Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:41 am)

Sorry, I've no idea. The photograph is not very clear, and it shows only a small part of the person in question. So it could have been some other person than B.W. IIRC Wilder in his autobiography gives another place of staying than Buchenwald for the time concerned. Maybe he erred. But if he, indeed, had a finger in the pie at Buchenwald - why should he have hidden this? On the contrary, it would have added a leaf of laurel to his crown.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:59 am)

My point was to explain that the lampshade story was current at Buchenwald among the prisoners, that it were prisoners who told it to the U.S. investigators and to the media people that accompanied the U.S. forces, that it was not necessary for U.S. PsyOp to "invent" the story,


Whether or not the lampshade was current at Buchenwald, it is certain that in their liberation movie a lampshade was present on a table that was shown to the Weimar townsfolk.

I presume this was supposed to have been made of human skin and tends to discount Dr Neader's naive explanation that the Americans were somehow fooled by wild rumours circulating amongst prisoners.

When I have time I will have also to point out that soap is NOT produced as an accidental byproduct of skeleton preparation.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:09 pm)

@jnovitz:
(a) It seems that you did not understand what happened in these mid-April 1945 days at Buchenwald. The liberated prisoners - not U.S. agents - collected the artifacts for the exhibit on the table in the courtyard of Buchenwald, because it were they who told the stories (Did you forget that Mr. Pfaffenberger also was a liberated - this time already by the Germans - Buchenwald prisoner?). The former prisoners guarded the "parchment display" when the Weimar civilians were passing by, and they gave also some explanations. You can see this is the films. The lamp shown, BTW, was taken from camp commandant Pister's office, and it is very improbable that its shade was made from human skin.
(b) I would like very much to hear how it is possible to prevent the origin of alkali salts of fatty acids, vulgo "soap," when parts of human bodies, e.g. whole limbs, are macerated in an aqueous solution of NaOH or KOH. Exactly this was the method used by Spanner. I know well that other methods for making organ preparations do exist, but they were not used in this case.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:50 pm)

Joachim Neander wrote:

The former prisoners guarded the "parchment display" when the Weimar civilians were passing by, and they gave also some explanations.


Hi Joachim: Albert G Rosenberg, a German Jewish member of Allied Psyche Warfare gave the explanations. See Jorge Semprun's book "Literature or Life." He was an inmate there and saw it. See #5 here:

http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/na ... index.html

Also, 2 questions for you:
1) Do you think Pfaffenberger's affidavit is valid? If so how do you explain the burying Jews in manure and then stomping on the manure to suffocate them? And why no one else mentions that?
2) How do you explain the similar wording of the New York Times article, with the narrator of the Psyche Warfare film? As described in the video Buchenwald?

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:14 pm)

@CCS:
The fact that Mr. Rosenberg gave explanations to visitors does not exclude that others also did so. In the newspaper articles I have in my collection, journalists name various former prisoners as their sources of information. I hope we could agree that U.S. Psychological Warfare was involved in the lampshade matter (which I never denied), but that they did not invent the story, and that others (former prisoners, media people) spread the story independently from PsyOp.

To your questions:
(1) Already U.S. Intelligence had considerable doubts as to the veracity of Paffenberger's statements, about which they openly wrote and which is IIRC even mentioned in the Nuremberg Trial transcripts (IMT series). I use to look at such depositions from the point of view of communication theory (Watzlawick, Schulz von Thun), which discerns in a message various "aspects," and the factual is only one of them. Very interesting is e.g. what the author wants to tell to the addressee of his message, and if you read the Pfaffenberger affidavit you will easily find that he wants to curry favor with his interviewers (the "bootlicker" syndrom). With regard to the factual aspect: as usual, the deposition is a mixture of some facts and many rumors, and its validity can only be gauged within the broader context of other sources. No serious historian would build a theory upon a single document, nor would he discard the testimony of a contemporary witness from the outset. Like in a piece of ore, there can be a certain amount of "precious metal" in it.

(1') I'm not a Buchenwald expert, though I studied a lot about this camp. Even if it may hurt some readers here: during the reign of camp commandant Koch much sadistic treatment was inflicted upon the prisoners, and Jews were in the worst position. This was one of the (minor) accusations the SS prosecutor made against Koch, and when Pfister was nominated camp commandant, he gave order to stop sadistic treatment. If you read the memoirs of Hoess you will find similar complaints about the behavior of SS people from the old "Eicke school" at Auschwitz. So sadistic torture of prisoners by - some, not all - SS members (and some - not all - Kapos) was common in the camps, and horror tales about this have, at any rate, a nucleus of truth. More I cannot say at the moment.

(2) The shorts that were made in mid-April immediately after the liberation of the camps were all shot without sound. Only later on, when they were used to make a film for the newsreels or an "atrocity movie," a voice off was added.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 11 months ago (Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:56 am)

Hi Joachim, thanks.

IIRC='if I recall correctly." O.k.

What's your source of info that "U.S. Intelligence had considerable doubts as to the veracity of Paffenberger's statements,"?

If the plan was to make a film showing the Weimar residents on a forced tour and all the horror they saw (hence footage of German women breaking into a run, hands covering their face, in shock) and the idea was to show this film all over Germany, don't you think they'd have a script? And if so, don't you think it's possible they shared that script with Gene Currivan of the New York Times, which would explain the similar wording of his article and the film shown at Nuremberg?

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 11 months ago (Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:49 am)

b) I would like very much to hear how it is possible to prevent the origin of alkali salts of fatty acids, vulgo "soap," when parts of human bodies, e.g. whole limbs, are macerated in an aqueous solution of NaOH or KOH. Exactly this was the method used by Spanner. I know well that other methods for making organ preparations do exist, but they were not used in this case.


If you a drop a cake of soap in a bathtub full of hot water and let the soap dissolve you will also have "soap" as well. Just thermodynamically rather expensive to obtain.

If you want to make soap from human limbs you need to either fry/roast your limb and collect the fat the comes off, or you need to boil your body in water and skim the fat of the surface. Once you have purified fat THEN you add the alkali.

If you let your body macerate in acqueous alkali solution, you "soap" will end up all dissolved and will be impossible to purify - short of boiling all the water away.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 11 months ago (Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:33 am)

@CCS:

(1) IMT III:514: Dodd reads from Document 3420-PS:
" ... Preamble. The author of this account is PW Andreas Pfaffenberger ... PW has not been questioned on statements which, in the light of what is known, are apparently erroneous in certain details ... "

(2) I would not rule out the possibility you mention. But I feel it is speculative. One should have more than a possible coincidence in the wording before declaring it as "proof."

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 11 months ago (Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:48 am)

@jnovitz:

Excerpt from the interrogation of Prof. Spanner before the Hamburg, Germany, Criminal Police, May 13, 1947, page 4: (in German, maybe you can give a good translation into English, I do not know the special terminology)
"Beim Verlassen des Instituts sind die elektrischen Heizpatronen abgestellt, und deshalb schwimmt eine ca. 8-10 cm hohe, gelblich dicke, fettige Schicht an der Oberfläche, die hart ist und die der Schreiber des Artikels in 'Sowjet News' als Seife ansah. Ich weise nochmals besonders darauf hin, daß ja jede Mazeration mit Kalilauge bzw. Natronlauge einen Verseifungsprozeß zur besseren Auflösung des den Knochen anhaftenden Gewebes hervorruft."

The above mentioned "article in 'Sowjet News'" refers to a an article brought by this weekly (edited by the Soviet Embassy in London, UK) on July 13, 1945, about the "human soap" allegedly produced in Spanner's institute (and later presented at Nuremberg).

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:39 am)

Well quite obviously the professor was in a tight spot and was bullshiting.

Personally I can see how a layer of fat which is not miscible with water could form on the surface, i do not see how soap whose property is to be miscible with water could any circumstances form like that.

Anyway whatever the professor may or may not have seen in his tub prior to his flight, it can not be the same substance that
a. the English cleric saw in May 1945, as he and others clearly described it as perfumed. Now the english cleric was probably wilfully blind but I doubt he was liar
b. the substance that was test a few years back allegedly from the Hague, as that was claimed to show the presence of kaolin.

Dr Neander, you are an exceedingly poor historian if you accept all these testimonies completely at face value?

Did the writers of Soviet News and all those others who claimed to have seen perfumed human soap really mistake what they saw for some accidently congealed sludge possibly left in the bottom of a vat?

Come on.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:24 am)

@ jnovitz:
I feel it does not make much sense to discuss Spanner's soap further at this place. I have studied the issue for now over five years, have read hundreds of pages of documents, have been at archives in Germany, the UK, Poland and Russia, have corresponded with experts in anatomy and in chemistry (btw, I did 5 semesters of chemistry at Göttingen and Saarbrücken universities, finishing with an A (20/20) in organic and a B (14/20) in general chemistry). I see, therefore, things different, and from your last remarks I also see that you either did not study the literature in enough detail, or that you confounded matters you heard or read.

On the other hand, as in the whole Danzig Soap matter no Jews were involved (as acknowledged by leading Israeli historians), and as it had also no connection with the Nazi genocidal enterprise (as acknowledged by the supreme Polish state authority for the interpretation of history), it is also off-topic in a forum that discusses Holocaust matters, and the moderator should already have reacted accordingly.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:40 am)

I took an honours degree in biochemistry in Australia´s highest ranked university.

So I will say we are matched on the expertise.

As far as I can see from reading testimonies people accused under the German legal system were very reluctant to call the accusations lies or perhaps the interrogators would not accept such information.

The Polish Institute of National Memory claimed to have had a piece of soap they say they obtained from the Hague tested and test positive for human fat and kaolin.

If thats true Spanner`s testimony is false.

Either I dont see soap congealing sponteanously out of water as the entire raison d`etre of soap is to dissolved fats and dirt into water.

I could see fatty substances congealing out of water.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm)

This thread has gone off topic, nevertheless, there's some good info here.

Neander wrote an article that is probably the final word on the soap issue. His article puts forth that it's a legend.

"The Danzig Soap Case: Facts and Legends around 'Professor Spanner' and the Danzig Anatomic Institute, 1944-1945,"

German Studies Review 29:1(Feb. 2006), 63-86.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:38 pm)

jnovitz wrote:As far as I can see from reading testimonies people accused under the German legal system were very reluctant to call the accusations lies or perhaps the interrogators would not accept such information.

The Polish Institute of National Memory claimed to have had a piece of soap they say they obtained from the Hague tested and test positive for human fat and kaolin.

a) Spanner explicitly, in his interrogations, called the accusations "a blatant lie." His testimony was also backed by a Czech (non-communist) expert and survivor of Gestapo prisons, Dr. Havlicek, who also called the accusations "absurd." On the other hand, Spanner frankly admitted that he had used menschliche Fettseife (human fatty soap) in small quantities for impregnating preparations of joints made at his institute. He, however, did not tell how this soap was made. The "recipe" reprinted in IMT does not work, and Zygmunt Mazur's testimony as well as that of the two British POWs (all presented at Nuremberg) are contradictory and inconclusive. I showed this already in my article in German Studies Review XXIX/1, 2006.
If NaCl was added before the end of the maceration process, the soap molecules would have been driven out of the aqueous phase and would have floated atop, together with the unsaponified fats, and formed this layer, of which Spanner spoke, and which, my educated guess says, is the same as Col. Smirnov's "half-finished soap." By refining it would yield the "finished soap." I personally do not believe that "finished soap" was only used for scientific purposes (as Spanner said), and I trust the testimony of the British POWs insofar as they said that it was used for cleaning floors and section tables, but only within the institute. This makes sense.
b) Two different objects were analyzed on demand of the Polish IPN. One was a piece of Soviet prosecutor Col. Smirnov's "half-finished soap" from The Hague archives. It was secured at the Danzig institute in mid-May 1945 by the Soviets. The other one was a piece of "brown soap" given to the investigators around 2004 (+- 1 year) by a private party and allegedly found at Spanner's institute some time after the war. For neither object the chain of custody has been verified. The German scientists left Danzig at the end of January 1945. The laboratory personnel, including Zygmunt Mazur, a germanized Pole, the "Chief Soap-Maker," remained, together with all the equipment and chemicals. Only the 2nd piece analyzed contained kaolin, which, btw, is not used in soap-making for abrasive purposes (as the Polish Institute stated), but, on the contrary, e.g. in shaving soap, for making the blade glide smoothly. The "pathfinder" traces of fatty acids in the 2nd piece, btw, are not unambiguous - the fat used for making this piece of soap could have been also pig's fat, for example from kitchen waste, which was collected in wartime for making soap.

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Re: Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:30 pm)

jnovitz wrote:
Did the writers of Soviet News and all those others who claimed to have seen perfumed human soap really mistake what they saw for some accidently congealed sludge possibly left in the bottom of a vat?

Come on.


One possibility for the fat-soap accusations. Many of the poor jews (the rich ones left on their own) wore their clothes for more than one day before washing them. Combine this fact with the fact they the jews were being transported and could not carry a change of cloths nor could they wash the clothes they had on. The human body secretes oil as it sweats and this oil can build up on clothing. When the jews got to the camps their clothes were removed and cleaned in large vats with soap. The body oils would most likely float on top of the vats filled with soap-water. If some jewish worker came into the laundry and asked what the stuff was that was floating on top of the water, they might have been told "it's jewish fat," which would be true. Combine this with a jews wild imagination and you have the source for the soap from fat story.

If human fat was turned into soap than there should be a record of the amount of sodium hydroxide NaOH (or whatever they used) that was shipped to each camp. There has to be an order with the chemical companies and a shipping receipt. I don't know the chemical composition of human fat or oil, nor "soap", so I can not calculate how much NaOH is needed per gram of fat. If the amount of NaOH is know the probable amount of soap can be calculated along with any byproduct from the production. The amount of people in the camps and the amount of clothes they possessed could be used to calculate the normal amount of soap needed to clean the clothes and for personal hygiene. My guess is the jews have none of these records otherwise they would be waving the evidence around.


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