the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged 'gas chambers'

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Hannover
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the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged 'gas chambers'

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:10 am)

Below, I've posted a response an associate received in a discussion about the lack of cyanide residue in the alleged gas chamber supposedly in Krema II at Auschwitz/Birkenau. I welcome comments from all.

Moran, Sailor, stop salivating. :P

The Believer said:

HCN is much more effective on warm-blooded animals, including humans, than it is on insects. The exposure period (to HCN) is much greater in delousing operations than in homicidal gassings. This means that a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people than to get rid of lice, etc. In delousing, concentrations of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) are sometimes used, and exposure time can be up to 72 hours; while 300 ppm will kill people in fifteen minutes or so.

Therefore, the HCN in the extermination chambers hardly had time to form compounds on the walls. While some claim that the gas would need a lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all over the chamber, it simply is not true; the gas chambers were not that large (those in Krematoria II and III were about 210 square meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from four openings (still visible in the ruins of the gas chambers). Since the concentration used was higher than the lethal one, death was very swift.

Furthermore, the delousing chambers are intact while the extermination chambers were blown up (a .GIF picture of the one of Krema II is available). Therefore, their walls have been exposed to the elements for the last 50 years. The ruins of the gas chamber of Krema II are covered with about 3 feet of water during certain periods of the year; HCN compounds easily dissolve in these surroundings. Nonetheless, so much gassing took place that some of the compound remained.

Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not. Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in them.


- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:15 am)

some points:

- The story alleges massive, one-after-the-other gassings. Even if the short time per alleged gassings was true as the Believers assert, that time would be multiplied by the number of gassings, thereby mandating extremely high cyanide residue....such residue does not exist. Remember, 500,000 people were allegedly gassed in Krema II alone, divide that by 2000 per gassing...and no massive residue? Forget about it.

On the 'weathered away', 'dissolved by water' silliness; the resultant compound that the massive cyanide exposure would create is virtually impervious to weather as can be seen by the outside walls of the real delousing facilities..AND there are large areas that remain in the alleged gas chamber supposedly in Krema II which are protected, not exposed to harsh weathering and there is no residue there.

- After these alleged gassing there would have been piles of bodies to be moved to prepare for the next gassing, the next, the next...on & on. There would have been no place large enough to put these bodies prior to alleged cremations (which science dictates could not have been done fast enough, meaning that 2000 bodies had to be put somewhere to accomodate the alleged next gassing, the next, the next etc.). Bodies would have continued to pile up everywhere, but there was no space large enough.
Hence the cyanide would have continued to build up to the walls, and plus, the alleged gassings could not have occurred as alleged due to the fact the gas chambers would have been filled with bodies awaiting cremation.

- The canard of quick ventilation, fast enough to avoid such a buildup, would have gassed the inhabitants in the camp outside...hence the slow 24 hour procedure for delousing.

- The Believers assert that Zyklon-B was inserted into the alleged gas chambers of Auschwitz/Birkenau via wire-mesh insertion columns, alleged example shown here:

Image (alt+p)

See mock-up here:

Image (alt+p)

There's a problem with this:

- The story alleges death by gassing of thousands of people, at one time, in large underground gas chambers at Auschwitz/Birkenau within mere minutes (very large, in spite of what the Believer alleges).

- Zyklon-B works most efficiently when heated and spread out over a large surface where air can reach it, allowing the cyanide to be released from the carrier material. This would not be the case if restrained by these alleged devices. These narrow, wire mesh contraptions would cause the Zyklon-B to be bunched together, making it a very time consuming process for the cyanide to exit the carrier material and spread to all areas of the alleged underground gas chambers at A/B.

- The wire mesh would have been damaged easily by the victims. Are there any reports about having to fix the induction device? Damage to the induction device could make withdrawing the Zyklon-B impossible, if so it would slow down the alleged gassing process since it would be impossible to air out the alleged gas chamber until it was repaired or until the outgassing was complete.

- There was no way to heat the Zyklon-B in order to speed up the outgassing of the HCN even though it was being used in rooms designed as a morgue and placed mostly underground in order to keep it cool.

- IF gassing only took 15 to 20 minutes, what was done with the Zyklon-B that had not completed outgassing after the victims were dead? Was it reused for the next batch of prisoners and more Zyklon-B added on top? Where did the Germans dispose of the used Zyklon-B, did they have some sort of dump near the alleged gas chamber? If they had a dump, has it been found and excavated?... since having a large amount of used Zyklon-B pellets plus the empty cans near the supposed gas chambers would seem to me to be important evidence. Who had the job of carrying away the used Zyklon-B and how did he protect himself from the HCN?

- Why did they allegedly use this primitive induction device when they had heated and ventilated devices that were used in the real delousing chambers that was specifically designed for use with Zyklon-B?

- Why even use Zyklon-B gas chambers when the alleged diesel exhaust gas chambers at Treblinka were alleged to be more capable, since in a years time they supposedly killed more than 800,000 people. Also at Treblinka they managed to dispose of all these bodies without the use of expensive crematories allegedly using the very special German method of burying the bodies, digging up the rotting corpses and burning them in pits....which curiously do not exist.

- No matter how the 'holocau$t' Industry attempts to slice & dice the story, it becomes readily apparent that the alleged 'gassings' were utterly impossible as alleged.

For more, see The Rudolf Report:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html

Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:47 am)

On the Believers assertion that considerable less HCN gas is required to kill a human being as compared to lice:

I have listed some urls for info. and outlined some points, parts A. & B. ...read on.


A. points:

from Germar Rudolf, master German chemist:

"the minimum amount of Zyklon B to be introduced in these rooms would have been in the order of magnitude of ten times the amount normally used for delousing procedures"
This false argument, "it takes more cyanide to kill insects than it does humans, hence low HCN residue in the alleged gas chambers" is refuted by chemist, Germar Rudolf here - http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html

- Rudolf also destroys Robert Jan Van Pelt (fraudulent Auschwitz 'expert') and the false assertions about amounts of HCN found in the laughable, alleged 'gas chambers' - http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html
- For more, see The Rudolf Report:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html

B. The argument is based on a false measurement standard, some points on that:

the false argument from Nizkor:
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leu ... aq-04.html
"But - HCN is far more effective on warm-blooded animals (including humans) than on insects, so the period of exposure to HCN is far longer for delousing clothes than that required for homicidal gassings, and a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people instead of insects.
A concentration of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) is sometimes used, with exposure times of up to 72 hours, to kill insects, but as little as 300 ppm will cause death in humans within fifteen minutes or so."


Nizkor's false argument debunked:

Two different measurement standards are being used, with the pretense there is only one measurement standard.
The measurement standard used for the HCN killing insects is the measurement for killing every single insect. In other words, if there are a thousand insects on a piece of cloth or room, the measurement is for killing every single one of those thousand insects.
With the measurement for humans, on the other hand, what's used is the measurement that can kill a single human being. This measurement is extremely low, because a small percentage of humans have a very low tolerance. In other words, if a thousand people were in a room, that concentration could kill one person out of that thousand.

The toxicological literature gives two main threshold values of poisonous substances, from Germar Rudolf:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html
"The lethal dose 100%, LD100, which gives the concentration or quantity of poison required to kill all (100%) individuals of an observed species. This value is used to make sure that all individuals are successfully killed.
The lethal dose 1%, LD1, which gives the concentration or quantity of poison required to kill 1% of all individuals of an observed species. This value is used to mark a threshold beyond which an exposition to that poison is definitively dangerous."


The argument that a higher concentration of cyanide was needed to kill lice than humans is a canard, you can see how deceptive their argument is. They use two different measurement standards for humans and lice, but at 1st glance you think they are using the same standard.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Response from the believer

Postby Braveheart » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:02 am)

Hannover,

The person whom you quoted in your first post in this thread has read your responses to him, and he posted a reply on the History Channel board:

I read the responses on the rev. forum and all I can say is I'm certainly no chemist. To dig any further would be very time consuming and my personal interests lay elsewhere. The other posters on the rev. site appear to really have most bases covered and a counter-point to every accepted fact. I'm no holocaust expert so I'll leave it alone from here. However, as a very educated person I still believe the Jewish Holocaust is a fact of history not because thats what history books say, but simply because as an educated person I am very able in an intuitive sense to distinguish what is a genuine supported fact and what is not. IMHO the people on the rev. forum are well spoken, intelligent and generally better behaved than alot of posters here, but I cannot accept the agenda of their board as anything more than the continued propagation of a hate motivated movement, regardless of how well spoken or intelligent the members are. I did find the website(s) that you have posted to be interesting, but I am not willing to accept their claims as fact.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:42 am)

Well okay, don't confuse this guy with the facts. He will still believe regardless of his or anyone's inability to counter informed Revisionists.

He claims there's an agenda of hate, how pathetic...a mere fallback as a result of his inabiity to make a convincing argument for his beloved 'holocau$t' as alleged; but ofcourse he can't show us the hate, how silly is that ?

This poor man is clinging desperately to superstitious nonsense and essentially admits it. He will die stupid I suppose. That's his problem.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Response from the believer

Postby Dane » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:44 am)

...simply because as an educated person I am very able in an intuitive sense to distinguish what is a genuine supported fact...
Isn´t it rather so that he is educated to have an "intuitive sense" to feel from which side the wind blows?

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:52 pm)

Regardless of how intelligent he is I simply cannot accept the fact, that when drawing his conclusion on the sordid matter; evidence does not seem to be a factor and is completely dismissed from the equation. This cannot be a rational man.

‘The masses will always believe in, what is seen to be strongly believed in.’

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:05 am)

It's always good to bring this topic to the fore, especially in lieu of the fact that poster 'trtsk' mentioned that no 'mainstream historians had disproved the gas chambers'.

also see:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=192

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=404

Science over superstition.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Dan Cullum » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:58 am)

I was curious. Where did the photo of the model come from?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:00 am)

see:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/cinc/2002/speakers/Countess.html

Dr. Contess constructed it according to 'eyewitness' statements and statements by so called Auschwitz expert, Robt. Jan Van Pelt. It's yet another absurdity in a mythology comprised of more absurdities than can be counted.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:31 pm)

Hannover wrote:It's always good to bring this topic to the fore, especially in lieu of the fact that poster 'trtsk' mentioned that no 'mainstream historians had disproved the gas chambers'.

also see:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=192

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=404

Science over superstition.

- Hannover


OK I'll leave the issue of my name out of it.

Which of these links provides information from mainstream historians? I can't find them.

Tom

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:59 pm)

Scroll up and see 'mainstream historian' Van Pelt taken to school.

Then ofcourse, any 'mainstream historian' who has faith in the gas chambers stories is shot down by the work cited in this thread.

I noticed that you failed to address the points made here, why is that?

- Hannover
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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:54 am)

Hannover referred me to this thread to debate the absence of cyanide residues in the gas chambers.

Well, there were some traces left, but no Prussian Blue had formed.

In some churches, Prussian Blue formed after a single treatment with hydrogen cyanide. Meeder-Wiesenfeld is not the only example. There is also Untergriesbach. The vicar tells how even the altar got a blue tinge after treatment with Zyklon B:
http://www.pfarrei-untergriesbach.de/pfarrbrief11.htm

But the exterminators need high concentrations for long times to kill the last woodworm eggs deep inside the beams. And even then, Prussian Blue does not develop normally, and not on all surfaces. The chemistry is a bit of a mystery. It is unfortunate, but Prussian Blue cannot be used to estimate exposure to hydrocyanic acid. Maybe one of the important difference is that the gas chambers were hosed down after every exposure to Zyklon B.

Hannover also referred me to another thread about lice and humans. That is a long one, and I will first read through it.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:00 am)

Maybe one of the important difference is that the gas chambers were hosed down after every exposure to Zyklon B.


I would suggest that this idea is another Laurel and Hardy attempt at explaining away just why no traces remain....What childish nonsense.

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Postby Daniel Saez Lorente » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:36 am)

Turpitz wrote:
Maybe one of the important difference is that the gas chambers were hosed down after every exposure to Zyklon B.


I suppose eventually I will get tired of repeating myself, but HCN is an acid and is neutralized by ammonia. The increased humidity caused by "hosing" (apart from failing to neutralize the acid and thus killing everybody assigned to remove the bodies) would slow the evaporation rate of the Zyklon, increase the precipitation rate, and therefore result in higher ferricferrocyanide content in the bricks and masonry. Ferricferrocyanide is not water soluble and is virtually indestructible.
I am amused to hear about the "holes in the roof", which, we are told, are "still visible" (because they were added after the war); I was unaware that the fumigation chambers had been "destroyed". It's a little bit late to dream up all these chicken-wire devices at this point.


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