Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

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Trude
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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Trude » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri May 28, 2010 10:10 am)

skeptical wrote:I think you are dancing in the jaws of the dragon when you challange Elie to show a tattoo. (...) There is no way that he doesn't read this site and understand exactly how to guide this discussion into his wallet.
S


And who are you? Someone who doesn't want it to happen ... who wants to keep the status quo?

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby skeptical » 9 years 4 months ago (Sat May 29, 2010 10:59 am)

I'm just a guy who wants to feel free to speak my mind in anywhere, anytime about anything. I want to ask questions and have free access to historical information without fear of personal or political retribution.
I would love to see Elie's true nature Writ large across the sky, reported on the six oclock news and discussed in high school classrooms but I fear, as I look over this "Elie's tattoo" concept, that, if poorly executed, it will turn into a major coup for the gas chamberists. I don't know how you would go about doing it correctly, efficiently, brilliantly so that when you are done millions of otherwise ignorant folks are suddenly blinking their eyes, pondering the unponderable, doubting Elie's story.
I think that he is a teflon don, people will not believe the words of revisionists, the evidence of revisionists once he holds his (newly) tattooed wrist into the air on national TV....
The whole thing looks too easy, there is no way that this guy hasn't considered this line of attack... even if the number is wrong or it doesn't show up in earlier pictures I think it is risky to bet the future of freedom of thought and speech on Elie's inability to dodge this question, to fake a tattoo,
Where is the disscussion of the aftermath of him simply going out and getting a tattoo from some fellow traveler, Elie's iconic status is woven into the very security of the Israeli state, he may be quietly set aside but there is no way the media will allow him to go down in flames.... If your plan is to hold up blurry pictures of Elie picnicing at Auschwitz or complicated explanations of why the number isn't "right" then your plan isn't very good .....it's about as good as accosting the guy in an elevator.
Attacking an individual seems very satisfying and the "survivors" seem to go down in flames all of the time but I thought the real issue was the taboo, the ability to speak freely, access to records.
There is something vindictive about this..... ask yourself if "vindictive" is the costume you want to wear for this party?
S

Bradley
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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Bradley » 9 years 4 months ago (Sat May 29, 2010 1:12 pm)

Again -- I'm behind the curve here. But I do mean to post today or tomorrow to at least make clear what my position is. I have talked to a couple of you and will incorporate what has passed between us. I know I should do it now, but. . . . Family, and other stuff.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 4 months ago (Sat May 29, 2010 2:39 pm)

I share skeptical's reservations. I'm scared you're setting yourselves up for a fall here. Even if you proved that Elie has no tattoo? What effect is that going to have? If you think it's likely to convince folk try reading this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=176018
And those are folk who call themselves skeptics! Who believe there is tons of documentation and blueprints of the death camps.

I urge caution.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Bradley » 9 years 4 months ago (Sat May 29, 2010 3:11 pm)

It appears to me that two issues have to be addressed up front.
One: the issue of the reward money.
If CODOH is involved the reward has to be funded and the funds in their own account. I can’t take CODOH down a road where I risk its reputation over a money issue – any money issue. I have no confidence in the project itself being able to raise any considerable amount of funding. I may well be wrong here, am willing to be shown that I am wrong, but until then . . . . In short, we may have to forget the “reward” angle. But who knows? We may not have to forget it. We’ll see what comes down the road.

Two: the project – and it is a real project as I will note below -- will need one person to be responsible for it, with the help of one, two, or more volunteers. A project manager if you will. I cannot do it myself. I do not have the time and there is no use in my pretending that I do.

There is the argument that we are so certain that the objective proof of any tattoo on EW’s arms will not, cannot, be met, that we do not have to worry about real money. Not in the sense that we will have to pay it, but from CODOH’s perspective, it must be there.
Here is an Outline for the Project that almost entirely originates with Trude. She also notes that we need a good name for this project.

1. Announcement by CODOH calling for proof of EW's story as a survivor of Auschwitz/Buchenwald by revealing the number A-7713 tattooed on his left arm, as he stated to a student in March 2010 that he still had. Source: Dayton Daily News

2. A plan ahead of time for all sympathetic websites, radio program hosts, newspapers, newsletters, blogs, etc. to pick this up immediately and play it up. Also YouTube videos by you and as many others as will do them on the "challenge." There has to be a commitment to keep it up steadily and not lose interest. And then we have to try to get some mainstream media attention -- it should be possible because it's Elie Wiesel! But here is where the "reward" would be helpful.

3. Keeping track of Wiesel's public appearances and trying to get demonstrators to show up there with signs and flyers demanding proof of Wiesel's authenticity. Much like what has been put together perhaps by Carolyn Yeager on her website: www.carolynyeager.com and on the VoR weekly radio program, http://reasonradionetwork.com/?cat=60.

4. The idea to focus on Boston University is good, but we would want to go on to campuses nation-wide. CODOH has a good number of such mailing lists.

5. Getting people like Gilad Atzmon and perhaps other public figures to write about it.

6. Take the essence out of Mattogno's essays on EW, so the document aspect to story can be easily grasped, and presented to the public.

EW is a very sophisticated guy, and he will have the moral high-ground with all media: "I will not display my body in some cheap gesture to gratify the obscene wishes of anti-Semites, and if any of you on this campus ask me to do so you will become one of them, and you will be insulting every other survivor still alive in this anti-Jewish world" (and so on).

Oddly, and I had not thought of this before, the promotion of Eric Hunt's Website might be one very practical thing to be done.

Now I see that Eric has volunteered to take this work on, but that it must be funded. It could well be a full time job for several weeks, or months, so it would only be reasonable for someone who has no private money to have to have the project funded. If anyone has a unique idea about pitching for funds for this project, I’m all ears.

So: this is an important project, it is substantial in concept, it needs a director who can handle the work load, who is accustomed to dealing with media, and because it is a “full-time” job for at least some weeks and maybe months, it probably needs funding.

It says here.

What more?

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 4 months ago (Sat May 29, 2010 10:39 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:I share skeptical's reservations. I'm scared you're setting yourselves up for a fall here. Even if you proved that Elie has no tattoo? What effect is that going to have? If you think it's likely to convince folk try reading this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=176018
And those are folk who call themselves skeptics! Who believe there is tons of documentation and blueprints of the death camps.

I urge caution.


As I read this thread from the James Randi site, I would suggest that most participants of that thread ARE convinced of Elie Wiesel's dishonesty, they simply for ethnic or political reasons do not wish to acknowledge the fact.

As a suggestion in order to counteract this unwillingness, emphasis should be made that this is an argument between two Jewish survivors (as presumably Elie Wiesel must be a survivor of some description under today's definition - just not of Auschwitz), rather than a dispute between revisionists and survivors. The claim is not survivors are liars, but one of these survivors MUST be a liar, the question is which one?

And the fact of the matter is that Carlo Mattogno contributed nothing above what Mr Gruner provided. It is his story and should be marketed as such. Arguably Mattogno's confused presentation has only distracted from the clarity of the issue. Certainly the likes of Sergey Romanov go around the internet sniggering that revisionists are getting in a tangle over Elie being spelt different from Lazar - which was never Mr Gruner's claim.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby The Warden » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 30, 2010 9:57 am)

I think the focus should be on the places that invite him to speak. The recent article http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/articl ... DHBusiness shows it's possible to create enough controversy to get the venues to cancel. Why not put the pressure on the venues to ask for the proof? Would Elie Wiesel call the same places that allowed him to speak in the past "anti-semites"? It would be self defeating to his "world tour". If enough evidence can be gathered and presented to the venues, then perhaps they would be forced to explain to Wiesel that they can't allow him to speak until the controversy is cleared up. Pressure from more than one side would have to be more effective.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 30, 2010 1:00 pm)

Kingfisher wrote: Even if you proved that Elie has no tattoo? What effect is that going to have?




It would be very important if you could prove he has no tattoo. No tattoo, no Elie Weasel. Sure you could prove the Weasel existed, but not Elie Weasel the Holocaust(R) survivor.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Bradley » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 30, 2010 1:21 pm)

I think it a good idea to focus on the venues where EW is to speak.
But there is the issue of the one person who has the interest, and the time, to do it.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby vincentferrer » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 30, 2010 6:49 pm)

Greetings one and all,

As the person who started this thread ,I am suggesting a slight modification.

Scrap the money side of it.

It will not work, and as Bradley said, nobody is gonna send money to someone they do not know. I agree. Money is nothing but a temptation, so I suggest no MONEY.

I do suggest a organized effort to call and ask if the person you are calling will help find Elie's tattoo.

Just like the hamburger commercial " Where's the beef"?, this is a campaign that asks " Where's the tattoo"?

As few as 5 volunteers could do this. but if there are more, terrific.

Regardless of what others do, I will be making my calls after American low wages day.
The very word holocaust is a pejorative to every German citizen. There was no holocaust,
just lies from the abandoned race.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 30, 2010 9:35 pm)

Two vague suggestions (as I don't think anzthing will really happen anyway, and I have nothing in terms of finance or time to contribute).

1. One would be an extension of Bradley's campus campaign where someone takes out advertising in Campus papers ($75 a go I understand) with a misleading title, such as "Win money for a Tatoo", that has a misleading URL. This URL has some of the footage of Elie Wiesel and stills etc without tattoo, a downloadable PDF of Mr Gruener's book, the scans of the relevant documents and a precis of Mr Gruener's story. This has the potential to create a fuss and media attention and a little exposure to Mr Gruener's research.

2. Eric Hunt be given support and assistence to sue Elie Wiesel for damaging his reputation by committing perjury. Eric Hunt's reputation was comprehensively trashed when he grabbed Elie Wiesel's arm saying he wanted to confront him regard his perceived dishonesty. Eric Hunt deserved and should have got his rehabilitation and justification on the witness stand when Elie Wiesel admitted he had no tattoo and was not at Auschwitz and was not A-7713. By committing perjury under oath (tautology) on the witness stand, Elie Wiesel damaged the reputation of Eric Hunt and owes him damages.
Normally, in such situation a defendent will ask for summary judgement, ie for the case to be thrown out without proceeding to a full hearing. Eric Hunt should suggest that a condition for granting such summary judgement would be presenting a photo of the tattoo, duly witnessed and notarised.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby skeptical » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 30, 2010 11:19 pm)

I think that great things can be done without "cash rewards"... It seems to me that the revisionists have their greatest success when they approach the general public directly rather than by teasing the "holocaust scholars" into coming out of their ivory tower lairs. When you engage the "scholars" they have the choice whether or not to enter the fray. I think the campus advertisements have been successful because the "scholars" are dragged out into public forums where they smugly say foolish things... The guy from Wisconsin's Journalism school sat there and cast doubt on free speech and the free press.
The best result from EW's tattoo would be him not being able to choose when he is confronted or by who.... not high stakes "Elie throws down the deniers!" media confrontations but rather a steady stream of doubt that begins to take it's toll on his credibility. Nothing that can be misconstrued as a threat of violence or even be painted as a "revisionist" enterprise just a wide ranging campaign to put the question on people's lips..."where's Elie's tattoo?"
The traditional mode of dissent in police states is graffiti....
We have a question.... (can a question be protrayed as anti-semetic?) "Where is Elie Wiesel's tattoo?" if that question were spray painted on 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 patches of concrete in 500 or 1,000 cities it may rise to 1,000,000 people's lips.
Maybe ElieWIesel'statoo.com could appear, filled with relevant data....
Maybe local news stations could be encouraged to report on a "potentially anti-semetic graffiti sighting" and when they arrive, salivating, hoping for a swastika, hoping to prove that there are still lions in the urban jungle, dreaming of a nazi fighter's pulitzer prize, then they would find nothing more than a question, an easy to answer question, a question so simple that most people have no idea why anyone would ask "Where is Elie Wiesel's tattoo?"..
Maybe simple ads should appear in college papers "where is ElieWiesel'stattoo.com"... who could object?
No big confrontation, no high stakes moment just a slow percolation of reality into the subsoil of gullibility.....
At some point I imagine he would just go out and get a tattoo...... there aren't more than 1,000 people in the world who could explain if it were the wrong number and not many more than that would care, it's only if he has no tattoo that we have a real story.
S

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:03 pm)

More Elie Weasel nonsense here: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=3094760

The background has "Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies," but it should read "Simon Wiesenthal Center for the Oppression of Holocaust Studies."

Eric Hunt is mentioned, but not by name: "Mr. Wiesel was attacked in a hotel elevator in 2007 by a 22-year-old Holocaust denier,..."

Salman Rushdie looks jewish.

Image

Eric, I have to commend you on your bravery for willing to get so close to such a disgusting figure as Elie. Did you have to fumigate yourself and your clothes with Zyclon-B afterward?

Note: there is a bug in the boards software. If i use the word "d-i-s-g-u-s-t-i-n-g" (disgusting) it puts up a smilie for "d-i-s-g-u-s-t"

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby dejesus » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:51 pm)

vincentferrer

Scrap the money side of it. It will not work



The National Association of Forensic Historians / Greg Gerdes has proven that it does work.

See for yourself:

http://www.nafcash.com/

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby HelenChicago » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:34 pm)

According to Wikipedia's discussion page for Rushdie, his family was
originally Jewish, converting to Islam somewhere along the way. Make
of that what you will. Another commenter claims he converted to Islam
Christmas 1990, then recanted several months later.


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