Jewish Resettlements to the East

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Sailor
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Jewish Resettlements to the East

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:18 pm)

In a new book that just came out by Mattogno “Sonderbehandlung in Auschwitz” (Special Treatment in Auschwitz) Mattogno quotes from a Jewish underground paper Notre Voix, No. 71, April 1944:

"Thank you! A news item which should please all Jews of France was transmitted by radio Moscow. Who among us does not have a brother, sister, relative, among those deported from Paris? And who will not feel deep joy when he knows hat 8000 Parisian Jews were saved by the glorious Red Army. […] The heroic Red Army therefore can once more lay claim to the gratitude of the Jewish community of France."

Mattogno believes, that this indicates, that a considerable part of the Jewish population of Western Europe (France, Belgium and the Netherlands) was deported through Auschwitz to the East since the second half of the year 1942.

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Re: Jewish Resettlements to the East

Postby Rutger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:17 am)

Sailor wrote:a considerable part of the Jewish population of Western Europe (France, Belgium and the Netherlands) was deported through Auschwitz to the East since the second half of the year 1942


The problem I have with this theory is complete absence of eyewitness accounts of any sort. Don't you think that a sudden appearance of thousands of Jews who spoke not a word of Russian would have caused quite a stir among local Russian/Belorussian/Ukrainian population? I have traveled in those areas a lot and never once heard anything like that mentioned by old people. I have also never met anyone who claimed to be a descendant of a resettled Belgian or French jew.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:35 am)

Rutger's casual visits to "those areas" are hardly reliable, verifiable surveys. The numbers involved would have easily blended into populations of millions. Jewish settlements (shtetls) were in abundance in these eastern areas which would have allowed for easy integration.
And ofcourse there is no evidence they were ever killed, which renders the point moot.

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Postby Rutger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:47 am)

My opinion is just that - an opinion. I do not claim to have conducted a "reliable verifiable" survey of those areas. However, since there are no surveys showing that jews were resettled either, the argument cannot be proven one way or another.

Jewish settlements (shtetls) were in abundance in these eastern areas which would have allowed for easy integration.

I disagree, French and Belgian jews were for the most part assimilated secular jews, if anything, they would have stuck out in an Eastern European shtetl like a sore thumb (not to mention a previoulsy brought-up point that none of them spoke Russian and most of them did not speak Yiddish)
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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:21 pm)

Mattogno mentioned as a source for this a book: "La presse antiraciste sous l'occupation hitlerienne", Paris 1950.

If these Jews were liberated by the Soviets as stated, I would assume that they went home after the war, i.e. to France, Belgium etc.

In this case it should be possible that the story is backed up by returning survivors. I am not aware of this though.

It is really a problem.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:27 pm)

So, if they were 'secular Jews' they would have blended in seamlessly within the general population of millions, thank you.

The communists, as far as I know, did not keep records of who was 'Jewish', making a survey of the region problematic. Ofcourse we do know that Europe was awash with Jews after the war and that Palestine received millions of them.

What really matters here is the fact that there is no evidence that the Jews in question were murdered, and no evidence has been presented. If Rutger believes that the Jews in question were murdered then I cahllenge him to present his evidence.

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Postby Rutger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:49 pm)

Hannover wrote:So, if they were 'secular Jews' they would have blended in seamlessly within the general population of millions, thank you.


Hannover, I dont know where you live, but imagine that 10,000 Spaniards who speak not a word of English have been resettled in your area. Would they "blend seamlessly" with the general population? Methinks not.

The communists, as far as I know, did not keep records of who was 'Jewish'


Of course they did. Soviet passports and birth certificates always mention nationality (birth ceritficates, in addition to that, mention the nationality of mother and father)

If Rutger believes that the Jews in question were murdered then I cahllenge him to present his evidence


What I believe is quite irrelevant in this case. Forum rules state: "Each thread represents a separate point, a post to a thread must be pertinent to that point". A discussion about whether these jews were murdered would be a topic for another thread, since this one deals with resettlement.

In any case, "I dont see any tangible evidence that these jews were resettled" does not equal "I think these jews were murdered". All I am saying is that I dont see any evidence that proves or disproves the resettlement theory. Like Sailor said, it is a problem...
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:28 pm)

"in your area"? What in my immediate neighborhood or within the vast spaces of eastern Europe? The poplulations in those areas were equally vast. Sorry old boy, a few thousand 'secular Jews' could easily blend in. Then if they were sent back to France as the story implies, well, that shoots down your whole premise.

I see you changed the topic from religion to 'nationality', any remaining Jews in the area that did not return to France...ahem...would be classified as Soviets since they would indeed be considered that. Soviet passports would not distinguish 'country of origin' of those they issued Soviet passports to, they would simply be Soviets. The Soviets did not keep track of who was a 'Jew' and changing the topic will not change that fact.

There is no 'problem' based upon what I stated. The Jews in question were not murdered and no innuendo can change that. It is revealing that you unwilling/unable to defend your innuendo with evidence. Why do you hesitate?

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Postby Rutger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:49 pm)

Hannover wrote:I see you changed the topic from religion to 'nationality', any remaining Jews in the area that did not return to France...ahem...would be classified as Soviets since they would indeed be considered that. Soviet passports would not distinguish 'country of origin' of those they issued Soviet passports to, they would simply be Soviets. The Soviets did not keep track of who was a 'Jew' and changing the topic will not change that fact


I guess you have never seen a Soviet passport then. In the Soviet Union, being "jewish" was not a matter of religion but nationality. I guess "nationality" might sound a little confusing for someone not familiar with Soviet realities, perhaps "ethnicity" would be a better word. In other words, a Soviet passport did not say that someone was "soviet", it explicitly stated if the person was "jewish", "russian", "estonian", "tartar" and so on.

Please do not try to imply anything that I am not saying. These jews being or not being murdered is outside the scope of the argument. We are having a discussion about resettlement and I am trying to understand two things:
- if these jews were indeed resettled and then went back to their respective countries, where is a single survivor story that confirms this? Can someone please point me to one or to any source that mentions one?
- something I saw on another forum and always wanted to understand: if this was indeed the case, why was resettlement not used by Nazis as a defense during the Nuremberg Trial, considering that their lives were at stake?
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:17 pm)

But why should a "survivor" confirms this? Survivor of what? Deportation? Of which there were millions deported, Jews & Gentile alike. There's no reason to confirm anything. They are safe and well and were just a small number of those moved around during WWII. No big deal.

I'll defer to you on the passport bit for now. It's my opinion that area of residence was given. IOW, a Jew from the Ukraine was considered Ukrainian, I'll check.

Those at Nuremberg were accused of specific crimes, they were not accused of simply deportating Jews, they were accused of murdering them in specific way and therefore a defense of 'Jews were just deported', which everyone knew, was useless. Nuremberg falsely took judicial notice of specifics such as absurd 'gassings', the alleged 'mass shootings', and the false accusations of millions of Jews being murdered. The accused had to respond to the specifics of the accusation which put them in a impossible position, since the court, without evidence, accepted the assertions via judical notice. But as you say, this a different topic...which I will gladly address in a separate thread. Try it.

Do you believe the Jews in question were murdered? Do tell.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:30 pm)

Somehow it all hangs together: the alleged killings, body disposal and deportations.

All I can say is, that I have a problem with concepts of extermination camps with gas chambers using Zyklon B or Diesel exhaust fumes. But I am very flexible on this and change my mind if proven wrong.

Also the mass graves in the locations of the extermination camps seem to be a problem.

If these Jews were deported to these camps and never heard of again, I have to assume that they were taken somwhere else where they perished. It is that simple.

Deportation to Russia comes to mind simply because that is what the Nazis indicated in various reports like the Wannsee Report and others.

There exists some documentary evidence of resettlements to Russia though, but nothing like "of several millions". It sounds more like "several thousands".

A friend of mine, she is Jewish from Russia, told me that Jews had and have to be registered with the authorities as "Jews" in that country. Also that the country is quite anti-Semitic, at least in Siberia, where she is from

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:41 pm)

Rutger wrote: I guess you have never seen a Soviet passport then. In the Soviet Union, being "jewish" was not a matter of religion but nationality. I guess "nationality" might sound a little confusing for someone not familiar with Soviet realities, perhaps "ethnicity" would be a better word. In other words, a Soviet passport did not say that someone was "soviet", it explicitly stated if the person was "jewish", "russian", "estonian", "tartar" and so on.


How did the Soviets deal with the Mischlinge problem?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:53 pm)

Sailor said:
Also the mass graves in the locations of the extermination camps seem to be a problem.


I believe he meant the lack of mass graves.

There were indeed 'millions' of people, Jews & Gentile alike, who were deported.

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Postby Rutger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:58 pm)

Dear Hannover, please dont tell me what is and isnt in the Soviet passport, I carried the damn thing. :lol: (I am originally from the USSR)
It was called the "fifth column" as ethnicity was the fifth thing to be mentioned in the passport after name and date of birth. The practice was discontinued only after the Soviet Union fell apart.

Here is a link from a reference site though if my word is not enough
http://reference.allrefer.com/country-g ... on128.html
The Soviet Constitution, in theory, describes the regime's position regarding nationalities and religions. It states that every citizen of the Soviet Union is also a member of a particular nationality, and every Soviet passport carries these two entries


To answer your question whether I believe these jews were murdered, I simply dont know. I am not prone to rash judgements and prefer to make up my mind only after I have seen solid evidence from both sides. In this matter, I am still undecided.
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Postby Rutger » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:05 pm)

Hebden wrote:How did the Soviets deal with the Mischlinge problem?


The nationality listed in the passport was, in most cases, that of the father. Later on, in the 1970s and 80s, people of mixed ethnic background had ability, however limited, to decide which nationality they want listed (basically it all depended on the mood of a government bureaucrat issuing passport that day).
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