John Ball on Babi Yar

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SergeyRomanov
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John Ball on Babi Yar

Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:59 pm)

http://www.codoh.com/found/fndaerial.html

4.3. Babi Yar

It is said that after the city of Kyiv was occupied by German troops the Jews of this city were taken to Babi Yar, a ravine at the northwestern edge of the city, near the Jewish cemetery. According to eyewitness accounts, they were shot there, thrown into the ravine, and buried - according to some witness statements, the ravine was also blasted and the bodies buried under the rubble.

In late summer of 1943, when the Front retreated again, the bodies were allegedly exhumed and cremated on gigantic funeral pyres or in pits. These activities allegedly ended on September 28, 1943, when the Kyiv area was already part of the main battle zone.[14]

Illustration 3 shows the ravine of Babi Yar in an air photo taken by the Luftwaffe on September 26, 1943.[15] The part of the ravine (near the Jewish cemetery) where the massacre allegedly took place is shown as enlargement in illustration 4. What we see is in fact a placid and peaceful valley. Neither the topography nor the vegetation has been disrupted by human intervention. There are no access roads for the transport of humans or fuel, no fuel depots, no excavations, no burning sites, and no smoke.

We may conclude with certainty that no part of the Babi Yar ravine was subjected to topographical changes of any magnitude during the war years right up to the Soviet reoccupation of the area. The vegetation in this valley was also not disturbed.[16] Hence, there can have been no mass graves in these locations, and the mass cremations attested to can also not have taken place at this time.
[...]
[14] Cf. the chapter by H. Tiedemann, this volume.
[15] Ref. No. GX 3938 SG, exp. 104 and 105.
[16] This statement can be documented with further air photos showing the valley prior to the war and again after Soviet reoccupation: the vegetation in the valley has grown, but nothing else has changed (May 17, 1939: GX 988 - exp. 48, 49; April 18, 1944: GX 4793 SK - exp. 39, 40). Due to space limitations we have dispensed with showing these pictures here, and chosen one instead that shows the location during the time of the attested-to mass exhumation and mass cremation.


Image

1) Ball analyzed wrong area. I have outlined the area where most people were shot with the red circle. Therefore, Ball's allegations about vegetation are irrelevant (I see none in this part).

2) Of course, people were killed not only at this spot. They were killed and buried in many parts of the ravine, upper part too. It is logical to assume that when Aktion 1005 began in August 1943, it started within the red circle - in the place where most of the bodies lied.

The photo was taken at 26 September, 2-3 days before the escape of the prisoners. By that time they would have burned most, if not all bodies "within the red circle", therefore we shouldn't expect to find much traces there (although we might find something).

They would have been in other parts of the ravine. Yet, as we can see, most parts of it are covered by shadows. Of course, there still might be some visible traces of activity (although not necessarily). E.g. there might be smoke on the photo (I'm not an expert, so I won't make any claims about it).

So, in the end, should we find any traces of body disposal on this photo? We might find them, but if we don't, that wouldn't mean that there was nothing going on there at that time. Therefore, Ball's claims are not proven.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:18 pm)

So where are the alleged human remains? The original site, where the bodies were allegedly exhumed and cremated in "ovens made from Jewish tombstones" (cemetery in picture) far to the right of Sergey's alleged site, would be searchable to this day using a variety of techniques...infra-red, ground penetrating radar, two guys with shovels, etc. But there is no physical evidence for an alleged action that would necessarily leave vast amounts of physical evidence.

Smoke in picture? Hardly, quite a reach Sergey. Sergey also circles in red an area far away from his 'smoke'.

Curious that Ukrainian writer Michael Nikiforuk has shot down Babi Yar big time, see his work at link given below

Where are the trucks with fuel?
Where are the tracks leading to the site?
Where are the troops?
Where is real smoke & fire?
Where is the physical evidence for an alleged 34,000 Jews?

The added graphics attempt to appear authoritative; but well, they are based upon wishful thing, there is no evidence to back them up. It goes to show how weak the story really is.

read more here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=41

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Sat Nov 29, 2003 4:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:20 pm)

Hi,

About Babi Yar, I have a few questions.

-- I think it is said that 32,000 people were killed there over a two days, but Hilberg and Levin both cut that number in half. Why?

-- I seem to recall that Yahil also had a version of what happened at Babi Yar that didn't match the 32,000 either. Why?

-- I keep hearing about this Group 1005 or whatever. I am not questioning its existence but where are the documents about its formation, its structure, the areas it worked at and on what dates, and so on?

Thanks!

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:42 pm)

Hannover, you forget about the rules. This thread is not about evidence FOR Babij Jar massacre. It is about evidence AGAINST Ball's claims about photos. You can start the separate thread, if you wish.

Hardly, quite a reach Sergey. Sergey also circles in red an area far away from his 'smoke'.


If you'd read carefully, you'd notice, that not ALL killings were done in the area marked by the red circle.

Where are the trucks with fuel?


Should they be on the photo? Prove it.

Where are the tracks leading to the site?


Habe you analysed the photo and proven that there are no such tracks? Should there be such tracks?

Where are the troops?


If they're in the shadowy part, they obviously won't be seen.

Where is real smoke & fire?


I outlined the place which might or might not show smoke. Until real photo expert analyses this photo, no conclusion can be made.
And if the smoke was black, we wouldn't see it in the shadow.

Where is the physical evidence for an alleged 34,000 Jews?


Actually, there were more, but that's the topic for a separate thread.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:44 pm)

SAX, 33,000 in 2 days and over 100,000 in 2 years. But, as I said, this thread is NOT about evidence FOR Babij Jar. Start another thread, if you wish.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:54 pm)

Oh come on Sergey, this thread is all about evidence. This site is all about evidence. Why do you dodge it?

And the 'expert in photo analysis' canard is contradictory and senseless. You are not a photo expert, and you claim to see things in the picture where none exist. Anyone with eyes can see what is NOT in the photo vs. what is alleged.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 4:58 pm)

SergeyRomanov wrote:1) Ball analyzed wrong area. I have outlined the area where most people were shot with the red circle. Therefore, Ball's allegations about vegetation are irrelevant (I see none in this part).

I believe that Ball analyzed the whole area of the ravine as shown on the German Luftwaffe picture, and not only part of it. Why would he do that?

Are the Luftwaffen picture and this picture the same? (I have some trouble with the indicated link).

2) Of course, people were killed not only at this spot. They were killed and buried in many parts of the ravine, upper part too. It is logical to assume that when Aktion 1005 began in August 1943, it started within the red circle - in the place where most of the bodies lied.

The photo was taken at 26 September, 2-3 days before the escape of the prisoners. By that time they would have burned most, if not all bodies "within the red circle", therefore we shouldn't expect to find much traces there (although we might find something).
They would have been in other parts of the ravine. Yet, as we can see, most parts of it are covered by shadows. Of course, there still might be some visible traces of activity (although not necessarily). E.g. there might be smoke on the photo (I'm not an expert, so I won't make any claims about it).
So, in the end, should we find any traces of body disposal on this photo? We might find them, but if we don't, that wouldn't mean that there was nothing going on there at that time. Therefore, Ball's claims are not proven.

If the bodies were cremated on pyres, about 3000 tons of dry wood would be required, assuming that the bodies were partially decayed. The transportation of that much wood and the cremation activities should leave a lot of traces, IMO.

Also keep in mind, that the mixture of human ashes, wood ashes and the excavated earth has quite a bit more volume than the original excavated material itself and the backfill of the grave sites should be clearly visible.

If the crremation was done with fuel by pouring oil and petrol on top of the bodies after removing the top layer of earth, we should still be able to find a lot of semi-cremated and carbonized skeletons in those grave sites.

Did we?

fge

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Postby Guptalicious » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:24 pm)

In fine, the photographs do not disprove the massacre because they don't show any evidence of the massacre, but the photographs do show several areas where the evidence of the massacre could be hiding.

Works for me!

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:41 pm)

After the dam broke in 60s, Babij Jar was destroyed and all the remaining evidence is buried under meters of dirt


How very convenient. Tell me Sergey why did the Zionist not intervene as one of their sacred burial sites was destroyed. I thought they made a big noise about anyone getting near any of their (invisible) burial sites, and it is against their religion ? After all, they don't dare let any neutral investigations happen at any of the labour camps, let alone let them be destroyed. No, to the contary. rather than let them be destroyed, they seem to add to them every year, with various embellishments.


but they can go there themselves if they so wish.


Can they now ?

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:09 pm)

Ah, another incompetent "critic".

Tell me Sergey why did the Zionist not intervene as one of their sacred burial sites was destroyed.


Who would have asked them? How would they influence the dam from Israel? By telepathy, perhaps? You didn't mean Zionists in USSR, of course, because if you did, you'd be idiot. "Open" Zionists would be rotting in jails in anti-Zionist USSR.

I thought they made a big noise about anyone getting near any of their (invisible) burial sites, and it is against their religion ?


Who would have cared about some noise from Israel? Nobody would hear it :]

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:34 pm)

Who would have asked them? How would they influence the dam from Israel? By telepathy, perhaps? You didn't mean Zionists in USSR, of course, because if you did, you'd be idiot. "Open" Zionists would be rotting in jails in anti-Zionist USSR.


Like this one :


"To sum it up, Lazar Kaganovich was a Jew raised in the Jewish tradition, a yeshiva boy taught to guide himself on the basis of doing always what is best for the Jews, and this precept actually is cited explicitly several times in the book. He attended his first Communist Party meeting in 1911, when he was 18, to hear the Jewish communist Trotsky give a speech in a synagogue in Kiev; that's right: in a synagogue. He rose rapidly in the inner circle of the Communist Party, which contained many more Jews than Gentiles. His success was due primarily to his aggressiveness and his ruthlessness. In his communist activity he held back from nothing, no matter how brutal or bloody. He even killed his fellow Jews when they got in his way. He was a gangster among gangsters.

"In 1930 Kaganovich organised a special department of the Soviet secret police, with himself as the head. It was referred to as the department of "wet affairs," with "wet" meaning "bloody." That is, it handled clandestine mass executions, of the sort carried out later at Vinnitsa in Ukraine and at Katyn in Russia and at a thousand other places throughout the Soviet Union over the next two decades. Kaganovich became the commissar in charge of mass murder. Yet when the German Army invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, it was Kaganovich who was the saviour of the Jews: he arranged for the evacuation of all Jews from the frontier areas and their resettlement far to the east, where they would be safe from the Germans. Let the Ukrainians and the Russians bear the brunt of the German invasion, but protect the Jews from hardship and danger at any cost.


Who would have cared about some noise from Israel? Nobody would hear it :]


Now that my friend's, has got to be quote of the year!

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:08 pm)

I know Sergey, you purposely make comment's that divert from the main topic so as to cover your desperate situation.

"Open" Zionists are not what I said ! Stop putting words into my mouth ?

Your flogging a dead horse with Babi Yar Sergey, exactly like Katyn that your liar brigade peddled for years.


I still cannot get over this one :

Who would have cared about some noise from Israel? Nobody would hear it :]


There is nothing at Babi Yar and never has been

Listen to his squirming:

1. There's shadow over the ravine

2. Anyway, ashes were spread in nearby kitchengardens, etc

3. you'd need to dig though up to 9 metres of dirt to find anything

4. They were burned

5. Babij Jar was destroyed and all the remaining evidence is buried under metres of dirt

6. I don't see why anyone should look for anything with those radars just to appease "revisionists",

7. Should they be there on Sept. 26, when almost all work has been done

8. or that they necessarily should be visible

9. In the ravine. Ravine is covered by shadow

10. If there was smoke and it was black, we wouldn't see fire

11. Then again, maybe nothing was burned at the time

12. that not ALL killings were done in the area marked by the red circle

13. Should they be on the photo?

14. Should there be such tracks?

15. If they're in the shadowy part, they obviously won't be seen

16. And if the smoke was black, we wouldn't see it in the shadow.


Your a very desperate person Sergey! hanging on in quiet desperation.

Damn shadow's, always in the way, hey Sergey ?

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Postby wild coyote » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:35 pm)

1) Ball analyzed wrong area. I have outlined the area where most people were shot with the red circle. Therefore, Ball's allegations about vegetation are irrelevant (I see none in this part).


This is untrue, Ball discusses the very spot you circled on his website:

http://www.air-photo.com/english/babi_frame.html

click on the number 8 for his analysis.

8. Location on ravine floor where 64,000 bodies were alleged to have been exhumed and cremated 5 weeks prior to the Sept. 26, '44 air photos, had sparsely scattered vegetation and completely undisturbed soil, and there is not scarring on the ground visible in air photos from bulldozer excavations, or movements of trucks or horses, that would have been needed to transport thousands of 36 kilogram (80 pound) railway ties necessary to burn 1,600 bodies over open fires every day for 5 weeks.

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Ball's Analysis

Postby Black » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:03 pm)

Thank You Wild Coyote for your entry which sets things straight.
Zionism is not Judaism

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Ball's Point 8

Postby elvistheelf » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:32 am)

Ball's point 8 is not in the area under discussion; it is clearly outside the area that Sergey is referring to and is in the area that he describes as being erroneously analysed by Ball. A comparison of Ball's map with the topography (especially the shape of the side ravine in the "Area, enlarged", the location of the cemetery and the location of Melnik Street) clearly indicates that Sergey's location is NOT in the area covered by Ball. Therefore, Wild Coyote's assertion is incorrect.


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