Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

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vincentferrer
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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:31 pm)

You make no sense McNally. I have shown beyond a reasonable doubt there did in fact exist such a person as Jesus. The Talmud, which was put together beginnng in the year 200 AD refers to Jesus in several places. You will not believe no matter what. I have long suspected based on your posts you are here to create dissent among revisionists. Your Jewishness is showing.
The very word holocaust is a pejorative to every German citizen. There was no holocaust,
just lies from the abandoned race.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:27 pm)

vincentferrer wrote:ot- excuse me ASMarques, but you also gonna tell me the Talmud makes no reference to Jesus.


It does, but the rabbinical literature about the Christian Jesus follows chronologically the development of the mythical figure by the Christians themselves. See, for instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu

What's so strange about that? What you have is on one side the apologists of the pseudo-historical Christian savior developing an earthly biography for their emerging concept of the Messiah as incarnate god. And on the other, the horrified Jewish detractors of the same figure -- by then in possession of an earthly biography -- doing their best to create their own rival biography and resisting the overtaking of their messianic concept by the new heretic sect.

vincentferrer wrote:I have given you solid historical evidence that proves Jesus the Christ lived as history and Scripture document.


I guess the esteemed moderator must have taken it away before I could set sight on it.

vincentferrer wrote:It is not up to me to prove he existed, as history does not question it, nor do modern day scholars.


You mean it's really the "Holocaust" standard of proof when it comes to the "Jesus the carpenter" historical vacuum, not to mention the human god walking on water or taking post-mortem flight and disappearing into the upper reaches of the atmosphere? But of course it is. How could it be otherwise?

vincentferrer wrote:Yes, there are a few who do, but it is up to you to prove your hypothesis, it is not up to me to prove the accepted historical record, although I have provided more than enough evidence to rest my case.


Impossible. It's faith against faith. How can I possibly reason anyone out of unreason, except by pointing out that it feels good to use a single set of standards?

By the way, have you noticed how the "Holocaust" hard talk has recently decreased around these parts, while several posters seem to indulge, like we're doing, in marginal, rather off-topic, conversations?

My explanation for this is there is hardly anything more one can do on the technical debunking front. The whole thing is now reduced to how best to spread the word. Perhaps we might learn a few things from the mad Jew from Tarsus, but then again maybe we've better not...

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby gbrecht » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:48 pm)

@ASMarques: Every time i read your posts on that Richard Dawkins website it makes me cringe at the sheer mass of people against you. How do you even continue, doesn't it eventually become mind-numbingly futile, like trying to bend a spoon with your mind? :lol:


Have you ever had positive interested responses?

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby Lohengrin » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:34 pm)

gbrecht replies:
@ASMarques: Every time i read your posts on that Richard Dawkins website it makes me cringe at the sheer mass of people against you. How do you even continue, doesn't it eventually become mind-numbingly futile, like trying to bend a spoon with your mind? :lol:
Have you ever had positive interested responses?

Here's the answer gbrecht: The Foreign Ministry (of USrael) presents: talkbackers in the service of the State (Israel).
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=34520

No further comment needed, I suppose.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby PatrickSMcNally » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:49 pm)

vincentferrer wrote:Your Jewishness is showing.

If pointing out the simple fact that many claims popular among Right-wing Christians are as dumb as anything ever put out by the Holocaust Industry is going to be defined as "Jewishness," then that's the type of "Jewishness" that I'd be proud of. But no, I don't have any family background with Jewish ties. At the same time it does need to be repeated again and again that the main reason why large numbers of people swallow so readily the stories of multiple thousands of bodies going up in smoke without a trace every day is primarily because they learn to identify, based upon scanning a variety of internet sites and possibly talking with people in the real world, the claim that there is something wrong with the gas chambers story with a whole host of what is just obviously Right-wing BS. Very few take the time to get any detailed familiarity with the real issues, but they notice that people who claim there were no gas chambers just happen to think the earth was created in seven days or some other form of nonsense. They draw their conclusions from that more often than anything else. Although I've known many people who took the story of the Holocaust very seriously, none of them ever paid any attention to Elie Wiesel. Their willingness to believe in the Holocaust did not derive from being bamboozled by Wiesel, as comfortable as it would be to imagine that it did. They simply took a look at what they were able to encounter in their own lives as representing "Holocaust revisionism" and concluded that "These guys are just Right-wing kooks!" In many cases they had very good arguments to support that line of reasoning, at least with regards to the specific cases they were pointing at. All I could respond with was to say that looking in greater depth at some of the better revisionist works and simultaneously studying the orthodox literature would reveal more than they expected. But one should never overstate the importance of a clown like Wiesel in getting such people to believe in the Holocaust. They came to believe it because they saw many clowns on the revisionist end of things and didn't look very closely at Wiesel, or Christopher Browning for that matter. It was the clowns on the revisionist side of the barricades who persuaded them to accept the orthodox history, not an examination of the orthodox history itself.

vincentferrer wrote:I have shown beyond a reasonable doubt there did in fact exist such a person as Jesus.

I disagree that you've shown any such thing, but it's beside the point because I wasn't taking issue with that. You had mentioned some historians who claim that a real Jesus existed. Yes, I'm aware that such a view is argued by some historians. But I can also guarantee you that such historians do not generally promote the view of Christ having been born from a virgin mother, or anything else similar.

vincentferrer wrote:The Talmud, which was put together beginnng in the year 200 AD refers to Jesus in several places.

Which only demonstrates the rise of a competition among divergent legends. It gives us no information that can allow us to determine whether this is actually a reference to a real person or simply the product of a legend. But at least you've helped to illustrate why so many people would easily believe someone like Rudolf Vrba. If this is the methodology for determining whether the story of Jesus is a product of myths merging together or if it's based upon a real individual, then by such standards we may just as well forget about critiquing anything Vrba ever claimed.

vincentferrer wrote:You will not believe no matter what.

What you're simply overlooking is that the topic of the board is supposed to be the HollowCause. If you want to believe in the Virgin Mary, feel free to do so in your own private domain. But anything which rests on such beliefs should simply have no place on a forum where the main arguments necessitate a reference to scientific methodology.
Last edited by PatrickSMcNally on Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:47 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 months ago (Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:08 pm)

UNTO GBRECHT:

gbrecht wrote:Every time i read your posts on that Richard Dawkins website it makes me cringe at the sheer mass of people against you. How do you even continue, doesn't it eventually become mind-numbingly futile, like trying to bend a spoon with your mind? :lol:


Setting bent souls straight is actually good fun to me.

gbrecht wrote:Have you ever had positive interested responses?


Oddly enough, yes, but it could be the latin macho syndrome and it shouldn't count: a female poster who used a beautiful white horse for avatar (no longer visible, I'm afraid), seemed to react positively to the idea of being mounted. See here and here.
__________________________________________________________

UNTO ALLGOOD:

allgood wrote:I noted elsewhere on this forum how much I've appreciated AS Marques attempts to debate rationally with dogmatic atheists, whose latest secular saint is Richard Dawkins. Very enlightening exchanges. It occurs to me this may be the closest we're likely to get to the experience of watching Jesus debate his elders in the temple, exposing as he did their elaborate, tortuous and self-serving rhetoric with his superior commitment to the truth and sublime ability to present his case clearly and with courtesy at all times.

I hope neither AS Marques nor the Christians on this bulletin board take offense if I compare him with the Christian saviour, at least in this one activity. It's just as well he does it all in cyberspace, or they'd probably stone him.


:bigsmurf: I say unto thee that thou art Allgood, and upon this goodness I will build my church. :smurf: :smurf: :smurf: :smurf: :smurf:

Well, actually no. I've better not. Once the world is conquered, the best fun is gone...

It's true that most of the audible elders actually seemed more intent on having this little Jesus stoned than listening to his bottomless wisdom, which was funny enough, given their self-proclaimed status of wise rationalists.

But it's also true that, perhaps unlike even wiser people, I thrive in hostile intellectual environments crammed with narrow-minded fanatics, especially if I can do that from the comfort of my home in Festung Lissabon, with about 30 to 40 thousand faithful allies arrayed for battle on their orderly shelves and a refreshing lemonade by my side.

It's an interesting, somewhat vampiric, feeling that may have something to do with a character flaw. :scratch:

Confession time. According to chess players, the tell-tale sign that it's about to happen is when the opposing player becomes restless in his chair. In this line of business of ours, to me at least, the rush starts when his coherent words falter and he grasps in despair for the ugly names. In both cases the gratification comes from the cracking of the adversary's ego, a terrible thing to confess, and something that you should attempt only with great care in protecting your own, by keeping an olympian calm at all times.

However, I would readily give up my faith (externally, of course, since internally would be, by definition, an impossibility) at the simple sight, nay, at the simple mention of the torture device. I suppose that's how deeply I care for the welfare of other people's souls. Under torture I would never attempt to convert the torturer as St Robert of Lyon probably would.

Therefore no Jesus here, I'm afraid. Only a flawed sinner curious of his own train of thought. :dontknow:

allgood wrote:I also hope Vincent Ferrer won't mind me pointing out the irony when a Catholic of his persuasion cites the Talmud as a reliable document.


Good point. The beatus Vincent is a good man, but he must be admonished for falling in the temptation of the earthly idols instead of following the call of the High.

If you're really looking for a saintly figure to follow, my nomination wouldn't even be the great St Robert, blessed may he be for his steadfastness, for he is a whole army unto himself and I believe he too partakes in some measure of the sin of pride.

My nomination would be the patron of this site, St Bradley of Baja, for his heart is so innocent and free of sin that he is unable even to recognize the gleam in the eye of the sinner, but that would set us off on a discussion on the sinfulness of bullfighting, and at this point the good moderator would probably give up and fall comatose, once and for all. :shock:

Amen and out, for now.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby gbrecht » 1 decade 3 months ago (Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:31 am)

ASMarques wrote:Confession time. According to chess players, the tell-tale sign that it's about to happen is when the opposing player becomes restless in his chair. In this line of business of ours, to me at least, the rush starts when his coherent words falter and he grasps in despair for the ugly names. In both cases the gratification comes from the cracking of the adversary's ego, a terrible thing to confess, and something that you should attempt only with great care in protecting your own, by keeping an olympian calm at all times.



I've had a similar experience, after talking with some friends online, an acquaintance(who happened to be in the channel) of mine mentioned something about Germany being the most evil country of all time. So i asked if he was referring to the holocaust. We got into a discussion as I made my point of view clear, eventually he ran out of what logic he had and resorted to ad hominem attacks. At which point i kept completely calm and civil and rebutted his name-calling with pure logic, and I have to tell you, making him so angry was extremely satisfying. I think by staying calm it simply angered him more, as if i have such gall to say the holocaust didn't happen. :lol:

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 3 months ago (Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:03 am)

Do your Heavenly Father`s bidding,and save those poor souls from the evil (mental)imagery of gassed Jews!
Not to mention saving untold millions of children from unnecessary gas-chamber nightmares!
You never know,if you get whacked by the Jewish supremacists or their proxies AND the Mohammedans have it right about the eternity of being "attended to" by the willing houris for all the Martyrs in paradise,it could turn out to be a sweet deal indeed!
"We didn't call survivors," says Lipstadt, "because first of all we didn't want to subject them to cross-examination by this guy. He (Irving) would have destroyed them."
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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 months ago (Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:42 pm)

I hasten to add that debunking the murderous "Holocaust" myth -- the most effective propaganda excuse for the justification of violent conquest, pillage and permanent war ever invented -- seems to me much more urgent than reducing the intellectual / emotional dependency of educated people on established old religions that have mellowed and become less violently dogmatic. Concerning Christian theology and morals, in particular, I believe much can be salvaged once the ballast of historical falsehood has at least been reduced in weight.

I therefore agree that, in our times, the "Holocaust" myth and the Israeli-led inquisition the entire world is being subjected to, are on the whole more damaging than the strict doctrinal bodies of the surviving old religions, even when the traditional religious mindset still produces such abominations as the US variants of Christian fundamentalism, the Wahhabi Islamic sects etc..

My contention, from a practical point of view, is with the very bad tactics of attacking the young and very much alive hoax of the 20th century -- to paraphrase Butz -- from the fragile defensive grounds of its (partially bygone or neutralized) predecessors.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby Bradley » 1 decade 3 months ago (Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:16 pm)

I have just gone through this thread with an enthusiastic attention. I began to think it might soon be locked down. Then I began to worry that it might be deleted. I can see why it might be locked down, it's pretty well run its course, but I do hope that it is not deleted. I think we need more of this kind of stuff. Beginning with a simple thought and then taking off with it -- staying as much on topic as possible of course even tho we are flying free in the heavens.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby Halo » 1 decade 3 months ago (Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:42 am)

Please dont discuss the truthfulness of religions here, or if christ existed or not- this is not the topic.
Okay, trying to bring the thread on track again.

[The Holocaust] "is not simply one example of genocide but a nearly successful attempt on the life of God's chosen children and, thus, on God himself."

Abraham Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League, writing in the ADL's Frontline, January 1994.


"...As a Roman Catholic priest I say to you...question the existence of gas chambers in the Third Reich. It is the right of those who seek the truth to be allowed to doubt, investigate and evaluate. Wherever this doubting and evaluating is forbidden, wherever someone demands that he must be believed, an arrogance arises that is blasphemy to god. That is why. If those whom you doubt have their truth on their side, they will accept any questions gracefully and answer them patiently. They will no longer hide their proofs and their records. If these are lying, they will cry for the judge. That is how you recognize them. The truth is always graceful, while lies cries out for earthly judges."

-Pastor Viktor R. Knirsch

"Auschwitz is the refutation of Christ"

Claude Lanzmann

The new religion...Holocaustianity. The goyim will bow down and repent for their sins against the jews and if they try to deny it, they will be imprisoned.....but that sounds just like jewish communism. Just a coincidence I guess.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby Moderator » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:49 pm)

Please dont discuss the truthfulness of religions here, or if christ existed or not- this is not the topic.
Okay, trying to bring the thread on track again.
Those off topic posts have been deleted.
M1
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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:47 pm)

Moderator wrote:
Halo wrote:Please dont discuss the truthfulness of religions here, or if christ existed or not- this is not the topic.


Those off topic posts have been deleted.
M1


I agree that this thing was getting off-topic and reaching near escape velocity, but a couple of questions -- entirely on topic, I trust -- both to Halo and M1 should be placed:

QUESTION 1 (mainly to Halo): How can anyone discuss the religion of "Holocaustianism" (see Halo's own title for this thread) without putting its truthfulness in doubt?

QUESTION 2 (mainly to M1): Even worse, how can anyone understand "Holocaustianism" in its proper context, within the long story of mythological tales and triumphant hoaxes promoted to "History," if one proceeds to declare all but one of them out of bounds to rational criticism (which I certainly hope will not be the case)?

Thanks in advance for any guidelines.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:36 pm)

Lets be clear. ASMarques stepped outside the bounds of Holocaust subject matter to denounce all religions as bogus. Great way to distract people and change the focus of a board. Hmmm.
The very word holocaust is a pejorative to every German citizen. There was no holocaust,

just lies from the abandoned race.

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Re: Holocaustianism= Religion of Satan?

Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:00 pm)

Why ASMarques is taken serious is beyond me.

The holocaust is an event or alleged event that is recent, and we are still at a point in time where actual forensic evidence can refute the myth. There is no question: Jews were not gassed.

It is quite a leap to then say the first leader of the largest religious body on earth today, who lived 2000 years ago, never lived. Well, in the USA we have presidential succession, so we know who the presidents were right back to George Washington. The same holds true with Popes, right back to Peter. Yet the second I presented proof of the existence of the person Jesus, to answer the person who initially came on here and began denying his existence, the thread is edited.
The very word holocaust is a pejorative to every German citizen. There was no holocaust,

just lies from the abandoned race.


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