How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during WWII?

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:25 am)

Hannover wrote:
Henryk Tauber, an alleged crematorium worker is considered vital to the standard 'holocaust' story. Here are a few of his assertions:

- Tauber testified to the Soviet Commission (Nuremberg document USSR-008) of 1945 that 10,000-12,000 per day were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz-Birkenau. An utter impossibility given the crematoria at Auschwitz/Birkenau.

- Tauber stated that a body could be cremated in 7-9 minutes, an impossibility today, let alone with 1940s technology.

- Tauber testified to skimming off boiling human fat from open air cremations. Impossible, the fat would have ignited.

- Tauber testified to reservoirs filled with this human fat that flowed from the burning corpses. (same as above)

- Tauber testified that he inserted & cremated 8 bodies at once, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke . Physically impossible.

- Tauber stated:
"Ober Capo August explained to us that, according to the calculations and plans for this crematorium, 5 to 7 minutes was allowed to burn one corpse in a muffle." A lie, there were no "calculations and plans" in the records which would have reflected this.he records which would have reflected this.



What's the point of this list? You just claim that something is "impossible", "physically impossible" or is a "utter impossibility" without providing further explanation to substantiate the claim. Also note that nobody here has quoted any of these statements or in fact any statement by Tauber.

As for SS Prufer,(who was the builder of the typhus abatement ovens at Auschwitz which were heavily used during the well known huge epidemics), you avoid what he really said:

Question: How many corpses would be cremated per hour in a crematorium in Auschwitz?
Answer: In a crematorium that had five ovens and fifteen muffles, one cremated fifteen corpses in an hour.


This statement by Prüfer is actually not in contradiction to the very high cremation capacities of the crematoria in Auschwitz. It is likely true that it took one hour to cremate a single corpse in the ovens. However, by multiple cremations a much higher capacity was achieved in practice.

Also from SS Prufer:

I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain.


Prüfer was a civilian and not part of the SS staff. And here is what he actually testified during his interrogation of 19 March 1946:

"Antwort: Ich berichtete Sander, dass ich bei der Erprobung der Öfen im Krematorium des Konzentrationslagers Auschwitz zugegen gewesen und zum Schluss gelangt sei, die Krematorien könnten eine solche Anzahl von Leichen, wie dort zu verbrennen war, nicht bewältigen, da die Öfen der Krematorien zu wenig leistungsfähig waren. Dabei führte ich gegenüber Sander als Beispiel an, dass in Auschwitz in meiner Gegenwart jeweils zwei Leichname in eine Einführungsöffnung/Muffel eingeschoben wurden statt eines einzigen, und dass die Öfen des Krematoriums dann diese Belastung nicht aushielten, weil es sehr viele Leichen zu verbrennen gab. Damals sagte ich Sander auch, dass die Leichen, die ich gesehen hatte, von Menschen stammten, die man zuvor in Gaskammern ermordet hatte."

http://www.vho.org/VffG/2002/4/Pruefer.html

So first of all, Prüfer confirmed in his reply to the interrogators you quoted from that the corpses cremated in the ovens where from people who were killed in homicidal gas chambers. Since I assume you reject the existence of homicidal gas-chambers, you performed the public stunt to quote a witness statement as evidence to support your view, which you have to consider totally unreliable at the same time.

Secondly, the claim that two corpses were pushed into one opening at the same time actually fully confirms what I wrote about the cremations in the crematoria in Auschwitz, that multiple cremations were carried out.

Thirdly, it is obvious from the statement that the furnaces could not stand the strain because so many corpses had to be incinerated in total, not because of a single attempt to cremate two corpses at once in a muffle.

here was a total 52 muffles of Auschwitz, never used simultaneously.

- 38 is the most that were ever online simultaneously.

- The 6 at Auschwitz I were taken out of action as soon as the new ones at Birkenau came online. These were in turn liable to long periods of breakdowns and even idleness.


This was in fact already taken into account in my posting in this thread:

"Taken into account the down-times of the ovens (from Mattogno, The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau) this makes a theoretical cremation capacity for 1943 - 1945 of 1,466,960."



- Why use exactly the same cremation techniques as in normal concentration camps, installing coke-fired ovens, even by the thirties a crude and primitive solution? More efficient gas-fired and electrical crematoria had by this time already been used for years in many countries, including my own. For the purpose the SS should naturally have sought out the most efficient answer they were able to find.


You should elaborate in what sense those crematoria were more efficient and more importantly to show that these were actually offered by the companies delivering to the SS.


- If the extermination myth was true, the SS must from the start have had some idea of how many victims were to be gassed and burned. It's a simple matter of math, and then naturally founded on estimates made by the constructors, in this case Topf & Söhne. Why then not build the installations required. It doesn't make sense.


There are very simple reasons for why at some times the number of corpses in Birkenau exceeded the actual cremation capacity. First, the break down of ovens and crematoria. Secondly, there was a big uncertain quantity in the equation, the time and number of deportations to Auschwitz.

However, what is noteworthy is the SS planned in early 1943 to build a sixth crematorium, an open air incineration facility.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:12 am)

Mojo wrote:Hans,

Why is it in a modern cremation muffle it takes well over an hour to burn a single corpse? Today's technology uses an afterburner making it a much more efficient process than what the Germans had available. Please show me some factual evidence that 4 bodies can be consumed in one hour. Evidence, not testimony please. Evidence of open air pyres would be nice to see too.


Mojo,

as Mattogno points out, already in 1927 in German crematoria the main cremation (which is relevant here) of a single corpse could last only 40 min if done properly. He also writes that in modern crematoria the main cremation lasts only 30 to 40 min.

"Bei den am 5. Januar 1927 von Ingenieur Kessler durchgeführten Einäscherungsversuchen wurde die geringste Dauer der Hauptverbrennung in der Muffel - 40 Minuten - bei den beiden letzten Kremierungen beobachtet. In modernen Einäscherungsöfen dauert die Hauptverbrennung 30 bis 40 Minuten."

http://www.vho.org/D/gzz/13.html

Compare this with your claim that it takes well over an hour to burn a single corpse in modern cremation muffle.

Testimony is actually evidence. There is no reason to ignore testimonies. Now, there is plenty of testimonial evidence for those high cremation capacities achieved in Auschwitz. But there are also some documents. According to the Erläuterungsbericht of 30 October 1941 the three muffle furnace was claimed to cremate two corpses in 30 min:

"Infolge des großen Belages (125.000 Gefangene) wird ein Krematorium errichtet. Es enthält 5 Stück Muffelöfen mit je 3 Muffeln für 2 Mann, so daß in einer Stunde 60 Mann eingeäschert werden können."

http://www.vho.org/VffG/2000/1/Mattogno51-56.html

The same figure appears also in this well known draft of 28 June 1944:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkere ... p-orig.jpg

Thirdly, there is the note by Kurt Prüfer of 8 September 1942:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/

There is obviously a typo in the document, since it gives the same capacity for crematoria 2/3 and 4/5. The number of 800 corpses for 8 muffle oven would correspond to the previous documents, so that it is slightly more likely there is a typo with the tripple muffle ovens. But even if it is reverse, there would be still a cremation rate of two corpses per hour for the tripple muffle ovens, which is of course still much higher what revisionists assume.

For evidence of open air cremations, there are photographs shot by members of the Jewish Sonderkommando showing open air cremations right behind the crematorium 5. Secondly, open air cremation and possibly also inactive open air cremation sites can be seen on aerial photographs of the Auschwitz complex, such as here, here, here and here. Thirdly, there are documents which show that the Auschwitz SS staff was inspecting an open air incineration site at Chelmno, obviously in order to gain knowledge about how to carry out open air cremations, see here. Forthly, there is of course plenty of testimonial evidence.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Mojo » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:44 am)

Hans,

Then why does a modern day manufacturer of cremation equipment say this? False advertising? Under selling their product?

Those photos you linked are fakes and you know it.

http://www.uscremationequipment.com/ind ... &Itemid=34

NO COOL DOWN REQUIRED BETWEEN CREMATIONS

Virtually every manufacturer of standard size human cremators recommend a 20 to 30 minute cool-down between cremations to prevent overheating and visible emissions (smoke) from the stack. U.S. Cremation Equipment’s “Classic” model with its advanced operating system automatically controls the rate of combustion so that extended cool-down between consecutive cremations is not necessary. Eliminating cool-down results in faster cremation cycles, longer refractory life and can reduce fuel usage by up to 50% on the second and successive cremations of the day.

24 HOUR CONTINUOUS OPERATION

Extra-heavy duty insulation, an improved drafting system along with an operating system that monitors and controls chamber temperatures by continuously adjusting firing rate of the burners and combustion air supply enables the “Classic” to operate around the clock in emergency situations or during periods of peak demand without generating visible emissions or odor.

DESIGNED TO CREMATE OBESE CASES

The Programmable Logic Controller (PLC) automatically controls the firing rate of the cremation burner and combustion air supply to the primary chamber to maintain optimal operating temperature. This prevents an excessive combustion rate in large and obese cases that can lead to overheating, fluid problems and visible emissions. The “Classic” can accommodate cases up to 800 lbs.

CREMATE UP TO SIX BODIES IN A TEN HOUR WORK DAY

Eliminating cool-down along with faster cremation cycles allow for a greater daily throughput. The “Classic” can consistently cremate up to six average size bodies in ten hours and outperforms all other cremators in its price and size class.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:09 pm)

Mojo wrote:Hans,

Then why does a modern day manufacturer of cremation equipment say this?


You should ask the manufacturer, since I don't there cremation equipment. But you can guess that the cremation time given there does not only include the main cremation but also cremation of a coffin as well complete cremation of the residues to ash (within one cremation cycle), both were not necessary in Auschwitz, where there were no coffins and the residues of the main cremation could finish cremating in the afterburner chamber according to the operation manual. That's why I mentioned that only the main cremation process is the relevant figure.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:16 pm)

Mojo wrote:
Those photos you linked are fakes and you know it.


I confess that I didn't know these are fakes. In fact, there a very good reasons to accept them as authentic. For instance, regarding the Sonderkommando snap shots there are features in the photograph which show the photos were taken at crematorium 5, there are eyewitness accounts about how the photographs were taken, there is a report by the Auschwitz resistance accompanying the photographs, there are aerial photographs confirming the open air fires and there are of course numerous testimonies which confirm the scene we see on the photographs.

But what I know for sure is that Revisionists claim that any incriminating piece of evidence is fake. But I've never seen any convincing evidence and explanation to support most allegations. Again, regarding the Sonderkommando pictures we only get claims such as an arm of SK guy would be too long, which is quite an unfounded claim, or that a corpse would look anatomically impossible, which is a very weak argument considering the blurring of the specific corpse. If this is supposed to be proof the photos are fake, then good night to the argument.
Last edited by Hans on Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Blogbuster » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:31 pm)

Hans wrote:
Mojo wrote:
Those photos you linked are fakes and you know it.


I confess that I didn't know these are fakes. In fact, there a very good reasons to accept them as authentic. For instance, regarding the Sonderkommando snap shots there are features in the photograph which show the photos were taken at crematorium 5, there are eyewitness accounts about how the photographs were taken, there is a report by the Auschwitz resistance accompanying the photographs, there are aerial photographs confirming the open air fires and there are of course numerous testimonies which confirm the scene we see on the photographs.

But what I know for sure is that Revisionists claim that any incriminating piece of evidence is fake. But I've never seen any convincing evidence and explanation to support most allegations. Again, regarding the Sonderkommando pictures we only get claims such as an arm of SK guy would be too long, which is not true, or that a corpse would look anatomically impossible, which is a very weak argument considering the blurring of the specific corpse.



Hans,
Most people know you are in reality Mike Peters who was part of the forged/faked photos that Sergey Romanov attempted to insert into the ARC website. He even bragged about doing it, and you were his way in.
For you to say that you were "unaware" of any forged document or photo is disingenuous! There are entire threads about this on several forums and blogs..

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:39 pm)

Blogbuster wrote:
Hans,
Most people know you are in reality Mike Peters who was part of the forged/faked photos that Sergey Romanov attempted to insert into the ARC website. He even bragged about doing it, and you were his way in.
For you to say that you were "unaware" of any forged document or photo is disingenuous! There are entire threads about this on several forums and blogs..

BB


I'm not Mike Peters and please stop spamming the threads with your false assertion. Thank you!

Just for your information, I was never involved in ARC website or any skirmish around it. And I wouldn't care about that quarrel between you and Sergey Romanov - if it hadn't been so entertaining to follow.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Blogbuster » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:38 pm)

Hans wrote:
Blogbuster wrote:
Hans,
Most people know you are in reality Mike Peters who was part of the forged/faked photos that Sergey Romanov attempted to insert into the ARC website. He even bragged about doing it, and you were his way in.
For you to say that you were "unaware" of any forged document or photo is disingenuous! There are entire threads about this on several forums and blogs..

BB


I'm not Mike Peters and please stop spamming the threads with your false assertion. Thank you!

Just for your information, I was never involved in ARC website or any skirmish around it. And I wouldn't care about that quarrel between you and Sergey Romanov - if it hadn't been so entertaining to follow.



No worries Mr. Peters, I leave it to the forum to decide the truth as they see fit. Though I doubt your conning anyone here.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Mojo » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:39 pm)

Hans wrote:
Mojo wrote:Hans,

Then why does a modern day manufacturer of cremation equipment say this?


You should ask the manufacturer, since I don't there cremation equipment. But you can guess that the cremation time given there does not only include the main cremation but also cremation of a coffin as well complete cremation of the residues to ash (within one cremation cycle), both were not necessary in Auschwitz, where there were no coffins and the residues of the main cremation could finish cremating in the afterburner chamber according to the operation manual. That's why I mentioned that only the main cremation process is the relevant figure.


A wooden coffin wouldn't last more than a minute or two and provide fuel to assist burning the corpse. If you paid attention, I also mentioned that the remains are not 100% ask and there are bone frags left after the modern process. According to you and Mr. Neander, the Germans just Pittsburghed the corspes, blackened on the outside, raw in the middle.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby The Warden » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:14 am)

I've yet to see anyone explain the correlation between capacities and actual dead.
Also, "Correlation does not imply causation". None of the capacity arguments can ever prove the cause of death.

Just because they make 1,000,000 doses of antivenom for snake bites, doesn't mean 1,000,000 people were bitten by poisonous snakes.
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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Ray Barren » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:00 am)

The Warden: would you be willing to state a figure you believe was cremated at Auschwitz? You have asked Hans and Joachim Neander to provide figures but you havent commented on your own estimate to this point in time. If Hans is right that 1.500.000 people can be cremated at the camp as maximum capacity in crematoriums, plus however many in open air pyres, what is your estimate on the number actually cremated?
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hannover » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:14 pm)

Hans again tries in vain, he said:
For evidence of open air cremations, there are photographs [ http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/Ro ... verlap.jpg ] shot by members of the Jewish Sonderkommando showing open air cremations right behind the crematorium 5.
Oops.

Now see:
'typical Nizkor phoney 'holocaust' photo'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1103

In the same post he links to photos of smoke rising from Auschwitz which proves nothing. Possibilities include trash burning, occasional and very limited cremation of typhus victims when the fragile crematoriums were down for repair. Revisionist do not claim that no one was cremated at Auschwitz/Birkenau, typhus is a nasty little disease that afflicted all sides during the war.

Of course, the easily debunked doctored aerial photos of A/B are well known, Hans avoids those.
see:
'Altered WWII Aerial Photos - The 'Smoking Guns'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=506

'Altered Aerial Photos and the Shadows of Doom'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3249

Revisionist are just the messengers, the absurd and impossible 'holocaust' claims are the message.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby The Warden » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:46 am)

Ray Barren wrote:The Warden: would you be willing to state a figure you believe was cremated at Auschwitz? You have asked Hans and Joachim Neander to provide figures but you havent commented on your own estimate to this point in time. If Hans is right that 1.500.000 people can be cremated at the camp as maximum capacity in crematoriums, plus however many in open air pyres, what is your estimate on the number actually cremated?


Ray Barren, I think you're missing the entire point of this thread.
It shows how the numbers used by the Exaggerationists are completely inaccurate and can't be relied upon to determine the number of cremations. Hans is no more "right" than any other number because the capacity argument doesn't prove the cause of death or the numbers of actual cremations. Also, the basis for their numbers has been proven to be inaccurate at best, if not impossible.

Why would I post a number I believe can't be proven with the information known? More importantly, why would anyone else?
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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Pappy Yokum » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:53 am)

Let's see.
1,200,000 bodies / 21 months (March 1943 to November 1944) = 57,143 cremations per month.
57,143 cremations per month / 30.4 days per month is 1880 cremations per day.
1880 cremations per day / 36 muffles is 53 cremations per muffle per day.
That is 27 1/2 minutes per cremation.

I used 36 muffles because not all of the four crematories were operational at one time
during this period. I understand the first crematory started operation earlier, but
the bulk of the cremations took place in 1943 and 1944. In 1942, the dead were buried
in mass graves near Birkenau. These were exhumed and cremated in spring 1943.

Coke was being delivered to the Birkenau crematoria in [March - October] 1943
at an average of around 80.2 metric tons per month. That is 80,200 kilograms. [See Pressac page 224]
After 1943, the Birkenau crematoria ran on wood.
[The Soviets found cord wood stacked like corpses near the ruins of crematoria IV
and near crematoria V in January 1945.]

80,200 kilograms per month / 57,143 cremations per month = 1.4 kilograms/cremation
So, when they could get it, the Nazis were had 1.4 kilos of coke
or a little over 3 pounds of fuel to cremate a body.

Pressac states on the same page the crematoria were being supplied with about 5200 kilos of
coke per muffle per month. The works out to 171 kilos of coke per muffle per day.
If that is true, then his estimate would allow around 3.2 kilos [7 lbs] of coke per cremation
assuming 53 cremations per muffle per day.

Mattogno puts Pressac's kilos of coke per cremation also in this range.

On the other hand, in the real world, it takes around 25 to 30 kg of coke to cremate a body
according to Mattogno. Given the amount of coke delivered to the crematoria, five bodies per
muffle per day appears to be a more generous estimate, or one tenth the number most often estimated
for the number of deaths at Auschwitz.

From the air photo evidence from 1944, there is little to prove cremation on outdoor pyres at Birkenau was either
frequent or large in scope. There is one air photo taken by the British in August 1944 showing smoke
near crematory number V. Two ground photos allegedly taken by Polish Resistance the same month show
similar, limited, outdoor cremation activities. These photos, even if authentic, show a few dozen bodies
lying on the ground. This is not evidence of an extermination program given the number of deaths
registered daily at Birkenau and Auschwitz. One hundred bodies would be typical.

Beside the problem of providing a realistic cremation capacity for the facilities at Auschwitz
and Birkenau, there is the problem of the amount of fuel available to perform them. Fuel shortages
were common in Nazi-occupied Europe. Pressac published how much fuel was being provided to the crematoria
more than 20 years ago and those numbers have been ignored ever since.

It is easy to say a car can go 2400 miles per day at 100 miles per hour for 24 hours, but if it is only
provided with 10 gallons of fuel per day and can travel 24 miles per gallon of fuel, it isn't going to go
anywhere near that far.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:00 pm)

Hans wrote:
For evidence of open air cremations, there are photographs shot by members of the Jewish Sonderkommando showing open air cremations right behind the crematorium 5. Secondly, open air cremation and possibly also inactive open air cremation sites can be seen on aerial photographs of the Auschwitz complex, such as here, here, here and here. Thirdly, there are documents which show that the Auschwitz SS staff was inspecting an open air incineration site at Chelmno, obviously in order to gain knowledge about how to carry out open air cremations, see here. Forthly, there is of course plenty of testimonial evidence.




1) Ahh, blurry pictures with no proof of source.

2) Proof of burn pits does not mean proof of bodies.

3) Why would SS personal inspect a site a Chelmno? If they already build one at Chelmno, then they wouldn't need to inspect there own work to learn how to make something they already made.

4) You forgot about the testimonial evidence from people who don't agree, but those people were most likely executed.


Do you know where Auschwitz disposed of their garbage? Did Auschwitz have flush toilets and a sewage treatment plant to handle the million or more inmates?

If you look at one of the photos you posted, you will notice smoke blowing AWAY from the camp. Maybe Jews like the wind to blow the smell of garbage and human refuse into their homes, but Germans seem to think that putting garbage down wind is more appropriate.

Image

Vietnam and Iraq burn pits:
Image
Image


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