)

Montague & SergeyRomanov,

I recommend you re-read the guidelines, no namecalling. I have deleted your offending posts accordingly.

SergeyRomanov,
You have become silly with your irrational rants. Please cease. It is not for you to set the boundaries of what those that oppse your beliefs can state on their behave. Points made that oppose your view that the Germans were responsible for Katyn have been made, but you have refused to offer any rational, specific responses. I would imagine that even those who support your beliefs in the so called 'holocaust' as it is alleged are taken aback by your behavior on this issue. Please present specific rebuttals to the specific points made or leave this thread.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:37 am)

Germany's guilt was imposed on them at the Nuremburg show trials. Remember they were never allowed to produce evidence to the defend themselves. They are now a people without an opinion, who live under virtual siege, and are confined by draconian laws of suppression.

To suggest Gorbachev's admission was similar to Germany's is nonsense and you know it.

There are many in Germany who would like to speak up, and they do in private. But in public it is classed as a crime, for which serious consequences await the offender.

Gorbachev's situation was in no way the same as the Germans.

When Gorbachev admitted Russian guilt, and that Stalin was a liar. One has to seriously wonder what else stalin has lied about !


The only thing the exhumation proves is that there are bodies.


More than can be said about the Holohoax Industry.


As David Irving reveals in Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich. The former NKVD officer Petr Soprunenko, who signed the Katyn death warrant, lives in Moscow as an old age pensioner (1994).


No nuremburg show trial for him I see !

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:33 am)

<Revisionist mode on>
Oh please Sergey, there is nothing in the Katyn episode which defies laws of science and logic such as the absurd, impossible as alleged 'holocau$t' stories.


I might say something about that later, but first let's see some evidence.

Stalin order


Ah, how convenient! These "documents", including the "order", appeared in 1992 - just in time for the KPSS (CPSU) trial! How convenient! Sorry, I don't swallow it. Don't forget - I don't accept "any unauthenticated documents; that is, unless it is proven that document is authentic, it will be considered an anti-Soviet forgery".

http://www.katyn.org.au/memorials.html


How sweet! I guess Holohoax memorials prove that there was the Holohoax!

http://www.katyn.org.au/naziphotos.html


They're Nazi photos. No Nazi evidence will be accepted. Besides, what do the photos prove, except that there are bodies?

By the way, explain the German "Walthers" and bullets. NKVD never used those. So it is the direct evidence of Germans' guilt.

Red Army raped 2 million German and Eastern European girls and women


Is there any evidence for this and other claims? None? Oops!

And still not a shred of reliable evidence that Soviets killed those Poles!


You have become silly with your irrational rants.


Yep, I'm a good student :)

Points made that oppose your view that the Germans were responsible for Katyn have been made, but you have refused to offer any rational, specific responses.


I responded to each point. Perhaps you did not like that I used Revisionist Method in my responses? :)

Please present specific rebuttals to the specific points made or leave this thread.


See above.

To suggest Gorbachev's admission was similar to Germany's is nonsense and you know it.


1) Gorby's admission is not a historical evidence.

2) Gorby, Jakovlev et al. are anti-Communist traitors. They would gladly forge documents to discredit Stalin and USSR.

They are now a people without an opinion, who live under virtual siege, and are confined by draconian laws of suppression.


So are the NKVD people. That's why they "confessed". It's easy to make an old man with a family confess.

More than can be said about the Holohoax Industry.


Indeed. But if the question is "Who's guilty", the existence of bodies becomes irrelevant. Prove that it were Soviets.

As David Irving reveals in Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich. The former NKVD officer Petr Soprunenko, who signed the Katyn death warrant, lives in Moscow as an old age pensioner (1994).


No nuremburg show trial for him I see !


Of course! He made the much needed "confession" and FSB left him alone.

Wow? Still no evidence for Soviet Katyn Massacre?

Here's more evidence that the whole "Katyn case" is anti-Soviet fraud:

1) The fake "Tartakow report", cited by FitzGibbon in JHR.

L.F. Raikhman, when interviewed by A. Abarinov, said that the document is fake (see Abarinov's book "Katynskij labirint").

Here's an excerpt from the "report":

Under the above -- mentioned Order the camp at Kozielsk was liquidated first of all by the security forces of the Minsk headquarters of the NKVD in the area of the city of Smolensk during the period between 1 March and 3 May of that year. As security forces, territorial troops, in part from the 190th Rifle Regiment, were employed.


Huh? What does Belorussian NKVD has to do with the alleged execution of Poles near Russian city of Smolensk?!

The Second action under the above Order was carried out in the area of the town of Bologoye by the security forces of the Smolensk headquarters of the NKVD...


Why Smolensk NKVD is shooting Poles not near Smolensk, but near Bologoje, which is in Kalininskaja (now Tverskaja) oblast?!

Thus the "document" is an obvious fake.

Anyway, now "historians" claim that the Poles were killed in Kalinin and Kharkov, not in Bologoye and Dergachi.

2) The place of the alleged murder:

Look here: http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publicat ... ozier.html

There the matter lay?until March 3, 1959, when Aleksandr Shelepin, then head of the KGB, gave full details in a secret memo to Krushchev of the numbers executed. The total was 21,857 killed:
4,421 in the Katyn Forest (Smolensk region)
3,820 in the Starobelsk camp (near Kharkov)
6,311 in the Ostashkovo camp (Kalinin region)
7,305 in other camps and prisons in western Ukraine and western Belorussia


So, were the Poles killed in Katyn Forest-Bologoje-Dergachi? Or is it Katyn Forest-Ostashkovskij camp-Starobelskij camp? Or is it Katyn Forest-Kalinin-Kharkov (as the official version states)?

Or maybe they were drowned in the White Sea?

CWP:

what a pity to have shot 15,000 Polish officers (actually, half of them were loaded onto barges and drowned in the White Sea), instead of 15,000 Jews


Barnes Review:

Six thousand Polish captives from Ostashkov and Starobielsk were transported to the Ukrainian town of Dergachi near Kharkov and executed in a similar way as in Katyn. Others were relocated to the coast of White Sea, placed on board two vessels and sunk in the icy waters.


Report no. 2505 82nd Congress concerning the Katyn forest massacre:

Evidence heard by this committee repeatedly points to the certainty that only those prisoners interned at Kozielsk were massacred in the Katyn Forest. Testimony of the Polish Red Cross officials definitely established that 4,143 bodies were actually exhumed from the seven mass graves. On the basis of further evidence, we are equally certain that the rest of the 15,000 Polish officers-those interned at Starobielsk and Ostashkov-were executed in a similar brutal manner. Those from Starobielsk were disposed of near Kharkov, and those from Ostashkov met a similar fate. Testimony was presented by several witnesses that the Ostashkov prisoners were placed on barges and drowned in the White Sea. Thus the committee believes that there are at least two other ?Katyns? in Russia.


Other testimony strongly supports the theory that the Ostashkov prisoners were drowned in the White Sea.


etc. etc. etc.

OR were they drowned in the Barents Sea?

Evidence of how the Soviets disposed of some of the 14,000 Polish officers and men who disappeared in Russia in 1940 has just come to light in London in the papers of a Polish officer who served in Russia. It reveals that 2,000 officers were taken to the far north of Russia and drowned in the Barents Sea. More than 4,000 of the Poles are known to have been executed at Katyn in May and June, 1940. But the fate of more than 10,000 who had been held in camps at Ostashkov and Starobielsk has never been firmly established. But now L. Michel, who now lives in west London, has produced the text of a message from one of the victims which was found floating in a bottle by a Norwegian fisherman in Kirkenes in 1940. The fisherman handed the bottle over to the commander of the German unit in Kirkenes, who sent it to German headquarters in Oslo. There it was translated from Polish by a Pole serving in the German army, a Sgt. Kempa. Kempa was later taken prisoner by the British. The letter, signed by Lt. Leonard Kordecki, read as follows...


Forged "reports", bogus "testimony" - what's more is needed to admit that Soviet guilt is not proven?
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:55 pm)

So Sergey, what about the Stalin order document is a forgery to you? Be specific. It was signed by Stalin, Beria, and members of the Soviet Communist Politburo.

It was Yeltsin who released the damning documents to the Poles.

Right, a 'memorial' proves nothing, agreed.

There were many, many international observers at the exhumation and forensic study site. No such exhumation / forensic site study has produced such evidence for alleged 'holocaust' sites...none and you can't show us any.

The photos are: in situ, verified as to location, witnessed by international observers (obsevers shown in the photos....none of them have refuted the German findings), verifiable as to date, distributed widely.

Aerial photography has contributed significantly to the establishment of certain facts. Over-flies by the Luftwaffe quite clearly demonstrate that the substantial disturbances of the earth's surface, which would subsequently be determined to be some of the burial sites, pre-date the German advance into the area.
- Aerial Photography and the Katyn Forest Massacre
Frank Fox, West Chester Univ of Pennsylvania, 1999
ISBN 1887732136


No documents, letters, or postcards with dates beyond the 1940 Communist execution date were carried, received by relatives or friends of the Polish officers, or issued to the officers. Show me any such correspondence or paper trail beyond the 1940 date, you cannot.

For further confirmation of such commonplace mass murders by the Communists, in January 2000, Russia's president-elect Vladimir Putin telephoned Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski to inform him of the discovery of a mass grave that contained the bodies of Poles murdered by Soviet forces during the war.

A U.S. Congressional Commission of Inquiry into Katyn in 1951-52 determined the victims had been killed between March and May 1940, i.e., when the territory was under Soviet control. Proof of the date included, in addition to a few eye-witness accounts:

(a) letters, postcards and newspapers found on the bodies
(b) the winter clothes of the some of the victims
(c) the fact that the trees covering the graves had been transplanted there in spring 1940.
(d) while the bullets used to shoot the victims in the back of the head were German-made, they had been exported to Russia before 1933.
(e) the rope with which the victims's hands were tied behind their backs (when not tied with wire), was made in Russia.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:07 pm)

the existence of bodies becomes irrelevant.



When there are no bodies (or remains) from the supposed collosal numbers of holohoax industry victims. That is irrelevant.

When there are many remains from Zionist commisar murders, that is irrelevant too !

Christ you can't win with these holohoax industry people.


Over-flies by the Luftwaffe quite clearly demonstrate that the substantial disturbances of the earth's surface,


Obviously the Zionist cxommisars did not know how to rebuild the earth's surface, to conceal the evidence like the clever Germans.

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Postby montague » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 04, 2003 6:14 pm)

I didn't get to read Sergey's response to my 'name-calling' post (name-calling? I only called him a neo-Stalinist!). My intention wasn't to bait him, but to find out what makes him - and fellows like him - tick. I'm curious about today's Russians and want to win them over to our cause. Russia will be a very useful ally of Europe in the future, once Europe has thrown off the American yoke....

At any rate, I can't 'prove' that the Red Army raped 2 million women and girls. (No forensic examinations back in those days). I can't 'prove' that the Russian Revolution occurred either! Or that anyone died in the gulags. Or in Katyn wood, for that matter.

This is an abstract point brought up by Butz, but a relevant one: historical events - like the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo, or WWII itself - don't need to be 'proven'. If a historical event of that magnitude has occurred, we all know about it, and so there is no need to 'prove' it.

The thing that makes the Holocaust different is that Exterminationists have tried to prove it, in court, after the fact. When, really, if a slaughter of that magnitude had occurred, in the middle of Europe, everyone in Europe would have known about it at the time: Germans, Poles, the Allies, the Red Cross (who made inspections of the "death camps") and the Jews themselves. This is something that puzzles Exterminationists: why no-one who was sympathetic to the Jewish cause, including the Jews themselves, moved to act against the Germans, or even talk about what was going on...

Another point: one of the reasons we know about the women and girls raped by the Red Army is that so many of the women - and the families - affected lived to tell about it. (Even though, in the West, the mass rapes are hushed up by our historians, who don't want anyone to feel pity for the Germans, or disdain for the Red Army).

On the other hand, one of the reasons we about the Jews killed by the Nazis in Auschwitz is that so many of the Jews killed there lived to tell about it. The Holocaust is self-contradictory.

Rupert.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:27 pm)

Sergey,

That's it, you're done with this thread.

Your attempt to compare the complete lack of physical forensic evidence for what is alleged in the holocaust story with the massive physical forensic evidence for the events at Katyn is absurd. I tried to facilitate your curious efforts in the name of open debate, but your endless rants have forced my hand.

I have left your salient points for our readers perusal.

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