Fatal Flaw in Holocaust Denial by Peter Myers

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Fatal Flaw in Holocaust Denial by Peter Myers

Postby Flavian Greece » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:32 pm)

The full version is here:

http://mailstar.net/holocaust-denial.html

The question he puts up is this:

(1) Fatal Flaw in Holocaust Denial - Peter Myers, February 6, 2009

Over the years, I have put out material by Deniers from time to time, especially given the anti-Zionist position common to both Far Left and Far Right.

In balance, I put out large chunks of The Black Book of Communism, and the complete text of Otto Strasser's books exposing Hitler.

That does not mean that I support the status quo; far from it. It means that both of these two alternatives (Soviet & Nazi) were totalitarian.

The anti-Zionist movement seems to be drifing towards Holocaust-Denial, in the sense that I get quite a few emails from a Denialist perspective, and relatively few the other way. Barring the Zionists, of course (but they're not on my mailing list, and anyway I get few emails from them).

For years I was too busy, or perhaps just not interested enough, to tackle this issue. The constant media bombardment about "The Holocaust" bored me to tears; it would put anybody off the topic, just as one avoids nagging if one can.

Some Deniers had been urging me to get into it, but I kept postponing my reading of their material.

In the last month, that's all changed; I can hardly remember how I got started, but I've becpme an avid reader. However, I've spotted a fatal flaw in the Denier material; and since that realization, I've been tracking down quality material on the anti-Denier position.

In the next few weeks, I will make this a major theme of these bulletins.

The fatal flaw of the Deniers concerns the "Final Solution" to the Jewish Problem. The Deniers say that, instead of this meaning Extermination, it meant Resettlement in the East. That is, east of Poland. Not in the Ukraine, because that was for German settlement (and colonisation of the natives as peasant farmers). The main candidate was Belarus (White Russia, Ruthenia, White Ruthenia).

The Deniers have written reams on Gas Chambers - denying them - but next to nothing of where those millions of Jews evacuated from the West, actually went to.

At this point a distinction must be made. The Nazis imposed a Selection system, dividing Jews into those to be put to work as labourers, and the rest. Old men, old women, and children were routinely put into the second group. It's these people who were either killed or resettled.

Some German train schedules (timetables for the transposts to the concentration camps) still survive, and show that there were quite a lot of trains to Auschwitz, some from Western Europe, but especially from Poland.

There were far fewer trains to Minsk and other parts of Belarus, and they look like regular passenger trains.

Bialystok is in the north-east of Poland. Trainloads of Jews from Bialystok were sent to Auschwitz and Treblinka, both to the south-west. Yet Belarus is to the EAST of Bialystok. If you wanted to resettle these Jews in the East, you wouldn't send them West.

Witnesses say that at Auschwitz, Jews faced Selection - some as Labourers, the rest for Extermination. At Treblinka, there was no Selection because there were no Labour Camps there. It was just Extermination.

If you wanted to resettle Bialystok's Jews in the East, but first select some for labour at Auschwitz' work camps, you would do the selecting at Bialystok itself, sending some West (to work) and the others East (for resettlement). Yet we never hear of selections in that way. Instead, they are always reported at concentration camps.

To move millions of people from West to East, for peaceful resettlement, would entail the building of new cities, consuming scarce resources during wartime.

The clincher is the case of Hungary's Jews, which were not sent to Auschwitz until mid 1944, when the Russians were closing in.

Have a look at this map of the eastern front, noting the dates at which the Russians retook various lands: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... 944-12.png

By mid 1944, there was no possibility of resettling Jews in Belarus (White Russia, Ruthenia, White Ruthenia). Yet this is when Hungary's Jews were sent to Auschwitz.

The Deniers have no answer to this. This is End-Game for Holocaust Denial.

Over the following 2 weeks, I will put out substantial material on this topic. I invite Deniers to reply - but please stick to this topic. This particular topic is your weakness; I will not allow you to talk your way around it on this forum.

Does this mean that I'm becoming a stooge of the Zionists? No more than Norman Finkelstein - look at how they hate him. Less than Finkelstein, because I think that the Deniers have validly pointed out ways that Holocaust Orthodoxy has overstated its case, eg by not telling tourists at Auschwitz that Krema I is a Reconstruction, not Original.

So, the Deniers have performed a service. But it's wrong to make a religion out of Denial, just as it is to make a religion out of "The" Holocaust.

I will follow Finkelstein's use, in calling it "the Nazi Holocaust" (as it used to be called), not "The Holocaust".

I admire Bishop Williamson, and I would not like him to retract when he does not believe in the Extermination; but I think he's wrong, and I'd like to send him my material. If anyone knows an address I can send it to, please let me know.

There are few if any extremists on this mailing list, so I do not expect to lose many or any participants; but I'm prepared to lose them, if so they choose.

My new perspective enables me to better understand the "never again" siege mentality of Zionism. Yet, the Zionists are treating the Palestinians and Arabs in much the same way the Nazis treated Jews.

Peter Myers, February 6, 2009

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Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:34 pm)

Arguing about alleged train shipments of millions of Jews to the east,to the west,or even the moon seems very redundant considering there are no mass-graves or evidence of functioning gas chambers.

Still,he tells us that he`s not a Zionist shill.That has to count for something.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:45 pm)

It indeed is a weak point for the period of 1945-1950. But it's not such a week point after that for this very reason: Israel was full of Ashkenazi Jews.

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Postby Citizenfitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:53 pm)

It's a typical straw man argument - create a false premise to give a false conclusion.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:30 am)

Some German train schedules (timetables for the transposts to the concentration camps) still survive, and show that there were quite a lot of trains to Auschwitz, some from Western Europe, but especially from Poland.

There were far fewer trains to Minsk and other parts of Belarus, and they look like regular passenger trains.
.... And who says that these train records are actually complete records. This is argument from ignorance fallacy.

Additionally it is kind of funny that there are less trains to Belarus (to the East), which is on the way to the Eastern front. Shouldn't there be more records on this, given that the Germans had to move troops and supplies to the Eastern Front?

Bialystok is in the north-east of Poland. Trainloads of Jews from Bialystok were sent to Auschwitz and Treblinka, both to the south-west. Yet Belarus is to the EAST of Bialystok. If you wanted to resettle these Jews in the East, you wouldn't send them West.
Does it come to mind that Auschwitz was also a work camp. And that you first need some preparation of an area, before you resettle people there?

Well, the issue that is being raised is the question is "What has happened to the Jews during world war two in Eastern Europe?". This still needs to be thoroughly researched meaning that more evidence needs to be found, examined and shown. That this hasn't been done, doesn't prove a Holocaust. In fact that kind of research should have been done on the "Holocaust" and given the importance in public discourse I suppose it has. Just that this research couldn't come up with any results in favor of the extermination by gassing thesis worth showing.

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:14 am)

The fatal flaw of the Deniers concerns the "Final Solution" to the Jewish Problem. The Deniers say that, instead of this meaning Extermination, it meant Resettlement in the East. That is, east of Poland. Not in the Ukraine, because that was for German settlement (and colonisation of the natives as peasant farmers). The main candidate was Belarus (White Russia, Ruthenia, White Ruthenia).

The Deniers have written reams on Gas Chambers - denying them - but next to nothing of where those millions of Jews evacuated from the West, actually went to.


This is only a "flaw" if you blindly swallow the population statistics, testimonies, trials, etc., given to us by Marxist governments. Only in holocaust historiography have I seen such a crowd of chicks gleefully accept worms from Communists.

The only "fatal flaw" here I see is on the side of the exterminationists.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:12 am)

[From Peter Myers]

Have a look at this map of the eastern front, noting the dates at which the Russians retook various lands: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... 944-12.png

By mid 1944, there was no possibility of resettling Jews in Belarus (White Russia, Ruthenia, White Ruthenia). Yet this is when Hungary's Jews were sent to Auschwitz.


Something important that should be kept in mind: in the initial stages of what was called the "final solution" (and notably during Operation Reinhardt) Jews were indeed transported eastwards. However, in later stages, Auschwitz functioned very much like a large distribution platform to send forced labor into other camps or places, and not exclusively East. This is, for instance, why within the "Holocaust" literature you keep meeting deported Hungarian Jews all over the German occupied territory, and not simply within the confines of Birkenau. How come they got there?

Of course, this is not valid for the Hungarian Jews only. It happened all the time, and not exclusively for labor purposes. Take, for instance the small sample of people constituted by Anne Frank's entourage, i.e. those mentioned in the diaries attributed to her. Notice the locations they went through:

-- Albert Dussel taken to Auschwitz, later to Neuengamme, died there 1945.
-- Mrs "van Daan" taken to Auschwitz, later to Buchenwald, died there 1945.
-- Peter "van Daan" taken to Auschwitz, later to Mauthausen, died there 1945.
-- Margot Frank taken to Auschwitz, later to Belsen, died there 1945.
-- Anne Frank taken to Auschwitz, later to Belsen, died there 1945.
-- Mrs Frank taken to Auschwitz, later to Belsen, died there 1945.
-- Mr "van Daan" taken to Auschwitz, last seen there in 1945.
-- Mr Frank taken to Auschwitz, survived in camp hospital.

Think about it: with the possible exception of one person, not a single one of those who went through the alleged "factory of death" actually died there. In fact the one known to have stayed there until the end of the war was the only one who survived...

If one pays attention to what one is reading, one keeps finding instances of this. Take, at random and for example, Frederick Taylor's book "Dresden" where he attempts to dissolve the guilt for the bombing of Dresden on "Holocaust" considerations.

Here is a direct quote: "Ilana Turner went from [the ghetto of] Lodz to Auschwitz, but after a few days was transferred along with her fellow workers to Stutthof (...). It was sometime in the second week of October 1944 when they were put into boxcars and transferred by train from Stutthof to Dresden."

The intelligent reader, paying attention to the unfortunate Jewish slave-workers who went to Auschwitz, spent a couple of days there, presumably with no registration number issued to them for such a short period, then left to some other camp, cannot help but wondering whether the transport in question is one of those that gets listed as "straight to the crematoria"...
Last edited by ASMarques on Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:14 am)

Peter Myers wrote:The Deniers say that, instead of this meaning Extermination, it meant Resettlement in the East. That is, east of Poland. Not in the Ukraine, because that was for German settlement (and colonisation of the natives as peasant farmers). The main candidate was Belarus (White Russia, Ruthenia, White Ruthenia).

The Deniers have written reams on Gas Chambers - denying them - but next to nothing of where those millions of Jews evacuated from the West, actually went to.

[...]

The Deniers have no answer to this. This is End-Game for Holocaust Denial.


Revisionists have argued that the Jews were to be brought to the Pripjat swamps (on the border of the Ukraine and Belorus).

Hitler made a remark in his so-called "table talks" (on the evening of 25. Oct. 1941, in the presence of Himmler and Heydrich):

Hitler wrote:If anybody shall say: »But we can't send them [i.e. the Jews] into the mud.« Who cares about our people then? It is useful that the awe of exterminating the Jews is attributed to us.




Image


Peter Myers wrote:The clincher is the case of Hungary's Jews, which were not sent to Auschwitz until mid 1944, when the Russians were closing in. [...]

By mid 1944, there was no possibility of resettling Jews in Belarus (White Russia, Ruthenia, White Ruthenia). Yet this is when Hungary's Jews were sent to Auschwitz.



As far as the Hungarian Jews are concerned: these have been assigned to the German air armaments industry:

Quotation from the book of Manfred Jurleit Strahljäger Me 262. Die Technikgeschichte [Motorbuch, Stuttgart ²1995]:

Manfred Jurleit wrote:A few days later, on 6. April 1944, Field Marshal Milch met with Hitler, Göring and Saur in Hitler's headquarter. He asked Hitler and Saur for their agreement for the enlargement of underground A4-rocket-plant "Mittelwerk" near Nordhausen and for producing 1.000 Me 262 per month there.
Hitler even promised to give orders to Himmler to provide 100.000 Hungarian Jews as workers for this purpose. [pp. 76/77]

On this 26. May 1944 Speer and Saur had a meeting with SS-Obergruppenführer Kammler and his chief of staff, Dr. Schlempp. [...]

Speer asked a question on the workers Hitler had promised to make available on 6th April:
»What about the Hungarian Jews?«

Kammler answered: »They are on the way. At the end of this month the first transports for the underground-plants will arrive.«

Schlempp: »...Dorsch said yesterday that he will send 100.000 Jews from Hungary, 50.000 Italians, 10.000 people from factories which have been damaged by air-attack, 1.000 from Waldbröhl; then he will send people from Greiser's Gau, 4.000 Italian officers, 10.000 from South-Russia, 20.000 from Norhern Russia, i.e. together 200.000.« [p. 81]


See also:

Arthur Butz on the Hungarian Jews:

http://www.vho.org/VffG/2000/3/Butz277-284.html

http://www.vho.org/VffG/2001/4/Butz395f.html


Jürgen Graf:

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/JG/Orange-eng.html

Carlo Mattogno:

http://www.vho.org/VffG/2001/4/Mattogno381-395.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:42 am)

Oh yawn. Jews went where Jews are. They were pouring out of Europe after the war.

And for those train records, what's revealing is that the outgoing train records from the camps have strangely disappeard or been hidden.

for more see:
'Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2355
excerpt:
points:

We know there are plenty of train transport records TO various camps, we have none which show trains LEAVING. Why is that?

- Didn't the trains go somewhere after their trips to the alleged 'death camps'?

- Does anyone really think the Germans didn't keep records of where their trains went, full or empty?

- Would the Germans deliberately destroy their records of outbound trains while not destroying the records of inbound trains?

- So where did they outbound transport records go?

The lack of these outgoing train records is damning to the story.

- Hannover

IOW, while there is no proof of any Jew being gassed at Auschwitz or anywhere else, the outgoing records contained lists of vast numbers of Jews bound for other locations who are fraudulently claimed to have gassed. Those records are/were not permitted to see the light of day.

Also, a related must read:
'The Razor and the Ring'
By John Weir
http://codoh.com/revisionist/tr12razor.html

This is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:22 am)

Hi-I always welcome a novel approach that tries to support the gassing holocaust mythology and I look forward to your report. It is not an easy job to do; it is impossible.

I am always empathetic to the defenders of the gassing holocaust faith, for what is one to do when asked to prove a crime, the gassing of 11 million people , including 6 million Jews, that has no gassing weapon, for the so-called gas chambers in Poland are now suffering the same fate as the ones in Germany did immediately after the war, the truth, and, just as bad, no one has yet ever found a gassed body, let alone any mass graves to support anywhere near the numbers of victims claimed by the believers. And to make matters worse for the gassing hoax and every other so called eye-witness book, including the ones supported by Oprah, is that they have all been so easily contradicted by science, logic, mathematics and dare I say, common sense.

It is also humorous to learn this latest spin neatly combines one of the best old spins “then where did they all go?” with a new spin “then why weren’t they all happily farming somewhere?” But I admire you for your curiosity and your willingness to find the truth.

In your search to the “then where did they all go?” question, aside from reading the many well researched books on this issue whose names are often mentioned on this site, I suggest that you should consider that in 2003 it was proven by two studies in Israel that there were close to a million holocaust survivors world-wide still living and still claiming to be Jews, if not necessarily followers of Judaism. If one uses a little mathematics and also includes the tens of thousands of holocaust survivors who no doubt quit Judaism altogether when they fled Nazi Europe, who were not even counted in this survey, then it is easy to understand how over a million holocaust survivors who were still alive in 2003 translates into the fact that at least 6 million holocaust survivors were still live at the end of the war almost 64 years ago.

Note also that this new number neatly blends in with Bishop Williamson claims of three to four hundred thousand holocaust deaths. These facts alone, plus the pictures of the hundreds of children survivors in the camps, not only demolish the gassing story and but also the lie that the “children were instantly murdered stories”, for obviously tens of thousands of the still alive survivors in 2003 must have been children at the time of liberation.

(2) Secondly, to unravel the second part of this double spin, the internment Jews were not farming because:
(a) None of them knew how to farm. Besides, just where or how does one plunk down two to three million non-farming Jews in the country side, in the middle of a war, miles from the nearest city and expect them to survive? That would have been cruel.
(b) However most importantly and more seriously the internees were needed for the Nazis war effort. Remember that Germany at that time was a rather small country of 90 million, that it was just coming out of a terrible depression and that it was at war with much of the world. Frankly, it had no chance of ever conquering Russia or even Great Britain or ever defeating the USA, let alone the chance of defeating them all at the same time, but it did try. It made use of every person it could for the war effort and it never quit. Every person in the internment camps who was made to work freed up a Nazi to become a fighter for their hopeless struggle.

There are many many books on this very topic "then where did they all go?". Just trace this thread on this site, but the most recent book that I have read that you and everyone else interested in the holocaust too should read is by Edwin Black, The Transfer Agreement. In this book he describes how the Nazis and Zionists cooperated in forcing the European Jews to relocate to Palestine and only Palestine from 1933 to the end of the war. Thus this shocking book tells you not only "where many of them went" but how they got there as well.

I hope this helps in your research. I am looking forward to your report and good luck.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:00 pm)

“then where did they all go?”


Look at Israel.. how many Jews were there before WWII? How many are there now? Jews were literally flooding out of Europe immigrating to Israel, US, Canada, S. America, S. Africa..you name it.

Many Jews certainly died in various armies (like those of all religions), and certainly Allied air raids would have killed many.

In Colliers magazine, June 9th, 1945, Freiling Foster, writing of the Jews in Russia, explained that:
"2,200,000 have migrated to the Soviet Union since 1939....."


The 1931 Jewish population census for Poland put the number of Jews
at 2,732,600 (Reitlinger, Die Endlösung, p. 36). Reitlinger states that
at least 1,170,000 of these were in the Russian zone occupied in the
autumn of 1939, about a million of whom were evacuated to the Urals
and south Siberia after the German invasion of June 1941
(ibid. p. 50)

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p-91_Sanning.html

As early as February 1940, German intelligence had reported the
systematic deportation of the Polish, Ukrainian and Jewish population
from the western Ukraine.13

(13- Aschenauer, Rudolf. Krieg ohne Grenzen, Leoni, 1982, p. 115.)

In June 1940, up to one million Jewish refugees from German-occupied Poland along with many hundreds of thousands of Poles were deported to Siberia. Then, a few weeks before 22 June 1941, mass deportations of the civilian populations along the entire frontier with Germany, Hungary, and Rumania took place. The Soviets, informed by their own spies, Allied intelligence, and German traitors, lost no time in removing those civilians who were most critically needed in the Ural armaments centers.l4

(14 - Sanning, Walter N. The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, Torrance, Calif.: 1983, 3rd Chapter)


"With the outbreak of war in September the Poles began to loot stores and attack the Jews. ... The Jews were deported by the Germans to the area under Soviet control on the other side of the San river. ... In the summer of 1940 many of them were deported to the Soviet interior."

Encyclopaedia Judaica Vol. II, p.184


Soviet (including annexed territories) Jews:
"Thanks to the evacuation, the majority (80%) of the Jews in the Ukraine, White Russia, Lithuania and Latvia before the arrival of the Germans were rescued." Jewish journalist David Bergelson, Moscow Yiddish paper Ainikeit December 5, 1942


Mattogno/Jürgen quoted in their Treblinka book a Jewish journalist Louis Rapoport from his book La guerra di Stalin contro gli Ebrei, Rizzoli, Mailand 1991:
“Of the approximately one million Polish Jews which were sent to the Ural [by the Communists] as well as to Siberia - The trip lasted four to six weeks under the most horrible conditions - one fifth to one third died, according to a news sheet of the Joint Distribution Committee from the year 1943.”


I've heard Swiss Revisionist Jurgen Graf make this comparison, something like:
'Before the Algeria uprising against the French, there were ca. 1,000,000 Frenchmen in Algeria, when the dust settled there were mere thousands. Does that mean they were murdered?'


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:07 pm)

Hannover wrote:
“then where did they all go?”


Look at Israel.. how many Jews were there before WWII? How many are there now? Jews were literally flooding out of Europe immigrating to Israel, US, Canada, S. America, S. Africa..you name it.
...


But Hannover, this only explains what happened to survivors. This doesn't explain what happened to those that were gassed. Where are they now, if they weren't gassed :wink: ?


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