Help with a picture

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Mojo
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Help with a picture

Postby Mojo » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:32 pm)

Does anyone know where the attached picture is from?

Thanks in advance.
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camp.jpg

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby The Warden » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:12 pm)

Looks like the Nordhausen photo.
The RAF bombed it in 1945 and wiped out the majority of it.
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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Malle » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:47 pm)

Mojo wrote:Does anyone know where the attached picture is from?

Thanks in advance.

Like Warden says, victims from an air raid.

Image
Ill. 3: The photo reproduced in the American magazine Life of May 21, 1945, showing the "bodies of almost 3,000 slave laborers in Nordhausen".

Illustration 3 shows a similar example, which was reprinted in the May 21, 1945 issue of the American magazine Life, among others. The photo allegedly shows dead slave laborers from the concentration camp Nordhausen. In its commentary the magazine suggested that these inmates died of starvation, overwork, and beatings. In fact, however, M. Broszat and others have determined that these dead concentration camp inmates were victims of an Allied air raid.

M. Broszat, Studien zur Geschichte der Konzentrationslager, Stuttgart: Schriftenreihe der Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, No. 21, 1970, pp. 194f.; cf. U. Walendy, HT No. 34, 1988, p. 37.

Source: Do "Documentary" Photographs Prove the National Socialist Extermination of the Jews? by UDO WALENDY. It's worth reading.
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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Mojo » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:15 pm)

Thanks folks!

I was sent this image as proof of the holocaust along with the "little boy" photo and another of the skinnys from Belsen although it was purported to be from Auschwitz.

Thanks again.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Malle » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:27 pm)

About the famous "little boy".
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby PotPie » 9 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:55 pm)

Suffice it to say, if that were a picture of deaths attributed to Nazis, it would be well-known rather than so obscure that in my previous 7 years of being a revisionist, I'd never seen it before. How pathetic. How many times have the Allies pinned their massacres of civilians on Germans?

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Mojo » 9 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:44 pm)

PotPie wrote:Suffice it to say, if that were a picture of deaths attributed to Nazis, it would be well-known rather than so obscure that in my previous 7 years of being a revisionist, I'd never seen it before. How pathetic. How many times have the Allies pinned their massacres of civilians on Germans?


I'm not 7 years in yet, but I hadn't come across it before either. What threw me off was the damaged buildings, I didn't think the Allies bombed any of the camps. Now I know differently and thanks again folks.

I feel that the atrocities at Belsen were also caused by the Allies.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby PotPie » 9 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:25 am)

Mojo wrote:I'm not 7 years in yet, but I hadn't come across it before either. What threw me off was the damaged buildings, I didn't think the Allies bombed any of the camps. Now I know differently and thanks again folks.

I feel that the atrocities at Belsen were also caused by the Allies.


We'll never know how many camps were hit by the Allies, but there are photos of Allied bombs falling over Birkenau and Monowitz. Some of them are at: http://www.air-photo.com/english/bomb4.html

As far as Belsen or any other camp with shortages goes, the basic infrastructure of Germany was being bombed quite heavily along with the blockading of the country from basic goods, so extreme privation is going to be an automatic thing. In such conditions, nobody in their right mind is going to give rations that the military needs to mainain the manpower to defend the country to prisoners, sorry. That's just not realistic, and further, any country in a war would act the same way. Such behavior is not a "holocaust." There is much ado about a German military stockpile of food near Bergen-Belsen, but again, the same applies. Nobody in their right mind would give that food to prisoners, and that includes German ones in those camps.

I'll add that its a rather dirty Allied propaganda ploy that the Germans were accused of intentionally trying to exterminate by starvation when rationing tightly in such conditions, when no attention has been given to Allied blockades of basic civilian goods and allied bombing of basic civilian infrastructure such as dams and roads. Allied aircraft were even known to have strafed German civilians plowing fields and driving horse-drawn wagons.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Hektor » 9 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:10 pm)

PotPie wrote:Suffice it to say, if that were a picture of deaths attributed to Nazis, it would be well-known rather than so obscure that in my previous 7 years of being a revisionist, I'd never seen it before. How pathetic. How many times have the Allies pinned their massacres of civilians on Germans?

That picture was quite a common ingredient of Holocaust education materials 10 years ago and shown as a lucid example of "Nazi atrocities".

Guess it was Revisionist pressure that lead to it being used less.


Except on blogs I found this picture shown on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany
Image
conveniently there are no further comments next to the picture explaining what is seen. But clicking on the picture it leads to the following record there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rows_ ... n_camp.jpg

In the description there it says:
Rows of bodies of dead inmates fill the yard of Lager Nordhausen, a Gestapo concentration camp. This photo shows less than half of the bodies of the several hundred inmates who died of starvation or were shot by Gestapo men. Germany
עברית: שורות של גופות מאות אסירים בחצר מחצה הריכוז נורדהאוזן. בתמונה נראות פחות ממחצית הגופות של האסירים שמתו ברעב או ביריות אנשי הגסטפו.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:32 pm)

" I didn't think the Allies bombed any of the camps."

The Americans bombed Buchenwald killing 300 or 800 inmates. Don't remember the number. They likely killed the German communist leader in that raid Ernst Thallman (spelling?) who would have been the leader of East Germany had he not been killed.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:08 pm)

I know this photograph very well. I discussed the matter in much detail in my PhD dissertation. It is, of course, written in German, but available even thru amazon.com. As it is also in the stock of many public libraries, an interested reader can get it via interlibrary loan from his/her next public library.

To make it short (and omitting many details): The photograph shows part of the Boelcke-Kaserne at Nordhausen, Germany. It was a Luftwaffe barracks, no more used for military purposes during the end of the war (lack of planes & fuel) and situated at the southern outskirts of Nordhausen. Part of the buildings were used as a camp for forced laborers, who worked in the Nordhausen armaments industry. In some of the former hangars and garages a sub-camp of CC Mittelbau was established at the end of January 1945, when the evacuation transports from Auschwitz and Gross Rosen arrived with many, many sick prisoners, unfit for work in the "Mittelbau Project," the excavation of big underground caves west of Nordhausen, intended for the deployment of an aircraft factory and an oil refinery. The sick prisoners were left there with a minimum of food, no health care, no beds (only straw on the concrete floor), no heating. All severely sick prisoners from the main camp "Dora" and the other sub-camps of Mittelbau were also sent to sub-camp Boelcke-Kaserne. The appalling living conditions made that the death rate in this camp was extremely high.

In the afternoon of April 3, 1945 - spearheads of the 1st US Army were already not more than 30 miles away from the town - the RAF threw 1,116.7 tons of high explosive and 1.8 tons of incendiary bombs on Nordhausen. In the morning of the next day, the RAF flew a second attack, this time mostly with incendiary bombs. The historic downtown with its high density of traditional half-timbered houses was razed to the ground, and about 8,000 inhabitants fell victims to the bombing. Bombs did not fall on the industry district, nor on the railway station, nor on the nearby V-weapons factory. The bombed area formed a precise rectangle that, probably because of imprecise aiming, did not cover exactly whole downtown, but an area shifted about 100 yards southward. Therefore a row of half-timbered houses in the northern part was spared, including the Gothic Kaiserdom (Emperor's Cathedral - until the Napoleonic wars, Nordhausen was a free town, only subject to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire), whereas the Boelcke Kaserne in the southern part of the town was heavily hit, as can be seen from this and similar photographs. The prisoners were prevented at gunpoint from entering the air raid shelters on the premises. A few hours after the last air raid, the SS abandoned the Boelcke Kaserne sub-camp (the evacuation of the Mittelbau camps was beginning) and left the dead and dying inmates to their fate.

In the afternoon of April 3, 1945, there had been about 2,700 sick inmates in the camp. Already during the first bombardment, among others ca. 450 prisoners from the TB ward were killed. The total death toll among the CC prisoners due to the bombing amounts to approx. 1,400 men. When US troops - among them a Belgian medical corps - entered Nordhausen on April 11, 1945, they found about 700 living prisoners in the ruins, all of them severely emaciated. They were transferred to hospitals. 1.958 corpses were found in the ruins. That means that ca. 600 inmates had died during the week preceding the liberation of the camp.

It is not correct to assign ALL the dead to the RAF bombing. If the prisoners had been allowed to hide in air raid shelters during the air raid, if the camp authorities had cared for the ca. 600 who had survived the bombing, and if these men had not been seriously ill due to neglect and maltreatment, the overall death toll would have been significantly less.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Malle » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:29 pm)

Joachim, thanks for your interesting explanation of this photo. But it leaves more questions then answers. Do you thinks that Life’s explanation is correct? That these inmates died of “starvation, overwork, and beatings”? I can agree with you about the starvation, because many people in Germany was starving at that time, why should it be different in a concentration camp?

Next question is that the prisoners were prevented at gunpoint from entering the air raid shelters. Why? Were they overcrowded already? Or any more sinister reason?

You say SS abandoned the camp on the 4th, what took the US troops so long to enter the camp? Heavy fighting?
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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Mojo » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:37 pm)

joachim neander wrote:I know this photograph very well. I discussed the matter in much detail in my PhD dissertation. It is, of course, written in German, but available even thru amazon.com. As it is also in the stock of many public libraries, an interested reader can get it via interlibrary loan from his/her next public library.

To make it short (and omitting many details): The photograph shows part of the Boelcke-Kaserne at Nordhausen, Germany. It was a Luftwaffe barracks, no more used for military purposes during the end of the war (lack of planes & fuel) and situated at the southern outskirts of Nordhausen. Part of the buildings were used as a camp for forced laborers, who worked in the Nordhausen armaments industry. In some of the former hangars and garages a sub-camp of CC Mittelbau was established at the end of January 1945, when the evacuation transports from Auschwitz and Gross Rosen arrived with many, many sick prisoners, unfit for work in the "Mittelbau Project," the excavation of big underground caves west of Nordhausen, intended for the deployment of an aircraft factory and an oil refinery. The sick prisoners were left there with a minimum of food, no health care, no beds (only straw on the concrete floor), no heating. All severely sick prisoners from the main camp "Dora" and the other sub-camps of Mittelbau were also sent to sub-camp Boelcke-Kaserne. The appalling living conditions made that the death rate in this camp was extremely high.

In the afternoon of April 3, 1945 - spearheads of the 1st US Army were already not more than 30 miles away from the town - the RAF threw 1,116.7 tons of high explosive and 1.8 tons of incendiary bombs on Nordhausen. In the morning of the next day, the RAF flew a second attack, this time mostly with incendiary bombs. The historic downtown with its high density of traditional half-timbered houses was razed to the ground, and about 8,000 inhabitants fell victims to the bombing. Bombs did not fall on the industry district, nor on the railway station, nor on the nearby V-weapons factory. The bombed area formed a precise rectangle that, probably because of imprecise aiming, did not cover exactly whole downtown, but an area shifted about 100 yards southward. Therefore a row of half-timbered houses in the northern part was spared, including the Gothic Kaiserdom (Emperor's Cathedral - until the Napoleonic wars, Nordhausen was a free town, only subject to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire), whereas the Boelcke Kaserne in the southern part of the town was heavily hit, as can be seen from this and similar photographs. The prisoners were prevented at gunpoint from entering the air raid shelters on the premises. A few hours after the last air raid, the SS abandoned the Boelcke Kaserne sub-camp (the evacuation of the Mittelbau camps was beginning) and left the dead and dying inmates to their fate.

In the afternoon of April 3, 1945, there had been about 2,700 sick inmates in the camp. Already during the first bombardment, among others ca. 450 prisoners from the TB ward were killed. The total death toll among the CC prisoners due to the bombing amounts to approx. 1,400 men. When US troops - among them a Belgian medical corps - entered Nordhausen on April 11, 1945, they found about 700 living prisoners in the ruins, all of them severely emaciated. They were transferred to hospitals. 1.958 corpses were found in the ruins. That means that ca. 600 inmates had died during the week preceding the liberation of the camp.

It is not correct to assign ALL the dead to the RAF bombing. If the prisoners had been allowed to hide in air raid shelters during the air raid, if the camp authorities had cared for the ca. 600 who had survived the bombing, and if these men had not been seriously ill due to neglect and maltreatment, the overall death toll would have been significantly less.


That's a lot of if's. If a frog had a glass ass, he'd break it everytime he jumped. Those prisoners died at that instant due to according to what you claim, a 2 day Allied bombing campaign. Why try to editorialize or embellish it with your own opinion? Also any chance this camp had a hard time getting supplies like Belsen did?

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Kageki » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:15 pm)

Mojo wrote:
That's a lot of if's. If a frog had a glass ass, he'd break it everytime he jumped. Those prisoners died at that instant due to according to what you claim, a 2 day Allied bombing campaign. Why try to editorialize or embellish it with your own opinion? Also any chance this camp had a hard time getting supplies like Belsen did?


I have to agree here and found the concluding sentence to be wholly unnecessary if an objective presentation of facts was the goal. It clearly shows a strong bias.

What if the bombing never happened? It's pretty easy to play this game.

It may not be correct to assign all the death to the bombing, but these insinuations of deliberate death, of murder, also does not seem correct either. Isn't it at least disingenuous to leave out the bombing completely in the description of the picture? These prisoners were sick so they may have posed a risk of contamination which would be a reason to bar them entry into the shelter.

This is the description from wiki:

"This photo shows less than half of the bodies of the several hundred inmates who died of starvation or were shot by Gestapo men. "

Starvation is plausible, but were they shot by the Gestapo? Is not the bulk of the death in this picture a result of the bombing and should very much be included? What is a reasonable description for this picture?

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby gbrecht » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:13 am)

Joachim, you first say that there were many prisoners brought to Nordhausen before this all took place, then you say, dramatically, that the SS didn't allow the prisoners into the air raid shelters. How many could the air raid shelters hold? You yourself said that there was an influx of prisoners before this took place.


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