The “Disappearance” of the Corpse Slide

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The “Disappearance” of the Corpse Slide

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:23 pm)

In Auschwitz plain facts we can read about the corpse slide.

4.4.1. The “Disappearance” of the Corpse Slide (pp. 64f)

By no means did this slide disappear to make way for stairs by which the designated victims would have had access, on foot, to the “changing room” on the way to the “gas chamber.” If the slide does not appear in a partial plan dated December 19, 1942, it is most likely for the simple reason that, since the architect’s drawing concerned only a stairway leading to the street, there was no reason, here, to represent that slide which, in any case, appeared nine months later in a drawing of September 24, 1943.47 Still today the remains of this inclined surface (Rutsche) are visible in the ruins of crematory III; it was the route by which a cart transported a corpse or corpses. In 1989 Pressac said as much himself and presented a photograph of those remains!48 As for the narrow stairway of the alleged “changing room,” it obviously would not have sufficed for the entry of veritable throngs of humanity.


The Holocaustians argue that the removal of the slide indicates that the function of the morgue has been changed to a homicidal gas chamber.

I have drawings of this part of the Krema:
Image

Image

I would be especially interested into that "drawing of September 24, 1943" - Could anyone link to this?

Another issue is the allegation that the door of the morgue, which is according to Holocaustians a gas chamber, has been changed especially that the doors are now opening to the outside, while on the initial design it was opening to the inside.


Any comments on the issue?

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:39 pm)

I am still interested in the following:
1. Proof of the further existence of the corpse slides. I.e. the drawing in question.
2. Evidence relating to changes on the door or lack thereof. On needs to know what the initial design of the door whether it was really changed.

So does anyone have a link to the "drawing of September 24, 1943"???

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:33 am)

IMO, if the corpse slide was boarded up as Pressac and Van Pelt have said, I don't see any relevance. Throwing the diseased dead down a corpse chute with a filthy thud on a floor is begging for rats and more disease, as is having a chute open to the outside anyway, where vermin can get in. I know that Birkenau had a rat problem in barracks, and problems keeping rats from corpses in wooden barracks which were used as temporary morgues.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:09 am)

@ potpie,

Thanks for the input. I still would like to know whether this corpse slide was removed or not. Hence a drawing would be highly regarded with interest.


I managed to find a supposedly earlier drawing on the Krema:
https://archive.is/MBX78/e8696d6a15c624 ... b3933f.jpe
Note that the doors of the alleged gas chambers are closing to the inside.
Last edited by Hektor on Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:36 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Arsènelupin » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:05 am)

According to Faurisson ("Réponse à Jean-Claude Pressac") and Jean-Marie Boisdefeu quoting Mattogno ("La controverse sur l'extermination des Juifs par les Allemands"), the slide was not removed, and appears on a drawing of september 24th 1943. It was not drawn on an other blueprint because it was not necessary to show this particular detail on it wich concerned an other entrance. This slide is still visible in the ruins of the krema III, Faurisson writes.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:20 am)

I think I found the drawing you are talking about:
Image

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0327.shtml
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:21 pm)

According to Faurisson ("Réponse à Jean-Claude Pressac") and Jean-Marie Boisdefeu quoting Mattogno ("La controverse sur l'extermination des Juifs par les Allemands"), the slide was not removed, and appears on a drawing of september 24th 1943. It was not drawn on an other blueprint because it was not necessary to show this particular detail on it wich concerned an other entrance. This slide is still visible in the ruins of the krema III, Faurisson writes.


There was a lot of "rebuilding" going on at these camps, that is why the Marxists could not film any of it when they arrived -- obviously because none of it was ready. Concerning the chute that dumps corpses right in front of the "morgue" doors, Pelty said it should not exist!

Regarding this, van Pelt/Dwork write as follows:

"This procedure could be repeated in crematoria II and III. Dejaco changed the basement plan. He drew in an outside staircase descending from the yard next to the railway spur into a basement entrance to crematorium. This is where a vestibule, a new undressing room, and the new gas chamber were located. He canceled the planned corpse chute, which in the earlier plans had been the main access to the basement morgues. Live human beings descend staircases. Dead bodies are dropped through a chute. The victims would walk to their death" (p.324).

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:11 am)

Mattogno wrote on this topic in his criticism of Van Pelt & Dworkin's Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present.

He wrote,

As I have shown elsewhere,[28] the subject of the plan is simply a project to transfer the basement access to the street side (Verlegung des Kellerzuganges an die Strassenseite) [29] and not a proposal to eliminate the slide, which in fact exists in all successive plans, viz.
Plan 2136 of the Zentralbauleitung of 22 February 1943 for Crematorium III [30];
Plan 2197 of the Zentralbauleitung of 18 March 1943 for Crematorium II[31];
Plan 109/15 of the firm Huta of 24 September 1943 for Crematoria II and III[32];
Plan 109/16A of the firm Huta of 9 October 1943 for Crematoria II and III[33].
Moreover, the "Rutsch" is mentioned as existing in ordinances 200 and 204 of the Zentralbauleitung to the Häftlingsschlosserei of 18 March 1943 respecting Crematorium II [34]



http://vho.org/GB/c/CM/irving-eng.html

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:46 am)

So, if you have just built two massive "morgues", why isn't the corpse chute fitted so the corpses are slid directly into the morgues, instead of dumped onto the floor outside the morgue and directly into the swing of the "morgue" door? Would it be because the the small basement was never partitioned and was the "real" morgue?

It seems once again the so-called plans are left wanting and someone is telling porkies.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 pm)

Could you elaborate a bit on this, Turpitz.



Here is a possible explanation: The chute is outside the morgue, because the morgue had to be closed, while the chute would have left an opening to the outside.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:26 pm)

Could you elaborate a bit on this, Turpitz.

Here is a possible explanation: The chute is outside the morgue, because the morgue had to be closed, while the chute would have left an opening to the outside.


I don't know what there is to elaborate on really. If you were going to go to all the trouble of building huge morgues, surely including a decent access point would be a fundamental requirement? Why would you still want to dump them outside the morgue and up against the morgue doors?

You would put a door on the chute entrance. Then it would only be open whilst a corpse was being thrown in, then you would close the door.

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Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 pm)

Turpitz wrote:I don't know what there is to elaborate on really. If you were going to go to all the trouble of building huge morgues, surely including a decent access point would be a fundamental requirement? Why would you still want to dump them outside the morgue and up against the morgue doors?

You would put a door on the chute entrance. Then it would only be open whilst a corpse was being thrown in, then you would close the door.


Turpitz, I think you are mistaken here. The corpse chute was planned to allow for bodies to be brought to either morgue, as would make sense through the Birkenau lay out, and not only one of the morgues of a crematorium. The scenario you describe would require a corpse chute for every morgue, but that would be redundant, and also expensive.

AFAIK, corpse chutes usually had steps alongside them, in case bodies got stuck on their way down the actual chute. If it was just a tube-like structure without open stairs, such would inevitably occur. The Sachsenhausen corpse-chute is a good example for both of these points.

BTW Hektor, I have an unfinished piece on this and will put it together shortly.

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:24 am)

Wahrheit wrote: AFAIK, corpse chutes usually had steps alongside them, in case bodies got stuck on their way down the actual chute. If it was just a tube-like structure without open stairs, such would inevitably occur. The Sachsenhausen corpse-chute is a good example for both of these points.

BTW Hektor, I have an unfinished piece on this and will put it together shortly.


This will be an interesting read. It reminds me of a few scattered arguments I've heard from people who assume that the presence of hooks in the Birkenau morgues was "proof of homicidal gassings" or at least of "hanging people" until you read accounts of other facilities such as Buchenwald which had hooks in its morgue. The Black Book contains one such description in an otherwise concocted witness claim.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:08 am)

Turpitz, I think you are mistaken here. The corpse chute was planned to allow for bodies to be brought to either morgue, as would make sense through the Birkenau lay out, and not only one of the morgues of a crematorium. The scenario you describe would require a corpse chute for every morgue, but that would be redundant, and also expensive.


Why don't you just take them straight to the required morgue? I do not think that someone who is going to spend a great amount of time and money building a labyrinth of ridiculous, underground ducts is going to concern themselves with the price of a few stairs.

AFAIK, corpse chutes usually had steps alongside them, in case bodies got stuck on their way down the actual chute. If it was just a tube-like structure without open stairs, such would inevitably occur. The Sachsenhausen corpse-chute is a good example for both of these points.

Well that might well be true, but many camps never bothered with them and only had steps down to the morgues. The inconsistency is bizarre.


Tell me, if you were stood at the gate (A), and wanted to put a corpse in the "morgues" via the door at (B), What route would you take to get to the door?

Image

Would you go all along one side of the the "undressing room", then back down the other side (would be great fun in the winter). Or would you go out around the drawn in fence, past the "watchtower" (post-war addition?) down toward the sewage works, across the rough ground and back through the fence up to the door (extra fun in the winter!)?

For me, I would take them down the steps at C.

I would also like you to note that there are no steps at the entrance to the chute showing on the aerial photos, when there should be. Because the threshold of the door is way above ground level. Some of these "photos" do not show the so-called smaller ventilation stacks either.

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Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:52 pm)

Turpitz wrote:Why don't you just take them straight to the required morgue? I do not think that someone who is going to spend a great amount of time and money building a labyrinth of ridiculous, underground ducts is going to concern themselves with the price of a few stairs.


It was not built very effectively, as the planning seems to have been a little off and not well adpated to other changes taking place. I generally agree with your point that access to the corpse chute was a bit out of the way for workers. Perhaps it was not used very often, but I don't think that would have been such a big deal as the Kremas semi-basements only went a few feet below ground. One could easily carry/toss corpses down the few flights of stairs from any of the alleged entrance.

Birkenau did not have the complete underground morgues/corpse storage rooms that Sachsenhausen or Buchenwald did, so the chute-requirement was lessened. BTW, not sure if Buchenwald's had steps or not to accompany it.

Well that might well be true, but many camps never bothered with them and only had steps down to the morgues. The inconsistency is bizarre.


I do not see how this is an 'inconsistency'. Corpse chutes were usually used in underground morgues, such as the sites referred to above. Birkenau was different in that it did not go very far below ground, yet even still a corpse-chute was built. This clearly shows that there was no homicidal "gassing" plan in effect when these projects were planned.

Tell me, if you were stood at the gate (A), and wanted to put a corpse in the "morgues" via the door at (B), What route would you take to get to the door?


Would likely depend on the means of transportation, and the amount of corpses to be moved. If one used a vehicle towing a full load of corpses, might be worth it to drive the extra minute around the Krema to the chute. If on foot, or with only few bodies, could likely take the stairs.


Some of these "photos" do not show the so-called smaller ventilation stacks either.


Problem is the low resolution when one looks up closely on the roof, but even then you can see the ventilation stacks.

Look here at what 'Hans' has done on another forum:
Image

Not to mention that numerous ground-level photographs of the morgues clearly show ventilation chimneys.


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