Irving: H. by guns, not gas

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astro3
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Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby astro3 » 9 years 3 months ago (Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:32 am)

Irving, 2010: Holocaust was by machine-guns, not by gas-chambers

On recent visit to Treblinka in July of 2010, historian David Irving said "There can be no doubt at all that the Nazis did murder hundreds of thousands of Jews by machine gunning them into pits all along the eastern front and in the Aktion Reinhardt camps, of which this camp, Treblinka, is one."

But he denies the gassing stories.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=13417 'David Irving set for more controversy'

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:35 am)

Interesting. I've been waiting to see what Irving's conclusions on the Reinhardt camps would be. I think at one point he was attributing even higher numbers than traditionalists to these camps. Now he talks of "hundreds of thousands".

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:17 am)

Irving had said at either his Austrian trial or the Lipstadt libel trial that he now believes that there were 6 million jews killed by the Germans. I think he said Himmler was behind it. When he came to the USA last year (2009), he had mentioned that there were 6 million jews killed. I question his actions. He might be afraid of the jews and is just regurgitating the story to protect himself and his family. Of course the 6 million dead does not explain how the jews were the only people in Europe woes population increased during WWII.

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby Kageki » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:37 am)

Irving is a reformed prisoner. He's been captured and broken.

I've noticed that even the most fervent Holocaust zealots are backing away from gas chambers these days and have instead done a bait-and-switch to other forms of "exterminations". That's probably why Irving can still get away with denying gas chambers. It's probably a new tactic because of how untenable gas chambers have become with close calls coming in court trials. They are gradually changing the Holocaust story and once it reaches critical mass then let the ball inevitably drop on gas chambers, but the Holocaust is still maintained via other methods. They won't budge on 6 million though. Irving in the meantime is a mascot.

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby Ray Barren » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:49 pm)

astro3 wrote:Irving, 2010: Holocaust was by machine-guns, not by gas-chambers

On recent visit to Treblinka in July of 2010, historian David Irving said "There can be no doubt at all that the Nazis did murder hundreds of thousands of Jews by machine gunning them into pits all along the eastern front and in the Aktion Reinhardt camps, of which this camp, Treblinka, is one."

But he denies the gassing stories.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=13417 'David Irving set for more controversy'


Astro3:
David Irving agrees that gassings did occur at several German camps, including Treblinka and Sobibor and Belzec among others. That is why he got into hot water with some of the 'revisionist' colleagues such as Paul Grubach and Jorge Graef (?) because his beliefs changed. Irving has ALWAYS believed in shootings (I have read him for decades) and even posted a speech on his website where he discussed these shootings to the IHR against a Mr. Faurisson.
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby Hektor » 9 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:58 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:...
Astro3:
David Irving agrees that gassings did occur at several German camps, including Treblinka and Sobibor and Belzec among others. That is why he got into hot water with some of the 'revisionist' colleagues such as Paul Grubach and Jorge Graef (?) because his beliefs changed. Irving has ALWAYS believed in shootings (I have read him for decades) and even posted a speech on his website where he discussed these shootings to the IHR against a Mr. Faurisson.
You probably think of Juergen Graf. But it's not about "his beliefs changing". It's about him making that kind of statements without them being grounded in real evidence.

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby David Baker » 9 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:32 pm)

For the four hundredth time. anyone can "Believe" the Holocaust, but no one has PROVEN it! You must furnish tangible forensic evidence of the gas chambers, demographic data supporting the 'Six Million' figure, autopsies of Jewish bodies which stipulate death by poison gas. Anyone who piously expresses their belief in this canard should also believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, Unicorns, Gremlins (not the AMC variety, though), and they should be having regular correspondence with Elvis (No proof exists of these fairytales, though I did see Elvis jump out of a plane once..) PLEASE, if you do believe the Holocaust, PROVIDE PROOF!

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby holographic » 9 years 2 months ago (Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:04 pm)

Well, Irving has been "cured".

British historian David Irving, currently in Poland leading a group on a tour of various World War II sites, is baffled that the world's press continue to use the toxic phrase "Holocaust denier" to describe him. "It is as offensive as being called a pedophile," he comments.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/release/

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby astro3 » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:32 am)

Recently Irving has stated http://www.fpp.co.uk/release/
that Treblinka had 'more Jews (and others) killed than at any other location'

He added:
'One controversial telegram intercepted by the British shows that
Operation Reinhardt killed 1,274,166 people in 1942 alone'

I asked that learned scholar Richard Widmann about this large figure, and he replied:
In brief this sounds like the Hoefle telegram -- which speaks of the numbers DEPORTED to the camps and not executed at the camps. It is fairly well known and has been treated in several places - including the excellent new book on Sobibor.

The 'new book' is here: https://www.codoh.com/shop/index.php?ma ... 29f5c37da5 ('Sobibor'')

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby Hannover » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:14 pm)

This has been handled with ease. Irving has been utterly demolished in his attempt to rehabilitate himself by playing 'holocaust' lite.
see:
'Grubach's Letters to David Irving on the Hoefle telegram'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4563
and
'Irving's death toll for Jews in W.W. II: 1,274,116'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5657

One of my posts from that thread:
He previously claimed that '500,000 Jews died of all causes'. He is now playing 'holocaust' lite with embarrassing & easily demolished claims, see:

'Irving attempts 'rehabilitation' via the Hoefle Telegram'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4558

'Irving's 'holocaust' lite / but what '2.4 million document'?
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4548

'David Irving regarding mass murders in "Reinhardt"'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5481

Irving is in over his head and the claim that he is the 'leading holocaust denier' is a strawman that attempts to deflect attention from the likes of Germar Rudolf

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby ps » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:21 pm)

Hm, with a machine gun takes about seven shot to kill a man. With a mass of 10 grams per shoot, it would already be worthwhile to collect 70 tons lying in the ground floors of the 1 million Jews and sell it. Add to that a similar amount for this cartridge cases.

Where was that? Majdanek, Treblinka or Sobibor?

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby The Warden » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:56 pm)

Perhaps, turncoat Irving is preparing to be the next pedestal-dwelling Wiesel. :idea:
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Irving: H. by guns, not gas

Postby HelenChicago » 9 years 2 months ago (Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:11 am)

Hannover wrote:Irving is in over his head and the claim that he is the 'leading holocaust denier' is a strawman that attempts to deflect attention from the likes of Germar Rudolf


Exactly right, Hannover. Irving is (or was) first-rate on WWII, exciting the envy and resentment of academics and court historians. But ever since he stumbled into the Big H, he's been in over his head. And the "enemies of truth," as he calls them, have been only too happy to hold him up as the best the revisionist side has to offer. Add to this Irving's bottomless need for attention, any attention at all . . . It's really frustrating.


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