Things changed for me... [MAYBE NOT] Muehlenkamp

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Drew J
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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:19 pm)

Drew J wrote:http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=38258
As shown here, the extermination theorists have abandoned the diesel engine theory. Especially in regads to Sobibor and those three gas masters who were former German SS men that testified to non diesel engines.

But yeah, as for Treblinka, it still seems to be the case.

TREBLINKA:
Eli Rosenburg (1047 affidavit)
talked about "exhaust fumes of a single diesel engine

Rememeber how I talked about those two officers from one camp who wrote about diesel engines in an affidavit? And how it was likely they were fed that story? Let's think about this. If Muehlenkamp and co. say that the diesel issue is irrelevant because we have people from Sobibor who were in a better position to see and touch the engines say they were petrol and not diesel, then it would mean Burg's arguments about Nazis never trying to use diesel engines due to their inability to actually kill is still correct. But then that means this Rosenburg affidavit about Treblinka using a diesel engine is false as well.

Yankel Wiernik author of A YEAR IN TREBLINKA
motor from a Soviet tank used in Treblinka. He does not say it was diesel. So this looks promising in the eyes of extermination theorists.

So we have an affidavit claiming a diesel engine. Then we have the eyewitness Weirnik who gave the world the first real visual reconstruction of what the camp looked like. He fogot to mention it was diesel. Maybe because it wasn't. So once again, bullshit affidavits that were likely coerced. Now you understand why I said what I said about those other two Ukranina guards from Treblinka Leleko and Malakon who claimed in an affidavit that diesel engines were used. No description. No technical elaboration. Just the phrase 'diesel engine.' That they were likely coerced.

Boy, the contradictions and frauds just keep piling up don't they?

Drew J
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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:34 pm)

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... j-and.html

Monday, September 28, 2009
So how did yelping cowards "Drew J" and Greg Gerdes react ...
to the challenges in my article The Old Chimp and his Apprentics ?

Please keep in mind Roberto, that any lengthy response to me undercuts your insults in calling me pathetic and undercuts your attempts to smear me as a coward and evasive man simply because I won't show up on vnn or rodoh. Any lengthy response to me proves my point that I don't have to register at those places to banter back and forth with you. Therefore a few of your comments I will get to later are obsolete at best and self refuting at worst. Let's get going though.

Let's first look at Drew J's pathetic yelping in his post of Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:27 pm on page 5 of the Cesspit thread Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT].

Drew J
I got tired of responding to Muehlenkamp's comments because as I said elsewhere on this board, he can battle with Mattogno over math equations, and wood requirements all he wants. He can battle all he wants about what was possible.


Read: Drew J has realized that he has no arguments against my shredding of Mattogno's pathetic attempts to make believe that what becomes apparent from the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence to mass murder at Belzec was physically/technically or logistically impossible, and thus decided that it is safer for him to play the infantile "show me just one this and that" – game taught to him by his mentor "Pepper" a.k.a. Greg Gerdes.

Oh eyewitness evidence. You mean like to the Belzec diesel engine that your very own Sergy said was not a reliable source about the diesel engine. Because in your own view, the diesel issue is dead. Since you missed it, let me show you where I summarized Sergy's list of witnesses and then further showed how full of shit and problematic they were. With the help of Mr. Burg of course.
viewtopic.php?p=38258#p38258

As I said earlier, I don't deny you the possiblity about correcting Mattogno on some minor math equations. I won't deny that you may be worthy of some more red text. But as I said, that is about relations of ideas, and not physical, empirical matters of fact. You have to show instead of tell. Naturally, that pisses you off.

Drew J
The point is, can he prove it.



Definitely so. What becomes apparent from all known evidence without any evidence pointing to an alternative scenario is proven by such evidence to have happened, except insofar as it was physically, technically or logistically impossible. Mattogno has gone out of his way to demonstrate such physical, technical or logistical impossibility. And he has failed disastrously.

Again, show. Don't tell. Come from the relations of ideas and connect them with the physical realm of matters of fact please.

No, I have no access to "photo, video or lab" evidence supporting Prof. Kola's drawings and descriptions of what he found in the soil at Belzec. But that doesn’t mean such "photo, video or lab" evidence does not exist, only that it hasn’t been made accessible to the public. In fact, Prof. Kola tells his readers on pages 10/11 of his Belzec book where the kind of evidence mentioned by Drew J is probably kept (emphases mine):

So what are you guys waiting for then? Why hold out and give revisionists fuel for the fire?

Directed by that need The Council of Protection of Memory of Combat and Martyrdom turned in 1997 to the Archaeological and Ethnological Institute of Nicholas Copernicus University in Toruń with a request of conducting probing archaeological works at the territory of the camp in Bełżec. The excavation started in autumn 1997 and was carried on in spring and autumn 1998 and in autumn 1999. The result of the excavation works was a detailed archaeological documentation together with the basic report delivered to The Council of Protection of Memory of Struggle and Martyrdom as to the principal, together with the preliminary reports. The other, non archaeological documentation collected simultaneously were chemical analysis and microscope studies of samples taken during the probing works. They were made to verify the conclusions emerging from archaeological analysis.

Sounds good. So let's see it. This 'detailed documentation' you bolded better not refer to his mere artistic depictions for that simply will not cut it. You know it and the fact that you admit to it is shown by the other fact that you have tried to offer better by the second set of bolded letters. But again, where is the published chemical analysis to prove those are human remains as was depicted in those drawings by Kola? Don't tell. Show.

So if Drew J is interested (which I doubt) in seeing "photo, video or lab" evidence showing the accuracy of Prof. Kola’s drawings and descriptions of his core drill finds at Belzec, he should direct himself to the Archives of the Council of Protection of Memory of Combat and Martyrdom (Rada Ochrony Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa - ROPWiM) in Warsaw, Poland.

Since I don't have the money to travel, it would nice if they could get off their asses like Hilberg and actually publish something to prove it instead of hoarding it for themselves and demanding that we believe in spite of not seeing the evidence ourselves. If it exists, publish it in Skeptic or some sort of Archaeology Today magazine or whatever. As I said, there is no excuse for hanging on to evidence if you have it.

Now, why on earth should I have to prove to anyone the accuracy of what a renowned professional archaeologist like Prof. Kola wrote in his report about Belzec, moreover as Prof. Kola's finds are matched by all documentary and eyewitness evidence to what happened at that place, and also by earlier investigations of the physical evidence? The contents of Prof. Kola’s reports are at least prima facie evidence that Prof. Kola found what he described, and it is for howlers like Drew J to provide evidence pointing to some sort of manipulation in Prof. Kola’s reports if they want to reverse the burden of proof. So far they haven't provided such evidence. The absence of core sample photos in Prof. Kola report is no evidence to any manipulation. It's not even an indication in that direction.

It does beg the question as to why the evidence is being locked up and withheld from the rest of the world if it will put revisionists out of business once and for all? You can ramble on all you want Muehlenkamp about supposed eyewitness testimony (which include diesel engines from Gurstein that not even your buddy Sergy will say isn't questionable), and talk about "detailed archaeological documentation" and "chemical analysis" all you want. The point is, if they even exist, you better show us. Somebody better show us. You better quit complaining about us needing evidence.

Drew J
So in other words, Muehlenkamp might as well spend the rest of his time arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.



What cowardly bigmouths like Drew J do not understand (unlike their more intelligent gurus like Mattogno) is that the ball is in their court. It is up to them to discredit the evidence exclusively pointing to mass murder by demonstrating that mass murder and body disposal as becomes apparent from the evidence was physically, technically or logistically impossible. Mattogno has tried and failed. Drew J is too cowardly and incompetent to even try.

You must mean the evidence that's being apparently locked up and sat on in Poland that no one is allowed to see. :lol:

Drew J
He also says he has no way to respond to me since he can't post at codoh. Funny he how claims he can't respond to me, yet he just admitted that he responded to my codoh belzec stuff over at rodoh and he has now devoted two blog entries to me in the past week.I guess his actions betray his words. I guess he can't keep his thoughts straight.


Poor Drew J, who does he think he's impressing by playing dumb? (Well, there are enough cretins on CODOH to be impressed.) Of course I can comment his CODOH tirades somewhere else, like on this blog spot or on RODOH. But that's not the same as having a direct discussion on the same forum, which was what I clearly referred to when I wrote the following:

One wonders why this fellow insists in spouting nonsense about me and my arguments on a forum to which (as he knows or should have realized by now) I have no access, instead of confronting me on the RODOH forum or another forum where I can respond to him directly.

Nice try Roberto, but I never denied that me being on vnn or rodoh would mean you could reply to me directly. So quit making strawmen. My point was that you were making a non issue of my being at rodoh or vnn since whether I'm there or here at codoh, you still take the time to quote and respond to me. Since that's what ultimately matters, the venue DOES NOT matter. But you are pretending it does so you can score points since all you have is a lousy eyewitness for Belzec that even Sergy disassociated from, and a claim about massive documenation and chemical analysis regarding Belzec that apparently is stuck in Poland and isn't being released. You don't sit on something you can release to prove your point to the world. Occam's Razor buddy.

Drew J
I don't see why I should waste time with him on vnn or rodoh.



Well, one good reason is the cowardly behavior you have shown so far by mouthing off about me to readers unlikely to see what I have to say about your mouthing, my friend. And you can be sure that it won't be a waste of time for any of us or for our audience, for I'll be exposing the imbecility of your "Revisionist" arguments (if such they can be called), and you will be efficiently contributing to that worthy undertaking.

Kind of like your attempting to do now for your audience. In other words, what I said earlier was true. So I will repeat:

My point was that you were making a non issue of my being at rodoh or vnn since whether I'm there or here at codoh, you still take the time to quote and respond to me. Since that's what ultimately matters, the venue DOES NOT matter. But you are pretending it does so you can score points since all you have is a lousy eyewitness for Belzec that even Sergy disassociated from, and a claim about massive documenation and chemical analysis regarding Belzec that apparently is stuck in Poland and isn't being released.

So how about it, Drew J? Will you grow some balls or not?

Nice try. Read the blue text. Your continued response to me on your blog proves my point and undercuts your feeble attempts at insulting me and making mountains out of mole hills.

Drew J
Why? So he can act like a fundamentalist Christian who demands an atheist who wrote a good article say exposing the kalam cosmological argument over to his board just so he can insult him and continue to waste time dodging Treblinka questions?



No, you yelping coward. So I can show you acting like a fundamentalist Christian demanding proof of the non-existence of God from an atheist who points to the fact of there being no evidence to God’s existence and all known evidence pointing in the opposite direction. And so I can answer all your "Treblinka questions" like I answered the same questions asked by your mentor Greg Gerdes a.k.a. "Pepper" before, and then ask you some Treblinka questions of my own which unlike yours will be pertinent questions, and which you will run away from just like chicken-shit Gerdes ran away from well over 200 questions I asked his "tfsfcsupporter" sockpuppet in our RODOH discussions, not to mention the many questions he left unanswered before on Topix and the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka. That will be the show, my friend. After what I've seen from you so far, I'm not surprised that you're afraid of it.

So now I'm trying to reverse the burden of proof? Funny how me simply demanding that you show what you are talking about when it comes to "detailed archaeological documentation" and "chemical analysis" about Kola's work is reversing the burden of proof. In reality, I'm just asking you to show your work and show what you're talking about. Telling me exists is one thing. Showing and proving me is a whole other thing.

Remember my blue text? That point illustrates how there is nothing stopping you from answering those thirty treblinka questions. You don't need us to be on the same board you are on since you don't need me to be on vnn or rodoh to respond to me the way you are now. As I said, any lengthy response to me undercuts what you're trying to do - ala, what I showed in my blue text. So you can brag all you want about being able to answer Treblinka questions, but bragging is just bragging. As for that TOPIX link, we on codoh right now are trying to verify that one particular photo you mentioned in your second last blog entry actually came from Kola. Maybe you could help us out and prove it. Or are you going to balk on that like you do with regards to merely reciting things about Kola's "detailed archaeological documentation" and "chemical analysis" that we still haven't been shown.

Now this gets us to a few interesting questions, namely the following:

1. What exactly is the Polish article about the Gold Rush in Treblinka supposed to prove, and who said so?

2. What "low" standards of proof do you think this article would meet, and who applies such standards?

3. What are your "high" standards of proof, and who (other than "Revisionists" when it comes to anything that goes against their articles of faith) apply such "high" standards of proof? Are you talking about the standards of proof applied at a criminal trial under a constitutional state's defendant-friendly procedural rules, which are the highest standards known to me?

Kind of like the western Nuremburg trials which accepted unscientific affidavits from people like Hoess who was tortured or from those two Ukranian guards who were obviously fed that line about diesel engines. Leleko and Malakon.

If not, please explain in detail what would be sufficient to meet your "high" standards, and what (other than your desire to protect your articles of faith against inconvenient evidence) those standards are based on.

I already have in a little scenario I wrote that was basically a reducition ad absurdum to be used against the Polish article about the great gold robbery.


Drew J
I don't think so. If he can prove his case, he'll do it on his blog entry instead of bitching about how he has to reply on his blog entry to guys like me. If he doesn't like responding to people by way of his blog, then why does he even have a blog?


That’s just the kind of piss-poor excuse I would have expected from a yelping coward like you, Drew J.

It irritates you so much, the logical point I successfully illustrated that I have now bolded in blue this second time around with you on this issue, that you can only just call me names. :lol:

First of all, "my" case is that of established historiography, and that case had been proven by the reasonable standards of both historiography and criminal justice long before I even started looking into these issues.

Oh yeah, the holocaust cretins like Michael Shermer. Yeah, that counts. All talk and no evidence is what he's about. :lol:

Second, the blog (which, incidentally, is not mine – I’m just one of several contributors) is for writing articles about pathetic "Revisionist" objections to the evidence that has satisfied historians, criminal investigators and judges throughout the world over the decades, in order to show to whoever might be interested how pathetic these objections are, and with a focus on book-writing gurus like Mattogno & Graf rather than on little internet howlers like Drew J.

The blog is not about responding to me, yet you use it to respond to me. :D

Though it allows for comments, the blog is not meant to be or replace a discussion forum. For that there are places like RODOH.

I can answer those thirty treblinka questions but I will only do so under my conditions rather than do it simply because I have this revisionist cloud hanging over my head. Now who's being childish?

Drew J
Like I predicted, you would simply repeat yourself if I registered on VNN and complain about how others won't accept your low standards of proof, ala, the polish grave robbing article which basically went like this back in the forties. "Hey we have some guys who dug up Jewish remains. Their teeth and their gold." "Why that's great work partner. Let's photograph this evidence like a normal person trying to document evidence of any crime would so we can prove to the world what happened at Treblinka." "No, I have a better idea, let's skip photographing the actual evidence and just photograph the perps." Makes little sense right.


What actually makes little sense is the infantile nonsense written by Drew J.The Polish article contains or mentions rather interesting evidence (including but not limited to photographs)

In other words, just witness testimony. Keep going...

to the fact that the site of the former Treblinka extermination camp was the subject of intensive robbery-digging after the war, which it wouldn't have been but for the mass murder that had occurred there and that a wealth of documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence points to, with not a shred of evidence pointing in another direction.

So because these people believed the hype, it was therefore true. What pathetic illogic. :lol:

Drew J
But as I said at the bottom of page four, it makes no sense to not document something you would want to or should if you have the opportunity to do so. Unless there is of course nothing to photograph.


Or unless written documentation was considered sufficient and nobody saw a point in photographing the objects found with the grave diggers along with the grave diggers themselves.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Sorry but no excuses are acceptable. As I said, if people can document something, then they will. Occam's Razor. Period.

And that's assuming that no such photographs were actually taken, which is not exactly a logical conclusion to be drawn from the fact that only one photograph of the police action in question survived to this day.

In other words, Drew J is wrong in assuming that no other photographs exist. Others might which would prove my point but I don't have them and don't know where they are or even if they exist. I'm just making shit up on the fly. I'm just making an argument from ignorance.

But then, who would expect "Revisionist" knuckleheads to apply anything resembling logic?

I don't know. Much more bigger, illogical, knuckleheads like you? :lol:

Drew J
AOh yeah they have written testimonies about all the alleged stuff dug up by graverobbers at Treblinka, but that's not good enough.



Because Drew J says so

No because common sense says so as my scneario about photos and lack thereof explained. I recommend you stop right there in your tracks Roberto before you attempt to rehash your argument from ignorance that I just had to shoot down.

Drew J
One case out of many was the fact that after no one believed the kabbalistic six million figure in world war one, Ilya Ehrenburg a Soviet propagandist promoted the six million figure after the second world war. This was the same man who admitted to atheist Jew Joseph Burg in the forties that he saw no evidence of gas chambers at Auschwitz. Yet, Ehrenburg didn't know at the time, that years later Joseph Burg would support the revisionist cause and testify under oath in a Canadian court in the Zundel 1985 trial that Ehrenburg privately confessed to him that he saw no evidence of gas chambers. Now we can understand why Burg, who apparently betrayed his own Jewish people was denied burial in a Jewish cemetary.


Drew J must have been eagerly swallowing some mendacious and particularly insane "Revisionist" rubbish. Maybe someone should tell the poor soul that

a) There was no "kabbalistic six million figure in world war". In the 31 October 1919 issue of The American Hebrew there appeared an article headed The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop!, written by Martin H. Glynn, former Governor of the State of New York. The author was lamenting the poor conditions under which European Jews were living after World War I. Glynn referred to these conditions as a potential "holocaust" and asserted that "six million Jewish men and women are starving across the seas". "Revisionists" have given further proof of their imbecility by using this somewhat over-dramatizing call for helping impoverished European Jewry ("We may not be their keepers but we ought to be their helpers.") to claim that the "six million figure" of Jews murdered by the Nazis was brought up after World War II bearing in mind Glynn’s 1919 article, or something like that.

Notice what he does. He quotes me as talking about that six million claim from 1919. He then calls it rubbish. Then he proceeds to say that something is in the article. The very thing THAT I AND OTHERS HAVE SAID IS IN THERE. Notice that tactic? Write something off as stupid, then go into a spiel about what the article REALLY SAYS, and then have it say what I said it said, except then you can take credit for getting the article correct since you made a pre-emptive measure of calling what I said about the article rubbish. Here's a hint for you Roberto. Don't contradict yourself by calling something rubbish and then saying the article says exactly what revisionists have said that it said. And yes it is kabbalistic. You are just an ignoramus or a gatekeeping cover artist.

THE FIRST SIX MILLION. WHY THEY CHOSE THE NUMBER SIX.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5642

b) The "six million figure after the second world war" did not come from Ehrenburg but was a rounding-up of the sum of demographic losses established for each affected country by the Institute of Jewish Affairs in New York in June 1945 and by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in April 1946, these demographic studies being corroborated by evidence to the Nazis' genocidal program compiled in the document collection Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression Volume 1 - Chapter XII - The Persecution of the Jews.

Straman. I never said it "came from him." Others have. However he did promote it. Split hairs all you want, he's still got blood on his hands for lying about the six million.

c) Joseph Burg was a raving "Revisionist" lunatic and liar, thus a miserable source to rely on about whatever Ehrenburg is supposed to have told him.

So let me get this straight. You want to abide by the rules that the west has set down regarding evidence and the standards that are in courts and trials for example. Yet when I use that evidence in the case of Burg, you disregard it. You are cherry picking because you can't handle how Burg exposed to the world what a fraud Ehrenburg was who knowingly lied about the six million and about gas chambers. Consult the book on the Zundel trial.
http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/falsenews.toc.html
Edited by Barbara Kulaszka
There were tens of thousands of pages of transcripts from that trial and Barbara condensed a lot of it. So what you are saying is that Burg either lied under oath when he exposed Ehrenburg as a liar or that the transcripts are faked/don't exist or that Babs made it up. Clearly, you are grasping at straws because you can't handle what Burg stated under oath on the public record. Punkass. :lol:

d) Based on documentary and eyewitness evidence, West German criminal justice authorities have conducted a total of 912 trials involving 1,875 defendants between 1945 and 1997, regarding crimes committed at a huge number of camps and other crime locations. Some of these trials involved the interrogation of dozens or even hundreds of eyewitnesses, and the testimonies of these eyewitnesses were subject to careful scrutiny by prosecutors, by defense attorneys and by judges with a marked tendency to apply the in dubio pro reo principle (see my articles Jürgen Graf on Criminal Justice and Nazi Crimes, More Fun With Ugly Voice Productions (Part 1) and Meet Karl Frenzel). Many of these testimonies were found to be essentially reliable following such scrutiny, many were not. I submit that "Revisionists" haven’t proven even a small fraction of these witnesses to have been liars (and not just mistaken about one or the other detail), if they have proven any eyewitness to have lied at all.

So now that you have dumped the western trial court rules of evidence given under oath standard for Burg (just because you didn't like what he exposed), you can pick it back up again. Double standards abound with holocaust monger Roberto Muehlenkamp.


...more to come.

Drew J
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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:36 am)

Gerdes
One hundred grand for locating / proving the existence of just one grave that contains just one tenth of one percent of the alleged mass murder. Pretty simple huh?



If Gerdes were reasonable enough and not too cowardly to accept as evidence what a US court of justice would accept as evidence that there is at least one mass grave containing at least "one tenth of one percent" of the "alleged" mass murder at Sobibor and Treblinka, it would be easy indeed. If, on the other hand, Gerdes accepts as evidence nothing short of a certain amount of bone fragments or teeth being unloaded at his doorstep together with a certificate of provenance, it's everything other than easy. And if Gerdes is so cowardly and dishonest as not to reveal what evidence would meet his challenge requirements, then his challenge is a hoax pure and simple, as anyone with two ounces of brain inside his skull should be able to see.

As this post from Pepper shows, you have said before what you are saying now. That Gerdes has never specified what he would accept.
viewtopic.php?p=38303#p38303
In the words of Pepper, "It's plain as day what nafh is asking for. Looks like Muehlenkamp has been caught in yet another lie."

Gerdes
Is Muehlenkamp trying to imply those camps were once part of the money challenge but are not because apparently he has evidence on you?
Now here we go. The only real answer isn't a real answer. Its yes and no.
Were they once part of The Final Solution Forensic Challenge?
Yes.
Does he "have evidence on me?"
LOL! Not on your life Drew. If I recall correctly (nafcash went through many changes for its first few years, the challenge once even included Babi Yar. And it's going to be tough for me to rember how everything changed and why without doing a lot of digging through a lot of old forum posts. I'll do the best I can though.) roberta had over two years to submit evidence on the chelmno and belzec camps.


Actually I wrote my first blog about Gerdes on 15 May 2008 and started debating Gerdes on Topix in that month. By the end of that month, Gerdes decided to move the discussion (or most of it) to the "Vanguard New Network" forum, where he opened the thread Archaeological Investigations of Treblinka. My acceptance of the "challenge" was confirmed in my post # 596 on 12 July 2008. In my post # 777 on that thread, written on 22 July 2008, I listed all the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence I had so far collected for the four Nazi extermination camps Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, much of which I had already shown before on VNN and/or Topix.


Let's go to 777. Roberto begins by talking about Treblinka. He basically quotes a Mattogno Treblinka book passage which in his blog on Treblinka, he bolded it.

The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

That was basically his first source. Strange how there is just the word of that source that Mattogno quoted at length in his Treblinka book. He seems to be doing what he did with his Belzec book where he gave Kola too much credit and took his artistic depictions at his very word instead of challenging him really hard on it like Hannover and Gerdes have done in the past. His second source talks about things that "could easily be mass graves" but I'm afraid 'could' isn't science.

This is his third source on his VNN 777 post.
Document mentioned in Stephen Potyondi’s article under http://www.holocaust-history.org/operat ... -treblinka , emphasis mine:
A final document, though it gives no exact indications of numbers, is illustrative when it comes to giving an idea of just how many Jews were being killed. It is the remark of the Wehrmacht commander of Ostrow recorded in the first war diary of the General Quartermaster of the Military Commander in the Generalgouvernement on 24 October 1942.

It reads: "OK Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air."51

Ostrow, it is significant to point out, was 20 kilometres from Treblinka.

A scan of this document can be viewed under

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/akt ... ka/images/

What do you guys think on codoh? Genuine? Or forged?

Here is Muehlenkamp's fourth source in his 777 post on VNN.

Source Four
Deposition of Franz Suchomel, referred to in the judgment at the 1st Düsseldorf Treblinka trial that is quoted under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/2503/t ... Trial.html , my translation:
In what orders of magnitude they were working at Treblinka furthermore becomes apparent from a telling account by the defendant Suchomel about the opening of a corpse pit. As he credibly states, he once was in the upper camp at the beginning of 1943, when one of the gigantic corpse pits was being opened because the corpses were now to be burned. On this occasion, Suchomel further states, his comrade Pötzinger, the deputy commander of the death camp, told him that this one corpse pit alone contained about 80,000 corpses.

What do you guys think on codoh? Genuine confession? Or 'extracted' ?

Source Five

Photos taken by Treblinka II deputy commander Kurt Franz, assessed by Alex Bay under http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/: [correct link: http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/ ]
A mass grave can be seen close up in Figure D-1. It is evicent in the picture that the horizons caused by the layering of different colored soils. These horizons can also be seen in other Kurt Franz pictures and they serve to reveal grave pits at a greater distance. They can be seen in figures D4 and D5. An enlargement of the area in which layering can be seen may be found in Figure D-5. The white arrows in D4 point to a deep excavation. The two pictures in the figure compose an inadvertent stereo pair. Viewing the image in this mode permits one to see the small region common to the two images in relief. A nearly vertical wall rises in the v-shaped area framed by the soil being excavated. Layering can also be seen. Figure D5 is an enlargement and the entire extent of an excavation can be seen. In this image the layering is not really visible, although the rim of the excavation is easy to see. It turns out that the grave appearing in these last two figures is the same one.


Figure D1
Image

Figure D4
Image

Figure D5.
Image

Mass graves, but no bodies photographed. Just like how the polish article about gold theft is missing the most important photographs that would help its case. This is proof? Get real.

Source Six
Documents mentioning robbery-digging of the Treblinka graves, quoted in the Polish newspaper article translated under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/92506/ ... eply-92506

For reasons already stated by me, this article has never proven a damn thing.

Source Seven
Interview of former Treblinka commander Franz Stangl by Gitta Sereny, quoted in Sereny, Into that Darkness, page 201, emphasis mine:
“So you didn’t feel they were human beings
“Cargo, “ he said tonelessly. “They were cargo. “ He raised and dropped his hand in a gesture of despair Both our voices had dropped. It was one of the few times in those weeks of talks that he made no effort to cloak his despair, and his hopeless grief allowed a moment of sympathy.
“When do you think you began to think of them as cargo? The way you spoke earlier, of the day when you first came to Treblinka, the horror you felt seeing the dead bodies everywhere - they weren’t cargo’ to you then, were they?”
“I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity - it couldn’t have; it was a mass - a mass of rotting flesh. Wirth said, ‘What shall we do with this garbage?’ I think unconsciously that started me thinking of them as cargo.”


There are more sources, but this should do. Seven sources that have nothing to do with each other, one of them (Source Two) even provided by someone who tried to prove there had been no mass murder at Treblinka, tell us that there were mass graves at Treblinka.

How do you explain this, Mr. Gerdes?

The following is taken from Jurgen Graf's book THE GIANT WITH THE FEET OF CLAY on page 92.

Author of "Into the Darkness"...Hilberg refers to this book eight times. The Hungarian Jewess G. Sereny itnerviewed former Treblinka commandant Franz Stangl many times as he sat in a Federal German prison, where, according to her book, he confirmed the mass murder in that camp. Shortly after their last conversation, Stangl died under mysterious circumstances. G. Sereny's work is completely worthless as a historical source because she does not provide any proof that Stangl actually made the statements attributed to him. She offers no tape recordings as evidence of the conversations, and she has not published any transcripts of her alleged interviews> Since a dead man cannot complain, Sereny can put into his mouth whatever she wants to.

In addition, even if Stangl had confessed to mass gassings in Treblinka, this would have been no proof. He had appealed from his sentence to life in prison, and to dispute the claim laid to him would have been interpreted as 'obdurate denial', which would preclude a reduction in the sentence or a pardon from the start. On the other hand, those accused who confessed could hope for slight mercy from Federal German justice - as a reward for confirming the annihilation of Jews.


So in other words, the hardest evidence on Treblinka are sources one, three and four. And those are questionable at best. The first one isn't even that well supported. As I said, it was typical of Mattogno granting more than he needed to or had to.

Drew J
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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:14 am)

Muehlenkamp now gets into his Belzec evidence.

II.1.1 The diary entries of Wilhelm Cornides, English translation available under http://www.death-camps.org/belzec/rawacornides.html. Excerpts quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ec_27.html :

"At ten minutes past noon I saw a transport train run into the station. On the roof and running boards sat guards with rifles. One could see from a distance that the cars were jammed full of people. I turned and walked along the whole train: it consisted of 35 cattle cars and one passenger car.
In each of the cars there were at least 60 Jews (in the case of the enlisted men’s or prisoner transports these wagons would hold 40 men; however, the benches had been removed and one could see that those who were locked in here had to stand pressed together). Some of the doors were opened a crack, the windows criss-crossed with barbed wire. Among the locked-in people there were a few men and most of those were old; everything else was women, girls and children. Many children crowded at the windows and the narrow door openings. The youngest were surely not more than two years old.
As soon as the train halted, the Jews attempted to pass out bottles in order to get water. The train, however, was surrounded by SS guards, so that no one could come near. At that moment a train arrived from the direction of Jaroslaw; the travellers streamed toward the exit without bothering about the transport. A few Jews who were busy loading a car for the armed forces waved their caps to the locked-in people.
I talked to a policeman on duty at the railway station. Upon my question as to where the Jews actually came from, he answered:
"Those are probably the last ones from Lwow. That has been going on now for three weeks uninterruptedly. In Jaroslaw they only let eight remain, no one knows why."
I asked: "How far are they going?" Then he said: "To Belzec." "And then?"
"Poison." I asked: "Gas?" He shrugged his shoulders. Then he said only:
"At the beginning they always shot them, I believe."

6.20 pm. We passed camp Belzec. Before then, we travelled for some time through a tall pine forest. When the woman called, "Now it comes!" one could see a high hedge of fir trees. A strong sweetish odour could be made out distinctly. "But they are stinking already", says the woman. "Oh nonsense, it is only the gas", the railway policeman said laughing.
Meanwhile - we had gone on about 200 metres - the sweetish odour was transformed into a strong smell of something burning. "That is from the crematory", says the policeman. A short distance further on the fence stopped. In front of it, one could see a guard house with an SS post. A double track led into the camp. One track branched off from the main line, the other ran over a turntable from the camp to a row of sheds some 250 metres away. A freight car happened to stand on the table. Several Jews were busy turning the disc. SS guards, rifle under the arm, stood by. One of the sheds was open; one could distinctly see that it was filled to the ceiling with bundles of clothes. As we went on, I looked back one more time. The fence was too high to see anything at all. The woman says that sometimes, while going by, one could see smoke rising from the camp, but I could notice nothing of the sort. My estimate is that the camp measures about 800 by 400 metres."

A policeman in the town-hall restaurant in Chelm on 1 September 1942 said:
"The policemen who guard the Jewish transports are not allowed inside the camp; only the SS and the Ukrainian Sonderdienst (a police formation comprising Ukrainian auxiliaries) do so. Thereby, they have created a good business. Recently a Ukrainian was here who had a great wad of notes, clocks, and gold – everything imaginable. They find all of this when they gather and ship the clothing."
In answer to the question, in which way were the Jews killed, the policeman answered:
"Someone tells them that they must be deloused. Then they undress and enter a room into which at first a heatwave is let in, and thereby they already have received one small dose of gas. It is enough to act as a local anaesthetic. The rest then follows. And then they are immediately burned."


Wilhelm Cornides was part of the Wermacht. Supposedly he would write about this in his diary which he forgot to torch. In other words, the fact that his testimony could be as problematic as Gurstein's (as even Roberto's friend Sergy has admitted), we have to find scientific evidence of all the bodies that he claims were underground. I'm skeptical of the authenticity of these diaries. Have they been verified or checked by anyone?

II.1.2 The testimonies of Kurt Gerstein, Heinrich Gley, Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Franz Stangl and Alfred Schluch, excerpts quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ec_27.html and http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ec_28.html .

Gerstein:

Quote:
The naked corpses were carried on wooden stretchers to pits only a few metres away, measuring 100 x 20 x 12 metres. After a few days the corpses welled up and a short time later they collapsed, so that one could throw a new layer of bodies upon them. Then ten centimetres of sand were spread over the pit, so that a few heads and arms still rose from it here and there.

Gley:

Quote:
Then began the general exhumation and burning of the corpses; it should have lasted from November 1942 until March 1943. The burnings were carried out day and night without interruption, first at one and then at two fireplaces. One fireplace allowed for burning about 2,000 corpses within 24 hours. About two weeks after the beginning of the incineration action the second fireplace was erected. Thus on average there were burned about 300,000 bodies at the one fireplace over a period of 5 months and 240,000 bodies at the other fireplace over a period of 4 months. Of course these are only approximate estimates. It should be correct to put the total number of corpses at 500,000.
The incineration of the corpses again dug out was a process so abominable humanly, esthetically and in what concerns the smell, that the phantasy of people who today are used to live under civil conditions probably is not sufficient to imagine this horror.

Pfannenstiel:

Quote:
Through these [doors] Jewish detainees took out the corpses and threw them into large pits. The corpses were burned in these pits. […] From my point of view, the incineration of the corpses at the time was still quite imperfect.

Quote:
From the inspection site the corpses were taken directly to deep mass graves that had been dug in the vicinity of the extermination installation. When the pits were rather full, the corpses were doused with gasoline – it may have been some other flammable liquid – and were then lit. I could only determine that the corpses burned just partly. Then another layer of earth was thrown over the corpses and then fresh corpses were placed into the same pit.

Stangl:

Quote:
Wirth was not in his office, they said that he was up in the camp. The man I talked to said that one of the pits had overflown. They had thrown too many bodies inside, and the decomposition had gone too fast, so that the liquid gathering below had pushed the bodies up, to the surface and above, and the corpses had rolled down the hill. I saw some of them. – Oh God, it was awful …

Schluch:

Quote:
The size of a pit I can only indicate approximately. It should have been about 30 meters long and 20 meters wide. The depth is difficult to estimate because the side walls were at an angle and on the other hand the earth taken out had been piled up at the edge. I think, however, that the pit may have been 5 to 6 meters deep. All in all one could have comfortably placed a house inside this pit.

Gurstein and Stangl are also problematic for reasons already stated. Therefore the rest, I question. Can they be backed up by science? Can the bodies be found? That's what matters. This is why Gerdes has a hard on for asking the same questions of Muehlenkamp again. Gerdes is saying, "Don't just tell me what people said happened. Prove it with Kola or something."

II.1.3 Höfle’s radio report to Heim of 11 January 1943, translated and commented under http://www.death-camps.org/reinhard/prodecodes.html :


Quote:
The next radio message to be intercepted about “Aktion Reinhard” occurs in January 1943. Two partially intercepted messages exist, of which one is a fragment, but there can be little doubt that the two messages would have been more or less identical in their content. On 11 January 1943 at 10.00 a.m. a radio message marked “Geheime Reichssache” from SS-Sturmbannführer Höfle in Lublin addressed to SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann at RSHA Berlin was partially intercepted. At 10.05 a.m. Höfle sent a second message also marked “Geheime Reichssache” to SS-Obersturmbannführer Heim of the BdS office in Krakow; Heim was the deputy BdS under SS-Oberführer Dr Eberhard Schöngarth. The radio message to Heim is a 14 day report (for the 14 days prior to 31 December 1942) for “Einsatz Reinhart” and a year-end report, quoting a series of numbers against a series of letters. The author believes these figures provide an accurate reflection of the number of victims of the “Einsatz Reinhart” program to the end of 1942:


Letter and 14 day report year-end report

Camp i.d. to 31.12.1942 1942 total



L – Lublin 12761 24733

B – Belzec 0 434508

S – Sobibor 515 101370

T – Treblinka 10335 713555*

total: 23611 1274166

(* even radio operators and decoding people are fallible; in the decode itself the number is 71355, however this does not give proper addition, 713555 was the correct number.)

These radio messages are crucial in our understanding of the number of victims to the end of 1942 and indicate how the Reinhard camps were operating in this period. The total 1942 killing figure of 1,274,166 victims agrees completely with the same figure quoted in the so-called Korherr Report to Reichsführer-SS Himmler of 23 March 1943, where this exact number of victims “passed…through the camps in the General Government”. Peter Witte together with the author have written fully on these two messages elsewhere.18

That deathcamps.org website is dead so I don't know if they were able to shed anymore light on these alleged radio intercepts. Again, is there science behind the claims of hundreds of thousands of Jewish corpses?

II.1.4 Jäcklein’s report about "Resettlement from Kolomea to Belzec" dated 14 September 1942, quoted after Mattogno’s Belzec book and commented under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... elzec.html :


Quote:
On September 14, 1942, Zugwachtmann der Schutzpolizei (railroad guard of the protection police) Josef Jäcklein wrote a report, “Resettlement from Kolomea to Belzec.” He escorted a train of 51 cars loaded with 8,200 Jews that left Kolomea at 20:50 hours on September 10. The Jews quickly sought ways to escape, ripping the barbed wire from the openings of the cars and opening up holes in the walls, which caused Jäcklein to cable ahead to Stanislau station to have boards and nails ready. On arrival at that station, the train stopped one hour and a half for the repairs. A few stations farther along, the Jews had again ripped out the barbed wire and made new holes, so the train stopped again. Jäcklein relates:
“When the train left, I even noticed that in one car hammers and pliers were being used. Questioning the Jews as to why they still had these tools, they declared that they had been told that they would be able to put them to good use at their next destination.”
Again and again, at every stop, the train had to stop for repairs to the car walls. Finally the train arrived at Lemberg/Lwów, where Jäcklein turned over “9 cars marked L and destined for the forced labor camp at Lemberg” to SS Obersturmführer (senior lieutenant) Schulte, but another 1,000 Jews came on board. When the train moved on, escape attempts resumed. As the escort had expended all their ammunition, they had to use “stones” and “bayonets” to prevent escapes. The transport took place under catastrophic conditions. Jäcklein writes in this respect:
“The ever increasing panic among the Jews, caused by the strong heat, overloading of the cars with up to 220 Jews, the smell of corpses – 2,000 dead were counted when the train was unloaded – made the transport nearly impossible.”
The train arrived at Belzec at 6:45 p.m. the following day and was turned over to the camp authorities at 7:30 p.m.. Unloading the cars took until 10 p.m.324

Jews allegedly dying due to being cramped in a somewhat unsanitary train car. That and their attempts to escape IN AND OF THEMSELVES don't scientifically prove the existence of hundreds of thousands of bodies. This Josef Jäcklein hasn't proven anything about hundreds of thousands of corpses.

II.1.6 Goebbels’ diary entry of 27 March 1942, quoted after Prof. Browning’s expert opinion under http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/t ... owning/500 and commented under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... elzec.html :

Quote:
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said about 60 percent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 percent can be used for forced labor.

Okay, let's check that holocaustdenialontrial link to see where they talk about Goebbels.

Thirty copies of the protocol of the Wannsee Conference were made, and the only surviving copy is the one that was sent by Heydrich to the Foreign Office on January 26, 1942.89 Apparently the Reich Interior Ministry received a copy at the same time, for already at another meeting on January 29, 1942, its Jewish expert, Bernhard Lösener, made reference to the conference of January 20.90
One notable Nazi leader had not sent a representative to the Wannsee Conference, namely Heydrich and Himmler's disliked rival, Josef Goebbels of the Propaganda Ministry. It would appear that Goebbels received an expurgated version of the protocol only much later. He noted in his diary entry of March 7, 1942, concerning a report "from the SD and police regarding the final solution of the Jewish question." He noted the Wannsee Conference figure of 11 million Jews in Europe and then wrote: "They will have to be concentrated later, to begin with, in the East; possibly an island, such as Madagascar can be assigned to them after the war."91 In reality, of course, the Jews were neither going to be concentrated "later," nor sent to Madagascar after the war. The Jews of the Warthegau were already being gassed at this moment, and the gassing of Serbian Jews in the Semlin camp outside Belgrade was imminent. Moreover, the "concentration" of the Jews of Poland in the three tiny villages of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka was about to begin.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

89. Protocol of the Wannsee Conference and Heydrich cover letter to Luther, 26.1.42, in Political Archives of the German Foreign Office, Inland II 177.
(An Stelle der Auswanderung ist nunmehr als weitere Lösungsmöglichkeit nach entsprechender voheriger Genehmigung durch den Führer die Evakuierung der Juden nach dem Osten. ...Der allfällig verbleibende Restbestand wird, da es sich bei diesen zweifellos um den widerstandsfähigsten Teil handelt, entsprechend behandelt müssen, da dieser, eine natürliche Auslese darstellend, bei Freislassung als Keimzelle eines neuen jüdische Aufbaues anzusprechen ist. (In grossen Arbeitskolonnen, unter Trennung der Geschlechter, werden die arbeitsfähigen Juden strassenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt, wobei zweifellos ein Grossteil durch natürliche Verminderung ausfallen wird.
...Abschliessend wurden die verschiedenen Arten dere Lösungsmöglichkeiten besprochen...) )

90. Protocol of Ostministerium conference, 29.1.42, in: Political Archives of the German Foreign Office, Inland II 179.
91. Louis Lochner, ed., The Goebbels Diaries (New York, 1948), pp. 147-48.

Sorry but the Wansee protocols were not a plan to exterminate the Jews and serious extermination theorists pretty much have to admit it now.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=439479
So now we have to ask ourselves, why is there nothing in that holocaustdenialontrial.com link about Lublin. Where is this Goebbles diary entry really coming from then? That's because it's in Muehlenkamp's holocaustcontroversies link. In his blog he provides some quotes and gives the source as that holocaustdenialontrial link that has no mention of Lublin in it. He quotes Browning who gives a Goebbels quote.
[…]5.3.6 In short, the German documents make clear that tens of thousands of Jews were being sent to the camp at Belzec in the spring months of 1942. There was no pretense that this was a work camp, for only non-working Jews were sent there. There was no pretense that such numbers of Jews could all remain in Belzec, in a tiny village guarded by a mere 60 men. Thus the explanation given by the SS was that these Jews were "expelled over the Bug," that is sent across the border into the district of Galicia, with the guarantee that they would never return. Two factors make the acceptance of such an explanation utterly untenable.

5.3.7 First, on March 27, 1942, shortly after the clearing of the Lublin ghetto began, Josef Goebbels confided to his diary about the fate of the non-working Jews, i.e. precisely those sent to Belzec:

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said about 60 percent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 percent can be used for forced labor.

So what do you think codoh? Genuine diary? Forged? Where are the German writings in Goebbels handwriting? Can anyone comment?

II.2 Physical evidence

II.2.1 Physical evidence documented in a report dated October 12, 1945 by the Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc, Czeslaw Godzieszewski, quoted on pages 79 ff. of Mattogno’s Belzec book:


Quote:
On October 12, 1945, the Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc, Czeslaw Godzieszewski, presented an “Account of the diggings in the cemetery of the Belzec extermination camp,” in which he set down the findings from the inspection of the Belzec camp he had made that day, aided by 12 workers. In this context, he wrote:
"The opening labeled No. 1 was taken down to a depth of 8 m and a width of 10 m and attained the bottom level of the graves. During the operation, at a depth of about 2 m, we struck the first layer of ash stemming from incinerated human bodies, mixed with sand. This layer was about 1 m thick. The next layer of ash was discovered at a depth of 4 – 6 meters. In the ash removed, some charred remains of human bodies were found, such as hands and arms, women’s hair, as well as human bones not totally burnt. We also recovered pieces of burnt wood. In trench No. 1, the layer of human ash stopped at a depth of 6 meters. The opening labeled No. 2 was taken down to a depth of 6 meters. In this trench, the layer of human ash began at a depth of 1.5 m and continued down to a depth of some 5 m, with occasional breaks. Here, too, the ash contained human hair, part of a human body, pieces of clothing, and remnants of incompletely burnt bones. Openings labeled Nos. 3 and 4 were freed to a depth of 3 meters. In hole No. 4, at a depth of 80 cm, we found a human skull with remnants of skin and hair, as well as two shinbones and a rib. Furthermore, at a level of between one and three meters, these holes yielded human ash mixed with sand and fragments of incompletely burnt human bones. Openings labeled Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were dug to a depth of 2 m, but showed only human ash mixed with sand and human bones, such as jawbones and shinbones. Throughout all the excavations it was observed that the camp cemetery had already been disturbed by wildcat diggings; this is borne out by the fact that the layers of human ash are not uniform but mixed with sand. The recovered human bones; the bodily remains, which where in a state of complete decomposition; and the ash were collected in a common location to await the arrival of the district surgeon. Work was stopped at 17:30 hours."
The next day, October 13, 1945, the findings were inspected by the coroner. The subsequent report describes primarily the results of the examination performed by the judge and the coroner:
"During the inspection of the area of the extermination camp, particularly during the excavations at the place of the cemetery on October 12, 1945, a large number of human bones were found, such as skulls, parts of skulls, vertebrae, ribs, collarbones, shoulder blades, arm bones, lower legs, wrists, fingers, pelvic bones, thigh bones, lower legs, and foot bones. Some of the bones mentioned are either partly burnt or had not been burnt at all. Except for a few skulls showing rotting scalp and hair, the majority of the bones are free from soft tissue. Among the remains of human bodies recovered on October 12, 1945, we identified two forearms and a lumbar portion of the backbone with some soft tissue and traces of carbonization. The lumbar section belongs to an adult, whereas the forearms come from a child a few years old. From the size of the various bones one can conclude that they belong to persons of different age groups, from two-year-olds up to very old people, as borne out by toothless jaws and numerous dentures. Among the jawbones found there was one partially burnt specimen containing milk teeth as well as incipient permanent teeth, which indicates that it belongs to a person 7 to 8 years of age. No traces of bullet holes or other mechanical wounds were found on the skulls. The long bones show no traces either of gunshot wounds or fractures. Because of the advanced state of decomposition it was very difficult to say to what organs the recovered shapeless portions of soft tissue from human bodies might belong. In a hole dug by the local population in a search for gold and valuables, two lower legs belonging to a two-year-old child were discovered. These members are partly decomposed, partly mummified. The area of the cemetery, in particular the wildcat holes, is covered with layers of human ash of varying breadth, which stem from the incineration of human corpses and wood; they are intermingled with sand in varying proportions. The color of the ash varies between light-ash and dark gray; the ash has a heavy consistency and smells of decomposing human bodies. In the ash, charred human bones as well as pieces of charcoal are clearly visible. In the lower strata of the ash the smell of decomposition is more pronounced than in the layers nearer the surface. The hair discovered belongs mainly to women, as shown by their length and by the type of arrangement (braids and buns fixed with hairpins). In addition to natural hair, we encountered ladies’ wigs as well. With this, the inspection was terminated."

Nice description. Too bad there's no photos. Also, I thought the nazis crushed all the bones and turned them all into ash and they did this by opening up old graves. Why are there skulls around therefore?

II.2.2 Physical evidence documented in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s report headed Belzec. The Nazi Camp for Jews in the Light of Archaeological Sources. Excavations 1997-1999, which is discussed in my article starting under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...on-belzec.html, including the following:

a) Plan of archaeological probing drills, link under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...belzec_23.html

b) Plans and sections of all 33 mass graves found by Prof. Kola at Belzec, links under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...belzec_23.html

c) Schematic representations of core drill samples, links under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...007754580.html

d) Descriptions of mass graves numbered 1, 4, 13, 25, 28, 32, 3, 10, 20, and 27, quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...007754580.html

e) Descriptions of mass graves numbered 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 29, 30, 31 and 33, partially quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...belzec_30.html

II.2.3 Physical evidence documented in a furious complaint article by Rabbi Avi Weiss, available under http://www.hir.org/amcha/belzec.html and partially quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...on-belzec.html (see also articles about the Belzec memorial project under http://www.death-camps.org/belzec/belzeclawsuit.html and http://www.death-camps.org/belzec/lawsuit.html )

II.2.4 Physical evidence documented in photographs shown under http://www.death-camps.org/belzec/buildingsite.html (photos captioned "Remnants" and "Autumn 2003: Marked Mass Graves")

Depictions. Kola artistic depictions aren't good enough I"m afraid.

II.2.5 Physical evidence documented in photographs available in the archives of The Ghetto Fighters House and featured in my RODOH thread http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/5963 (captions from The Ghetto Fighters House):
The bones of Belzec camp victims, exposed after a rainfall in the area.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5250_1_web.jpg

The skulls and bones of Belzec camp victims, brought to a bunker on the grounds of the camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5252_1_web.jpg

The bones of Belzec camp victims, exposed following rainfall.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5275_1_web.jpg

The bones of Belzec camp victims that were exposed after rains.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5276_1_web.jpg

II.2.6 Physical evidence documented in air photographs of the Belzec mass graves area, assessed by Alex Bay under http://www.holocaust-history.org/belzec/deathcamp/index

I don't see hundreds of thousands there. Oh that's right. There's a lot of ash supposedly documented "in a report dated October 12, 1945 by the Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc, Czeslaw Godzieszewski" It would seem that these bones they found were the same ones Muehlenkamp gave links to. It's certainly possible.

Drew J
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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:35 am)

I'll get to his Clemno and Sobibor stuff later. Right now I'd like to keep moving.

Very soon thereafter Gerdes excluded Belzec and Chelmno from the "challenge", as I pointed out in my post # 810 on 24 July 2008:

What even a retard can see is that Gerdes excluded Belzec and Chelmno from the challenge.

Current text, 24.07.2007 12:56 hours GMT:

Quote:
THERE WAS NO TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST

Lest you think there must be some truth to the asinine pure extermination center canard

(That’s the psychology of the big-lie technique at work)

THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM

Also includes the alleged Sobibor holocaust.

Previous text, as per screenshot made on 18.07.2008 14:17 hours GMT:

Quote:
Lest you think there must be some truth to the asinine pure extermination center canard

(That’s the psychology of the big-lie technique at work)

NO GRAVES = NO TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST

Page 17 of 24 The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and ...
18-07-2008 http://www.nafcash.com/

THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM

Also includes the alleged holocausts at Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor.

So Belzec and Chelmno are not included in the challenge anymore, Mr. Gerdes?

Why is that? Did you get cold feet? Did someone tell you that Prof. Kola’s Belzec report alone, or Mrs. Golden’s article in ARCHAEOLOGY magazine, may be considered by a court of law as sufficient proof to meet the challenge requirements?


So Belzec and Chelmno disappeared from the "challenge" two days at most after I had posted a comprehensive submittal of all evidence at my disposal concerning those camps. Who wouldn't take this coincidence as an indication that Gerdes had got cold feet regarding these two camps, like I did?

Anyway, it should be as clear as can be that Gerdes shamelessly (and very dumbly, considering the online records) lied about my having "had over two years to submit evidence on the chelmno and belzec camps" and failed to do so. A full ten days elapsed between my acceptance of the "challenge" and my VNN post # 777, through which Gerdes could see what would be coming at him re Belzec and/or Chelmno if I submitted the evidence listed in that post to SKEPTIC magazine. Two days thereafter at most, Belzec and Chelmno had disappeared from the "challenge".

Gerdes
He didn't make an issue until I made the changes to simplify the challenge to include only Sobibor and Treblinka.[/b]

Of course I didn’t make an issue about Belzec and Chelmno disappearing from the "challenge" until they had disappeared, duh! As to the "simplify the challenge" crap, who does Gerdes think he is fooling?

[i]Gerdes
I'll provide evidence of that as we go on.


I’d love to see that evidence.

Gerdes
If so, I can only recall in the past the Treblinka camp being expressly stated as the only camp as part of the money challenge on the nafcash site.


And so? What matters is that all four extermination camps were included in the "challenge" when I joined it and only two were left less than two weeks later, thereby cutting my chances of meeting the "challenge" requirements and claiming the reward in half, so to say. If Gerdes were not the lying hoaxer that he is, he’d have frozen the "challenge" as it was on the day I stated my acceptance.

Gerdes
It's Treblinka and Sobibor. Express details can be found on the site.


Express details? I see lots of multi-colored hysterical hollering but not the one essential statement (which Gerdes has been conspicuously silent about so far, instead making a big fuss about a minor point of my blog that I mentioned by the way and dedicated a bracketed half sentence to):

"In order to claim the reward, the applicant must submit evidence that would be considered by a US court of justice duly applying the pertinent rules of evidence as proving beyond a reasonable doubt the location and contents of at least one mass grave at Treblinka or Sobibor containing human remains that correspond to at least one tenth of one per cent of the amount of bones, bone fragments, teeth, ashes or other human remains that can be reasonably expected to lie in the soil of the respective former camp if a minimum of between 700,000 and 800,000 Jews were killed at Treblinka and between 150,000 and 250,000 Jews were killed at Sobibor."


Gerdes
So if he is implying the money challenge used to include more than just Treblinka, would he be in fact lying?
Maybe not lying, but certainly not telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Maybe not lying, but decieving with deliberate omissions.


And what exactly would I be deliberately omitting, Mr. Gerdes?

Gerdes
It used to also include more than that. There has been a number of different challenges on the nafcash site over the years.


The only one that matters in this discussion is the one that was in place on 12 July 2008, when I accepted the NAFCASH "challenge". And was cut in half less than two weeks later.

Gerdes
It would seem to me that if nafcash is offering a reward just expressly for Treblinka, but also talks about number reduction of the dead at Belzec and Chelmno, then I can assume nafcash is not adverse to a challege on these camps either.
As I've said, Sobibor is part of the challenge. There are also challenges concerning Belzec and Chelmno that have never been taken off the table. They were ignored by roberta, shermer, golden, o'neil, etc. They were most certainly removed from The Final Solution Forensic Challenge, but the never did "disapear."


What's the difference supposed to be?

Gerdes
Roberta could still accept those challenges today and I would honor them.


Err, I accepted the "challenge" with Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno in it more than a year ago, on 12 July 2008. And how did Gerdes (here again projecting his own effeminacy, as it seems) honor my acceptance? By removing Belzec and Chelmno from the accepted challenge less than two weeks later.

Drew J
Hear that? Gerdes is not opposed to evidence on Belzec or Chelmno.


That's good news. What's he waiting for to put Belzec and Chelmno back into the "challenge" wording on the NAFH site, then?

Drew J
And apparently Roberto had years to furnish evidence but never made a stink about it until Gerdes took it down. Likely because due to nothing happening, he assumed nothing would happen. So could this Gerdes email in fact be revealing a tactic of Muehlenkamp's? Accept a challenge. Then do nothing. Then when the challege is removed due to no one fulfilling it, cry foul and cry wolf and make yourself look good? Is it possible this is the case? Could be. Could be a nice way to save face.


As I had less than two weeks to "furnish evidence" after accepting the "challenge" before Gerdes removed Belzec and Chelmno, apparently after taking a look at what the evidence submitted via SKEPTIC magazine might be, I'll attribute these speculations, which seem to project classic "Revisionist" behaviors, to the not very nimble mind of a gullible jerk who swallowed another of Gerdes' many lies.

Drew J
The main reason why I have not yet claimed the reward is known to who has been following my discussions with Gerdes and was last expressed in my post # 2089 on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka: Gerdes persistently refused to state what evidence he would accept as proof meeting the requirements for claiming the reward, running away from every question in this sense or responding with meaningless hysterical "what part of the word 'proof' do you not understand" – screams.

Again, this is Muehlenkamp complaining about people refusing to accept low standards of evidence as proof such as that barely substantiated polish article about theft of teeth and gold at Treblinka.


So now the standards of evidence applied by US courts of justice are "low standards of evidence", Drew J?

Depends on the court I guess. Some are unreasonable as shown with regards to travesties like Nuremburg where tortured Nazi confessions were acceptable. Keep in mind that while you talk about courts, you have simultaneously rejected the courts as standards of evidence when you ignored what Joseph Burg revealed about Ehrenburg knowingly lying, and did so without any reason or motive to lie about Illya.

Although what you have revealed is very interesting. If what you say is true, that VNN post # 777 on that thread, written on 22 July 2008, has you putting forth evidence on Belzec and Chlemno, and then a few days later, they are removed from nafcash that could look bad for Gerdes. However, this is all resting on the assumption that at the point of July 22 2008, those two camps were still on the nafcash site. And it seems that would be the case that they were on back in 2008 at that time.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/sho ... hp?t=56234
04-02-2008, 01:43 PM #1
dragonoverlord
In Grod We Trust...

"Lest you think there must be some truth to the asinine pure extermination center canard (that’s the psychology of the big-lie technique at work) THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM also includes the alleged holocausts at Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor.
"

I would like to hear from Gerdes on this matter as Roberto has brought up an interesting point.


That's it for me for now.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Mojo » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:14 am)

I'll attribute these speculations, which seem to project classic "Revisionist" behaviors, to the not very nimble mind of a gullible jerk who swallowed another of Gerdes' many lies.


Comments like these and others show that instead of actually providing evidence, they resort to childish name calling & insults. Classic "hoaxer" behaviors!

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:46 pm)

Has anyone else noticed what Muhlenkamp is doing here?

One the one hand, he's jumping up and down, throwing a temper tantrum like an insane juvenile chimp, complaining that nafcash made changes simplifying The Final Solution Forensic Challenge and demanding that they "make things the way they were" (including, I presume, changing the 1/10 of 1% back to 1%), and on the other hand, he's jumping up and down, throwing a temper tantrum like an insane juvenile chimp, crying hysterically that nafcash isn't making changes to his liking that he is demanding which would make things NOT the way they once were.

Only in the bizarro world of Hymie in Holohoaxland do we see such insane doublespeak.
Last edited by Pepper on Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:01 pm)

Mulenkamp

And so? What matters is that all four extermination camps were included in the "challenge" when I joined it



He "joined" the challenge?

All he did was publicly announce that he was accepting the challenge.

As far as I know, no one has to publicly announce that they are going to accept the challenge in order to attempt to become eligible to lay claim to the reward.

And just prior to nafcash making changes to the challenge, wasn't he publicly claiming that it was impossible to us Belzec to lay claim to the reward?

He did use the word "impossible," didn't he?

Didn't nafcash simplify things for him for that very reason?

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:33 pm)

Yep, he used the word impossible often.


Mulenkamp

“If, on the other hand, what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies, his requirements are at least very difficult to meet... First of all, it is unlikely that anyone will obtain permission to excavate any of the Belzec mass graves... Second, even if excavations were to be authorized... long and arduous archaeological work would be required... Third... how would one... accurately quantify...? I strongly doubt that this is possible... Fourth... One doesn’t have to be a cremation expert to realize that this is impossible... and that the most an expert can provide is an estimate based on assumptions that... cannot be empirically confirmed... Gerdes... [is] asking for something that is very hard if not impossible to accomplish. So which of them is it, Mr. Gerdes... will you require a precise physical quantification that, for the reasons described above, is very difficult if not impossible to accomplish?”

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 7 months ago (Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:56 pm)

Mulenkamp:

So Belzec and Chelmno disappeared from the "challenge" two days at most after I had posted a comprehensive submittal of all evidence at my disposal concerning those camps.



Does anyone know what he's talking about here?

Where was this "comprehensive submittal of all evidence at my disposal concerning those camps" submitted and who was it submitted to?


Mulenkamp:

If Gerdes were not the lying hoaxer that he is, he’d have frozen the "challenge" as it was on the day I stated my acceptance.


Then why is Mlulenkamp jumping up and down, throwing a temper tantrum like an insane juvenile chimp, crying hysterically that nafcash isn't making changes to his liking that he is demanding which would make things NOT frozen the way they once were?


Mulenkamp:


apparently after taking a look at what the evidence submitted via SKEPTIC magazine might be



Drew, is Mulenkamp saying he submitted "evidence" to skeptic magazine?

If so, he's admitting that they refused to publish it, thus, his "evidence" wouldn't have qualified him to lay claim to the reward, right?

I got to ask Mr. Gerdes about that one.


Mulenkamp

I accepted this "challenge"... but have not yet claimed the reward...The main reason why I have not yet claimed the reward is... Gerdes persistently refused to state what evidence he would accept as proof meeting the requirements for claiming the reward



But didn't he already admit that he knows he has to get his "evidence" published in skeptic magazine BEFORE he can even become eligible to lay claim to the reward?

And he says he doesn't know what evidence would be accepted as proof to meet the requirements for claiming the reward?

Has he ever told a bigger lie?

I just came across this on rodoh a few minutes ago while doing some digging:

Mulenkamp (Mr. Gerdes locates trash pits at Treblinka #443)

What an applicant has to in order to qualify for your reward… is to physically find and document a certain minimum amount of human remains in one specific mass grave.



Looks like he's been caught in another lie.
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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 7 months ago (Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:12 pm)

Let's look at this again. Mulenkamp is talking about Belzec and the nafcash challenge:

Mulenkamp

“what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies"



So he understood exactly what would be accepted as proof meeting the requirements for claiming the reward, right?


But he told Drew:


Gerdes persistently refused to state what evidence he would accept as proof meeting the requirements for claiming the reward



How many lies can this thing tell?


Mulenkamp (Talking about Belzec again)


One doesn’t have to be a cremation expert to realize that this is impossible and that the most an expert can provide is an estimate based on assumptions that cannot be empirically confirmed



So if he's claiming that it's "impossible to empirically confirm" 1% of the alleged mass murder at Belzec, then why does he want Belzec put back into the challenge?


Drew, did Mullekamp ever tell you why he refused to submit his "proof" to skeptic?

Nafcash made a special challenge up just for Mulenkamp and he refused to submit his proof, right?

I'm going to look into this some more.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:51 am)

Where was this "comprehensive submittal of all evidence at my disposal concerning those camps" submitted and who was it submitted to?

Read my long post again. It's his number 777 post at VNN. I had a look through it but only made replies to the first two camps he supposedly had hardcore evidence on. A lot of it came from diaries which talked about willful extermination of the Jews. Not least of which deal with entries from the Goebbels diary. Then there was that Wermacht man Wilhelm Cornides who had a diary too. Nizkor has reproduced extracts from Goebbles diaries. I of course question the authenticity of those diaries. Could you or anyone else comment on those diaries?

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:58 am)

More on this Goebbels' entry stuff. As for liquidation, it reminds me of something I read, probably by Graf, about how Hitler talked about Jews being annihilated if they threw Germany into a war with their international banking methods. However, the author revealed that Hitler didn't mean physical extermination, but rather political annihilation and deprivation of their power. That is what Irving is basically showing in this article too.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p-2_Irving.html
Wannsee Conference
In late 1941 Heydrich sent a message to all the relevant ministers and state secretaries calling them to a high-level conference on the Jewish question. This is the famous Wannsee Conference, which took place on January 20, 1942, at a villa in suburban Berlin. There the officials discussed how to deal with all the administrative problems of large-scale transportations of Jews. There's no reference to killing Jews, not even an indication, anywhere in the Conference record.

Goebbels was not present at that meeting because the invitation that was sent to the Propaganda Ministry was addressed to Leopold Gutterer, the Ministry State Secretary and Goebbels' number two man. Gutterer is still alive, age 92. I went to interview him two or three times before I was banned from Germany (on November 9, 1993). He told me he never got the Wannsee meeting invitation, that it was probably intercepted by Werner Naumann, who was his rival on Goebbels staff.

Although Goebbels did not hear in advance of the meeting, you'll find in Goebbels' diary -- in his entry of March 7, 1942 -- that a copy of the well-known Wannsee Conference protocol was sent to him. Nobody else has spotted this.

There were still eleven million Jews in Europe, Goebbels dictated on that day, accurately summarizing the document. "For the time being they are to be concentrated in the east [until] later; possibly an island like Madagascar can be assigned to them after the war." It all raised a host of "delicate questions," he added. "Undoubtedly there will be a multitude of personal tragedies," he wrote airily, "But this is unavoidable. The situation now is ripe for a final settlement of the Jewish question."

More chilling is another diary entry a few weeks later. On March 27, 1942, Goebbels dictates a lengthy passage about another SS document that had been submitted to him, and which appears to have been much uglier in its content. "Beginning with Lublin," he states, "the Jews are now being deported eastward from the General Government [occupied Poland]. The procedure is pretty barbaric and one that beggars description, and there's not much left of the Jews. Broadly speaking one can probably say that 60 percent of them will have to be liquidated, while only 40 percent can be put to work."

It's a very ugly passage, and it's easy to link this diary passage with everything we've seen in the movies and on television since then. He's describing "Schindler's List" here -- or is he? I don't know. All he's actually saying here is that the Jews are having a pretty rigorous time. They're being deported, it's happening in a systematic way, and not many of them are going to survive it.

When I visited the Hoover Institution library in Stanford, California, to see the portion of the original Goebbels diary that they have there, this was the first page I asked to see. And when I was in the Moscow archives to examine the glass plate copy of the diary, this was also the first plate I searched for. I knew that if the diary had actually been copied by the Nazis in Berlin, and the glass plate version in Moscow matches the text in the Hoover library, there's no way anyone could have faked it. And there it is on the glass plate in Moscow, identical. As a final clincher, this portion was also microfilmed in 1947 in New York from the text that is held by the Hoover library. So there are three different indications that this is a genuine quotation from a genuine Goebbels document.

The conclusion I draw therefore is that, between them, Speer and Goebbels started a ruthless campaign in 1941 to drive out and deport the Jews from Berlin -- Goebbels for political reasons, and out of sheer visceral hatred of the Jews, and Speer for the more mundane reasons of real estate and ambition. They didn't really care what happened to the Jews.


Even so, we must put all this in the context of the brutal war being fought on the Eastern front at the time, in which neither side was giving the other any quarter. By this time (March 1942) we British had just begun bombing German towns on a ruthless scale. The devastating aerial bombardment of Lübeck, for example, came just two days after this diary entry. It's not difficult to imagine Dr. Goebbels' attitude: "So what if Jews are being machine-gunned into pits? They had it coming to them. They declared war on us, and this is no time for sympathy and sentiment." That's the way he may well have looked at it.

By this time, ugly rumors were already circulating abroad, fuelled by British propaganda. The London Daily Telegraph quoted Polish claims that seven thousand of Warsaw's Jews were being killed each day, often in what it called "gas chambers." One of Goebbels' worried civil servants responded by telexing a request for information to Hans Frank's press office in Krakow and to the propaganda field office in Warsaw. The reassuring reply spoke of the Jews being used to construct defences and roads. Be that as it may, in Goebbels' files the original press report, which had merely summarized the British newspaper item, was rubber-stamped Geheime Reichssache, "Secret Reich Matter."

How much did Goebbels know? Among his surviving files are papers suggesting a broad general knowledge of atrocities. One is from a large collection of original Goebbels' papers on file at the Jewish Yivo institute in New York.

Reporting to Goebbels on November 11, 1942, his legal expert, Dr Hans Schmidt-Leonhardt, whom he had sent to inspect conditions in Hans Frank's Polish dominions, noted that the Warsaw police had deemed it too dangerous to visit the ghetto there; in the Krakow ghetto he had found all the Jews put to work; in Lublin the ghetto had already been cleared away, and there were now bloody disturbances. "As a Geheime Reichssache," reported the legal specialist, "Frank related to us the following characteristic recent instance: ..." But whatever this was we cannot know, because a shocked member of Goebbels' staff cut off the rest of the page.

This is something that you have to look for, this "top secret" endorsement. By contrast, the Auschwitz documents found in the Moscow archives by French researcher Jean-Claude Pressac have no "secret" classification whatsoever. But this document, with its missing half page, tells me that Goebbels knew damn well that something ugly was probably happening on the Eastern front, and that he didn't want members of his staff asking awkward questions, so he had part of the page torn off and locked away in his safe.

I sometimes wonder what his stenographer, Richard Otte, must have thought about the man whose words he transcribed day by day for this diary.

So there are the facts about Dr. Goebbels and the "final solution." If we're looking for a culprit, if we're looking for a criminal behind the "final solution" or the "Holocaust," whatever it was, for the man who started it in motion, then it was undoubtedly Dr. Goebbels first and foremost. Not Julius Streicher, not Adolf Hitler, nor any of the other Nazis. Goebbels was the moving force, and the brain behind it in every sense of the word. We still don't know if he knew what exactly happened at the other end, but then this isn't surprising, because we ourselves don't know either.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From The Journal of Historical Review, January-February 1995 (Vol. 15, No. 1), pages 2-17.
This essay is adapted from Irving’s presentation at the Twelfth IHR Conference, Sept. 1994.


Since we know Wansee was not a plan of mass extermination, but rather evacuation, it makes little sense to claim that Goebbels recieved information about a Wansee conference he didn't attend that was about evacuation, and then began writing about how a plan was being carried out to murder them, or as the holocaust mongers say, liquidate them all, IF THERE WASN'T A WANSEE PLAN TO MURDER THEM AT ALL.

Looks like another piece of 'evidence' has been taken out of context to build up the religion of holocaustianity. I'm afraid Muehlenkamp and Nizkor are going to have to try harder. We shouldn't be surprised at nizkor engaging in deceptive tactics like this as they have done it before.

by Hannover » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:15 pm

Trtsk has brought this topic up again, so here it is. Comments invited.

more:

This assertion completely ignores the numbers of Jews allegedly gassed at one time in a large underground space and the alleged time lengths, which are said to have been mere minutes....all of which would have required massive amounts of Zyklon-B and necessitated vast amounts of cyanide residue, but not the case.

There is also a deceptive standard of measurement being used, not unusual for the so called "holocaust" Industry. I have listed some urls for info. and outlined some points, parts A. & B. ...read on.

A. quick points:

from Germar Rudolf, master chemist:

"the minimum amount of Zyklon B to be introduced in these rooms would have been in the order of magnitude of ten times the amount normally used for delousing procedures"

- This false argument, "it takes more cyanide to kill insects than it does humans, hence low HCN residue in the alleged gas chambers" is refuted by Germar Rudolf here:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html

- Rudolf also destroys Robert Jan Van Pelt (fraudulent Auschwitz 'expert') and the false assertions about amounts of HCN found in the laughable, alleged 'gas chambers': http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

B. The argument is based on a false measurement standard, some points on that:

the false argument from:
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leu ... aq-04.html

"But - HCN is far more effective on warm-blooded animals (including humans) than on insects, so the period of exposure to HCN is far longer for delousing clothes than that required for homicidal gassings, and a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people instead of insects.
A concentration of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) is sometimes used, with exposure times of up to 72 hours, to kill insects, but as little as 300 ppm will cause death in humans within fifteen minutes or so."


false argument exposed:
Two different measurement standards are being used, with the pretense there is only one measurement standard.
The measurement standard used for the HCN killing insects is the measurement for killing every single insect. In other words, if there are a thousand insects on a piece of cloth or room, the measurement is for killing every single one of those thousand insects.

With the measurement for humans, on the other hand, what's used is the measurement that can kill a single human being. This measurement is extremely low, because a small percentage of humans have a very low tolerance. In other words, if there were a thousand people in a room, that concentration could kill one person out of those thousand.

The toxicological literature gives two main threshold values of poisonous substances, from Rudolf - http://www.codoh.com/found/fndgcger.html :

"The lethal dose 100%, LD100, which gives the concentration or quantity of poison required to kill all (100%) individuals of an observed species. This value is used to make sure that all individuals are successfully killed.
The lethal dose 1%, LD1, which gives the concentration or quantity of poison required to kill 1% of all individuals of an observed species. This value is used to mark a threshold beyond which an exposition to that poison is definitively dangerous."

The argument that a higher concentration of cyanide was needed to kill lice than humans is a canard, and now you can see how deceptive their argument is. They use two different measurement standards for humans and lice, but at 1st glance you think they are using the same standard.

- Hannover


P.S.
Nizkor.org busted / Lies on Toxicity of Diesel Exhaust
Nizkor.org busted / Lies on Toxicity of Diesel Exhaust

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 7 months ago (Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:05 am)

Drew

Read my long post again. It's his number 777 post at VNN. I had a look through it but only made replies to the first two camps he supposedly had hardcore evidence on. A lot of it came from diaries which talked about willful extermination of the Jews. Not least of which deal with entries from the Goebbels diary. Then there was that Wermacht man Wilhelm Cornides who had a diary too. Nizkor has reproduced extracts from Goebbles diaries. I of course question the authenticity of those diaries.



So all this forensic / physical evidence mulenkampm claimed he had turns out to be just entries from diaries?

LOL!


Drew

Could you or anyone else comment on those diaries?



Well, I know this isn't rodoh, but I'll answer your question with a question anyway.


How many graves can you locate / prove the existence of with a diary entry?

(Last time I looked, the reading of diary entries wasn't included on the list of modern, forensic archaeological techniques.)

Occam's Razor Drew.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 7 months ago (Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:14 pm)

Well some of them are diary entries. As I have already agreed, that's not proof for six million corpses. Second of all, Goebbels entry was taken out of context like so many other phrases from German Nazis. I was just saying that 777 is worth going through in its entirety just to see where Muehlenkamp stands and see what he can muster. He is resourceful no doubt. But evidence of six million dead Jews still doesn't seem to be forthcoming.


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