Irving's 'death toll for Jews' in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

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Thesaint
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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 4 months ago (Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:47 am)

Apologies Moderator,I accidentally double posted.
Last edited by Thesaint on Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
"We didn't call survivors," says Lipstadt, "because first of all we didn't want to subject them to cross-examination by this guy. He (Irving) would have destroyed them."
- Jerusalem Post 6/16/00

Thesaint
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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 4 months ago (Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:49 am)

Irving should have done better at the Lipstadt trial,and he should not be spouting easily debunked rubbish.
However,he has scored some points which dear old Debby has helped spread far and wide:

http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/e ... ment/13.34

13.73
"I recognise the force of many of Irving's comments upon some of those categories. He is right to point out that the contemporaneous documents, such as drawings, plans, correspondence with contractors and the like, yield little clear evidence of the existence of gas chambers designed to kill humans. Such isolated references to the use of gas as are to be found amongst these documents can be explained by the need to fumigate clothes so as to reduce the incidence of diseases such as typhus. The quantities of Zyklon-B delivered to the camp may arguably be explained by the need to fumigate clothes and other objects. It is also correct that one of the most compromising documents, namely Muller's letter of 28 June 1943 setting out the number of cadavers capable of being burnt in the incinerators, has a number of curious features which raise the possibility that it is not authentic. In addition, the photographic evidence for the existence of chimneys protruding through the roof of morgue 1 at crematorium 2 is, I accept, hard to interpret.
13.74 Similarly Irving had some valid comments to make about the various accounts given by survivors of the camp and by camp officials. Some of those accounts were given in evidence at the post-war trials. The possibility exists that some of these witnesses invented some or even all of the experiences which they describe. Irving suggested the possibility of cross-pollination, by which he meant the possibility that witnesses may have repeated and even embellished the (invented) accounts of other witnesses with the consequence that a corpus of false testimony is built up. Irving pointed out that parts of some of the accounts of some of the witnesses are obviously wrong or (like some of Olere's drawings) clearly exaggerated. He suggested various motives why witnesses might have given false accounts, such as greed and resentment (in the case of survivors) and fear and the wish to ingratiate themselves with their captors (in the case of camp officials). Van Pelt accepted that these possibilities exist. I agree."
"We didn't call survivors," says Lipstadt, "because first of all we didn't want to subject them to cross-examination by this guy. He (Irving) would have destroyed them."
- Jerusalem Post 6/16/00

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby PatrickSMcNally » 1 decade 4 months ago (Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:31 am)

allgood wrote:Did he throw it? Or is the accusation simply that he was headstrong and misguided?

One point which definitely stood out for me as an act of throwing a case was that there should have been no place at such a trial for Kevin MacDonald, who Irving brought in as a counter-productive distraction which carried sensationalistic overtones among his supporters but only undermined the case. It's been pointed out by some critics how MacDonald has a tendency to miscite sources. Whereas the sources he cites have generally found evidence of strong ethnic group cohesion among more economically impoverished Jews, they also point to consistent tendencies towards intermarriage and group dissolution as Jews bevome more well off. MacDonald frequently cites such sources in relation to the first half of this, but leaves out the second component of his sources' conclusions in a way which could mislead the reader who doesn't check such things. The whole thing reminds me of some comments in a letter on Mark Weber a few issues back in Bradley Smith's news release where a commentator suggested that Weber was underestimating the degree to which Jewish group identity was dissolving in intermarriage over the course of the next generation or so.

In any event, without developing any detailed arguments on that point, it should simply be obvious that this whole debate has absolutely no place at a legal trial devoted to whether or not a historian can be justified in casting doubt on the HollowCause. The most central argument maintained by such people as Lipstadt is that Holocaust revisionists really have no argument against the orthodox interpretation of the events known as "the Holocaust" that does not depend fundamentally upon racial theories about Jews. Only be invoking a racial theory about Jews can "deniers" attempt to rebut the volumes of mountainous evidence showing that gas chambers were employed in a systematic extermination program enacted by the Third Reich which killed something on the order of six million Jews. In such a context, a serious attempt to fight such a case in court should steer clear of someone like MacDonald who clearly does advocate such racial theory and associating a court case with such could only have the effect of confirming for the court that Irving depends upon such. It would be analogous if someone came into a court case as a consequence of a historical dispute over slavery and to buttress their case they invited someone to give testimony to the court about the IQ level among blacks. Unless that had something directly to do with the historical point under dispute, it would clearly backfire by showing that the person was depending upon going outside of the legitimate parameters of the subject in an effort to buttress their case indirectly through racial perceptions. This in turn would confirm for the court that the person doesn't really have a case on the essential point at hand. That was how Irving came off.

Had Irving been serious about fighting this case as a real case where one aims to win, he would have selected some very basic points such as the crematoria at Auschwitz, the burning of bodies in giant pits in the area of Auschwitz, the way that the Auschwitz gas chambers are said to have functioned, or some very similar small set of topics, and then gone into court with the intent of consistently drawing attention back to these topics, insofar as parts of the court proceedings are determined by what he takes the initiative on (obviously Lipstadt could bring up anything she liked), so as to make a clear point for the court that there are some real specific problems in important areas of the Holocaust narrative which could justify considering a revisionist view. Irving clearly did not prepare his case in this way and bringing in MacDonald was a totally derelict measure which could only undermine whatever else he attempted in the case. He should have been making this The Trial of Van Pelt with Germar Rudolf's advisory help, not bringing in anything from MacDonald.

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby patriot9878 » 1 decade 4 months ago (Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:21 am)

His figures conflict with the 270,000 figures discovered in the Russian archives. This would be the total count of everyone of all causes. I have asked Irving a few questions since being released from jail. His answers have changed I believe Irving will not be as good an author as he once was. I think Irving has been threatened some how. Because he's saying things now that conflict with what he said a few years ago. He is going to flip flop now and hurt himself. He even hinted there was a plan to exterminate the Jews. I suggest if he hints towards suggesting the holocaust was not a hoax and that he discovered there was a plan, then please just leave this guy to himself.

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby patriot9878 » 1 decade 4 months ago (Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:54 am)

Trials against holocaust deniers don't stand a chance from the start. The trial is just a formality that delays the punishing of the holocaust denier. The Judge is chosen by the chosen. I've told them to forget the holohoax for now. Why not focus on the 65 million people murdered in Europe?
Why doesn't anyone mention the millions of Communist Jews that came to America. Since they lied about being members of the Communist party. I would say one of the questions on their immigration application is if they are a member of any subversive organizations. This has not been addressed. They need to focus on other issues.

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 4 months ago (Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:12 am)

1,274,116 does seems a little high. Did he specify how he got this number? Let me take a wild guess:

Died of disease or starvation in the camps 400, 000 ( well documented)
Executed as spies, traitors, 74,116 ( a wild guess)
Died as soldiers in the Red army 600, 000
( based on the fact three million Polish Jews fled to USSR, many were forced to fight and 20 million USSR soldiers died in war)
Died in Siberia 200, 000 ( another wild guess)

Total 1,274,116

So it seems to me that his number is not that unreasonable....BJ
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 1 decade 3 months ago (Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:31 am)

I went to hear D. Irving speak last month. I was a little annoyed by his security precautions. When I got to the location I noticed a group of five young adults about 25 years old; they looked like college students. There were 4 males and 1 female. They had Jewish facial features and I thought they would disrupt the presentation. I was surprised to see Irving talking to them. No disruption of the presentation took place and afterwards I heard Irving mention that they were his security detail. I can not think of any reason why he would hire college students for security nor can I think of anything they could have done to protect us had someone tried to disrupt the presentation. I enjoyed his presentation but felt he sabotaged his credibility, especially during the question and answer session. I can not refute any of his claims since he has had access to more information than I ever will. I don't know what happened to him in Austria or what the Jews did to him. I am sure they threatened him and his family in some way, and he is trying to protect his family. His Himmler book will be interesting but its authenticity will be questioned by me. It seems like he is going to blame Himmler for everything and in so doing also blame Germany which will mean their continual persecution for eternity. :(

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby Lamprecht » 1 decade 3 months ago (Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:08 pm)

Barrington James wrote:1,274,116 does seems a little high. Did he specify how he got this number? Let me take a wild guess:

Died of disease or starvation in the camps 400, 000 ( well documented)
Executed as spies, traitors, 74,116 ( a wild guess)
Died as soldiers in the Red army 600, 000
( based on the fact three million Polish Jews fled to USSR, many were forced to fight and 20 million USSR soldiers died in war)
Died in Siberia 200, 000 ( another wild guess)

Total 1,274,116

So it seems to me that his number is not that unreasonable....BJ
Supposedly it was in the Reinhard camps - so gassing or whatever the story is for them.

'Irving attempts 'rehabilitation' via the Hoefle Telegram'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4558
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 months ago (Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:19 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Supposedly it was in the Reinhard camps - so gassing or whatever the story is for them.


The correct spelling is "Reinhardt", and this is important for several reasons. See:
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/200 ... -1986.html

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby Lamprecht » 1 decade 3 months ago (Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:18 am)

ASMarques wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:Supposedly it was in the Reinhard camps - so gassing or whatever the story is for them.


The correct spelling is "Reinhardt", and this is important for several reasons. See:
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/200 ... -1986.html
What's interesting is that the document itself spells it "REINHART"
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Iriving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116.

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 months ago (Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:43 am)

Lamprecht wrote:
ASMarques wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:Supposedly it was in the Reinhard camps - so gassing or whatever the story is for them.


The correct spelling is "Reinhardt", and this is important for several reasons. See:
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/200 ... -1986.html


What's interesting is that the document itself spells it "REINHART"


Note that the document is a simple telegram. It's very easy to misspell names that have several alternative spellings, not to mention that the name belonged to a relatively obscure, not a preeminent in rank, figure. In fact, I've done it too, in several old posts that I occasionally correct. In the link I gave, Faurisson very acutely -- as usual with him -- points out the subtleties inherent to the different spellings.


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