IBM and the Holocaust

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Mojo » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:17 am)

Hans wrote:The point of putting the Theresienstadt Jews for six months "under quarantine" was to cover the extermination policy.



And this is documented where?

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Veritas » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:43 am)

Hektor wrote:Now let's assume that this really an authentic document and that they got it from Edwin Black. How is "homicidal gassing" the most plausible interpretation for "Sonderbehandlung"?

Well, assuming the document is authentic, it needs to be explained. And since it is listed as a type of departure next to death by natural cause, suicide and judical execution, it is a plausible explaination that fits the exterminationists hypothesis.

Hektor wrote:But I don't see how one can seriously conclude from this document that Sonderbehandlung meant "extrajudicial killing" or even "homicidal". That would already be covered by "Exekution" D4

No, the executions only cover judical killings that have been ordered by a judge, etc., while the alleged gassings clearly would have been extrajudical and more secret.

Hektor wrote:and there is no other opening covering quarantine or other exceptional departures.

Quarantine seems to be a good explanation. Didn't think about that.

Hektor wrote:So I don't think this document is a reason for Revisionists to revise their conclusions, as it apparently confirms the conclusions in place.

Well, the exterminationist can say the same: It confirms the conclusions in place...

Hektor wrote:Your claim that a search on vho.org doesn't deliver anything seems to be quite funny as well. I found something without even limiting the search to vho.org:

When you read my sentence again, you'll see that I was clearly referring to the above document. And the link you gave does not mention it either, nor does it mention IBM.

Hans wrote:I just cite the two documents where Sonderbehandlung first appears in this context

The fact remains that "special treatment" (Sonderbehandlung) means just that: a "special treatment" ("besondere Behandlung"), a treatment that is exeptional, outstanding or extraordinary. It therefore can mean almost anything depending on the context, and this is apparently also the reason why Heydrich and Heller both explicitly specify what they mean by "Sonderbehandlung". To call something which is done to millions "Sonderbehandlung" is absurd, since then it would be the regular treatment, the norm, and not a special, out of the ordinary one.

Hans wrote:The quarantine blocks were actually part of the camp, so these prisoners were not subjected to a departure. Prisoners in quarantine or prisoners not fit for work are listed as actual prisoners of the camp for instance in the labour force report, so this explanation can be ruled out.

Not quite. Bergen-Belsen for example functioned as a quarantine camp to which, amongst others, Anne Frank was brought from Auschwitz.

Hans wrote:There is not a single document where Sonderbehandlung is related to quarantine. And don't refer to the single gesondert-untergebracht-document, since "gesondert untergebracht" was just a variant of Sonderbehandlung in the sense of killing, see for instance testimony of Hans Stark at Auschwitz trial:

Well, "testimony" that was given under duress does obviously not have much credibility.
There were and are people who are very interested in that "Sonderbehandlung" means killing. And they are even more interested in it meaning killing of Jews.
Besides, you probably know very well that the exterminationists cite documents that tell us in plain text how many Jews they've executed. So the question arises: Why did they use code language on one occasion while they openly bragged about it on another?

Balsamo wrote:What is interresting is that "Sonderbehandlung" is a form of "departure" that is Not execution, NOT freedom, NOT transfer (Uberstellung), NOT natural death, NOT suicide, NOT escape...What kind of "departure" could that mean :?

It seems that the documents's authenticity should be established first. Right now it is nothing more than a scan of a typwritten document which anybody can produce. And it wouldn't be the first forgery.
After that it would be interesting to know if there is any information as to how many people were specially treated in a way that would have been encoded with F 6?

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Veritas » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:59 am)

Hans wrote:
Veritas wrote:Holocaustcontroversies also points out that this document was not mentioned in Carlo Mattogno's "Special Treatment
in Auschwitz: Origin and Meaning of a Term" and in fact neither a search on vho.org nor ihr.org brought something up, and a search in this forum brought me to this thread. My question therefore is: How do revisionists deal with this document which seems to prove that "special treatment" did in fact mean extrajudicial killing.


This can be answered very easily. The Revisionist treatment of the document will follow the following pattern:

First, they will ignore it.

Then they will claim it is a forgery.

Third, they will claim it means something entirely else (but NOT killing).

Finally, they will claim it is a forgery.

(the third and second/forth explanation can also be claimed simultaneously, so it is a forgery, but if it is not it means something entirely else)


That doesn't work with me anymore. You surely can do better...

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Hans » 8 years 11 months ago (Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:29 pm)

Veritas wrote:The fact remains that "special treatment" (Sonderbehandlung) means just that: a "special treatment" ("besondere Behandlung"), a treatment that is exeptional, outstanding or extraordinary. It therefore can mean almost anything depending on the context, and this is apparently also the reason why Heydrich and Heller both explicitly specify what they mean by "Sonderbehandlung". To call something which is done to millions "Sonderbehandlung" is absurd, since then it would be the regular treatment, the norm, and not a special, out of the ordinary one.


You have to consider the early dating of those documents. They are documenting the origins of the Sonderbehandlung expression. Heydrich is introducing the term to a wide audience as concept of killing people by legitimation from the RSHA. At the time, shortly after the invasion of Poland and in fact closely related to the new war situation, this was meant to target German people involved in "Sabotageversuche, Aufwiegelung oder Zersetzung von Heeresangehörigen oder eines größeren Personenkreises, Hamsterei in großen Mengen, aktive kommunistische oder marxistische Betätigung usw". At this early stage he is exactly clarifiying what Sonderbehandlung is meaning ("Exekution"). This is what somewhat different later on, when the term was well established in the RSHA as an euphemism for killing and could fully substitute more incriminating terms, didn't require any explanation and was of course also extended to foreigners, ethnic minorities, mentally or physically disabled people.

So more than 5 years later after Heydrich’s instruction, the inspector of the security police and SD in Düsseldorf SS-Standartenführer Albath reported to the nearby state police stations that Sonderbehandlung of foreign workers can be carried out even without requesting at the RSHA (http://www.ausstellung-zwangsarbeit.org ... 6_Pult.jpg).

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Vom Amtschef IV ist meine Anordnung, daß Sonderbehandlung bei der besonderen Lage im Wehrkreis VI auch ohne vorherige Genehmigung des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes durchgeführt werden kann, bestätigt worden.

[…]

Im übrigen kann diese stillschweigend und auch durch Erschießen erfolgen.


Note that he uses the expression Sonderbehandlung as a matter of course as he would never consider to understand anything else than killing. The reference that Sonderbehandlung “can be done by shooting” is not meant to clarify the meaning of the term and its homicidal nature but to provide this technical detail that this kind of execution method may be used (probably next to hanging). But the reference is valuable for us that it leaves no doubt about what this is about.

We may take a look on some more example, as this operation order from Gestapo chief Müller of 4 July 1942 to the Einsatzgruppen (Peter Klein, Die Einsatzgruppen in der besetzten Sowjetunion 1941/42. Die Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte des Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD, there Bundesarchiv Berlin, signature R 58/3568, page 8-9):

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Einsatzbefehl Nr. 20

Betr.: Gesamtübersicht über Sonderbehandlung von Personen

Die Einsatzgruppen und die Kommandeure der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD sowie die Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD weisen ab 1.7.1942 nach

folgender Aufteilung monatlich die Zahl der im Rahmen der sicherheitspolizeilichen Befriedungsaktionen sonderbehandelten Personen nach:

1. Partisanen
2. Kommunisten und Funktionäre
3. Juden
4. Geisteskranke
5. Sonstige reichsfeindliche Elemente

Gesamtzahl:
Bisheriger Stand:
Endgültige Gesamtzahl:


Here again, there was no explanation necessary of what kind of "special treatment" Müller is referring to, since the term has already penetrated the police and military forces and was fully interchangeable with killing.

Some more examples in the files, where the expression is used in Heydrich’s original sense like a duck takes to water,

the letter Lohse to Rosenberg 18 June 1943 (from R-135)

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The fact that Jews receive special treatment requires no further discussion. However, it appears hardly believable that this is done in the way described in the report of the General Commissioner of 1 June 1943. What is Katyn against that? Imagine only that these occurrences would become known to the other side and exploited by them! Most likely such propaganda would have no effect only because people who hear and read about it simply would not be ready to believe it.


the memo of SS-Obersturmbannführer Strauch of 20 July 1943 (NO-4317)

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Am Dienstag, den 20. Juli 1943, habe ich befehlsgemäß gegen 7.00 Uhr die beim Generalkommissar Weißruthenien beschäftigten 70 Juden in Haft genommen und der Sonderbehandlung zugeführt. [...]  Sogar die Tatsache, daß Juden, die sonderbehandelt werden sollten, ordnungsmäßig durch Fachärzte Goldplomben entfernt worden seien, sei zum Gegenstand von Unterhaltungen gemacht worden.


the memo Strauch of 2 October 1942 (NO-2262)

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Die Juden wurden dann auf LKW verladen und sonderbehandelt. Auch diese Angelegenheit kam dem Gauleiter auf unerfindliche Art zu Ohren. Er hat sich einmal darüber aufgeregt, daß es brutal sei, diese ehemaligen Frontkämpfer zu beseitigen, dass zum anderen aber die Art des Vorgehens unerhört sei.


the activity report of Einsatzgruppe B of 3 September 1941 (Hürter, Auf dem Weg zur Militäropposition, in: VffG 2004 issue 3)

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In Witebsk wurden dem E. K. 9 von der Wehrmacht bei der Durchkämmung des Zivilgefangenenlagers 397 Juden übergeben, die Sabotage verübt und Überfälle auf deutsche Truppen verursacht hatten. Bei der Sonderbehandlung war auf eigenen Wunsch der Adjutant des Generaloberst v. Strauß, Major Brotbrück, mit einem weiteren Offizier zugegen. Die Sonderbehandlung wurde in der üblichen Form durchgeführt. Major Brotbrück sprach sich über die soldatische Haltung des Kommandos anerkennend aus und äußerte, daß die von der Sicherheitspolizei geübte Praxis der Liquidierungen zweifellos eine 'humane Durchführungsart' sei.


the radio message Müller to Jäger of 18 May 1942 (Peter Klein, Die Einsatzgruppen in der besetzten Sowjetunion 1941/42. Die Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte des Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD, page 411)

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Nach Mitteilung des OKH sind beim HKP 630 in Minsk als Fachhandwerker beschäftigte Juden, trotz gegenteiliger Zusage kürzlich Sonderbehandlungen unterzogen worden, wodurch angeblich Leistungspotential dieser Stelle wesentlich beeinträchtigt wurde.


the order of SS-Sturmbannführer Christensen head of Sonderkommando 4a of 19 March 1943 (http://www.ns-archiv.de/imt/ps3001-ps32 ... 2-ps-6.php)

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Als wesentliche Punkte der harten Massnahmen nehme ich folgende heraus:

1.) Die Erschiessung der ungarischen Juden,
2.) Die Erschiessung von Agronomen,
3.) Die Erschiessung von Kindern,
4.) Die restlose Niederbrennung von Dörfern,
5.) Fluchten von SD-Häftlingen.

[...]

Die Arbeit der Aussenkommandos ist daher ab sofort umzustellen. Hierzu wird folgendes angeordnet:

1.) Sonderbehandlungen sind auf ein Mindestmass zu beschränken.


the radio message of Trühe to Rauff of 15 June 1942 (http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/imaged ... 459005.jpg)

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Beim Kommandeur der Sipo und des SD Weißruthenien trifft wöchentlich ein Judentransport ein, der einer Sonderbehandlung zu unterziehen ist. Die drei dort vorhandenen S-Wagen reichen für diesen Zweck nicht aus! Ich bitte um Zuweisung eines weiteren S-Wagens (5 Tonner). Gleichzeitig wird gebeten, für die vorhandenen drei S-Wagen (2 Diamond, 1 Saurer) noch 20 Abgasschläuche mitzusenden, da die vorhandenen bereits undicht sind.


the regulations of RSHA Amt IV of 17 July 1941 (PS-502)

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Exekutionen dürfen nicht im Lager oder in unmittelbarer Umgebung des Lagers durchgeführt werden. Befinden sich die Lager im Generalgouvernement in unmittelbarer Nähe der Grenze, so sind die Gefangenen zur Sonderbehandlung möglichst auf ehemals sowjetrussisches Gebiet zu verbringen.
        Sollten aus Gründen der Lagerdisziplin Exekutionen erforderlich sein, so hat sich dieserhalb der Leiter des EK an den Lagerkommandanten zu wenden.
        Über die durchgeführten Sonderbehandlungen haben die Kommandos Listen zu führen; sie müssen enthalten:
       
lfd. Nummer,
        Familien- und Vorname,
        Geburtszeit und -ort,
        militärischer Dienstgrad,
        Beruf,
        letzter Wohnort,
        Grund der Sonderbehandlung,
        Tag und Ort der Sonderbehandlung
        (Zettelsammlung).



the activity report of Panzergruppe 3 Abteilung Ic of 14 August 1941 (Broszat, Buchheim, Jacobsen, Krausnick, Anatomie des SS-Staates)

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Die Sonderbehandlung der politischen Kommissare durch die Gruppe führte zu einem baldigen Bekanntwerden auf der russischen Seite und Verschärfung des Widerstandswillens. Die Sonderbehandlung hätte zur Vermeidung des Bekanntwerdens erst in weit rückwärts gelegenen Lagern durchgeführt werden dürfen. Auch die meisten gefangenen Rotarmisten und Offiziere glaubten an eine solche Sonderbehandlung, die ihnen in Dienstbefehlen und auch von entflohenen Kommissaren berichtet wurde ...


the order of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht of June 1942 (Broszat, Buchheim, Jacobsen, Krausnick, Anatomie des SS-Staates)

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Sonderbehandlung wie bisher findet nicht mehr statt, es sei denn, daß es sich um Leute handelt, denen eine strafbare Handlung wie Mord, Menschenfresserei und dergleichen nachgewiesen ist ...


the decree of Heydrich of 2 June 1942 (Killian, Mühlberg: 1939 - 1948, page 111)

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Der letztgenannte Erlass sieht eine Abstandsnahme von der Sonderbehandlung nur für Politkommissare und Politruks vor. Im übrigen verbleibt es bei dem bisherigen Verfahren (Juden, Verbrecher usw.)


the radio message of Eichmann to Geheime Staatspolizei Zichenau of 17 April 1942 (http://www.justice.gov.il/mojheb/Eichman/t200.pdf)

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Geheime Staatspolizei. Staatspolizeistelle Zichenau/Schroettersburg. Nr. 1719, Berlin 17.4.42 1508.

Betrifft: Sonderbehandlung von Juden. Bezug: Bericht vom 27.3.1942. IIB2 621/42. Auf Anordnung des Reichsfuehrers SS und Chefs der deutschen Polizei ist die von dort gegen die Juden Selman Lipski, Moses Bejman, David Cymerman und Abraham Itzkowicz vorgeschlagene Sonderbehandlung durchzufuehren. RSHA IVB4 a 3205/41 I.A. gez. Eichmann - SS Obersturmbannfuehrer.


the telex Krumey to Ehlich of 22 June 1942 (http://www.justice.gov.il/mojheb/Eichman/t37_247.pdf

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Ich habe IV B 4 von der Überstellung dieser Kinder in Kenntnis gesetzt in der Annahme, daß dieselben für eine Sonderbehandlung vorgesehen sind. In der Zwischenzeit hat Rus 7 rückdeutschungsfähige Kinder herausgenommen


The report of Katzmann to Krüger of 30 June 1943 (L-18)

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Jews still caught in small numbers are given special treatment by the competent detachments of Police and Gendarmerie.


the draft of a letter from the foreign office to chief OKW of 20 June 1944 (http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/11/NMT11-T0175.htm)

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In spite of the obvious objections founded on international law and foreign politics, the Foreign Office is basically in agreement with the proposed measures. In the examination of the individual cases a distinction must be made between the cases of lynching and the cases of special treatment by the Security Service.


the radio message of chief of police in Kiev of 17 January 1943 (http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/PoliceDecodes.html)

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So far 853 screened and 614 special-treated


the radio message of chief of police in Kiev of ?? February 1943 (http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/PoliceDecodes.html)

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(a) enemy dead eighty-two, (b) suspects and special-treated 1,124.


the report of BdS Slowakei of 9 December 1944 (http://www.justice.gov.il/mojheb/Eichman/t1130.pdf)

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Festgenommen wurden bisher insgesamt: 1?9?? davon
Juden 9.653
Banden 3.409
Überläufer 2.166
Widerständler 714
Zigeuner 172
Sonstige 546

Sonderbehandelt 2.257


the memo of the Gestapo Düsseldorf of 30 June 1944 (NO-4634)

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In amending my directive of 20 June 1944, I request that those persons subjected to special treatment be sent to a crematorium to be cremated if possible. In order to maintain secrecy, foreign workers belonging to the same ethnic groups are not to be recruited for making the necessary preparations in the case of execution by shooting.


So the bottom line is that Sonderbehandlung was a well spread and well known euphemism for extrajudicial killings in the German police and military forces during the war.

There is always an exception from the rule and of course it is possible that the term was used in an innocent meaning in some cases. However, given the drastic implications and consequences of carrying out Sonderbehandlung in the sense as approved by the chiefs of the police and security forces, there must have been very careful use of it and well explained in those cases to avoid deadly misunderstandings.

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby TreeHuggingHippie » 8 years 11 months ago (Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:05 pm)

J William wrote:I came upon the article below on the JTA-Global Jewish News site. My question to the board is: Does anyone have any information on the allegation that IBM punch machines had a code (6) for persons gassed in concentration camps? It sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.
In the concentration camps, IBM’s code for Jews was 8 and its code for Gypsies was 12. General executions were IBM-coded as 4, death by gas chamber as 6. The Nazis used these IBM codes to manage and track their prisoners efficiently.

So on the one hand we're told gassees were never registered, and the gassings were so secret they didn't even mention them in top secret encrypted radio transmissions (regular deaths were mentioned).
But on the other hand we're asked to believe every prisoner killed by gas was entered under the code "Sonderbehandlung". I find it strange that around 70,000 Sterbebücher records were preserved, but not a single one of the alleged 1+ million gassing records survived.

As for the word Sonderbehandlung itself, Hans' quotes above show Sonderbehandlung could mean execution. Being that the word was also used for things other than executions, I would say all that shows is that Sonderbehandlung had a variety of meanings.

Edit: Change Bismarx to Hans

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Hans » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:00 pm)

So on the one hand we're told gassees were never registered, and the gassings were so secret they didn't even mention them in top secret encrypted radio transmissions (regular deaths were mentioned).
But on the other hand we're asked to believe every prisoner killed by gas was entered under the code "Sonderbehandlung". I find it strange that around 70,000 Sterbebücher records were preserved, but not a single one of the alleged 1+ million gassing records survived.


You should not rely on Black's newspaper article, it is not too scientific and he doesn't seem too familiar with the meaning of Sonderbehandlung within the SS authorities. Sonderbehandlung were extrajudicial killings and the use of the actual killing method is dependent on the context. At the concentration camps the killing methods included in general hanging, shooting, injection and gassing, but the camps itself could have different focuses. For instance, in Buchenwald there was a focus on shooting in the neck.

The code SB was actually used in Auschwitz in prisoner strength report to indicate the number of killed prisoners per day. A number of those reports have survived from the female camp section BIIe in Birkenau. Those entries look like this:

120890368_67b2f62b5a_o.jpg
120890368_67b2f62b5a_o.jpg (11.23 KiB) Viewed 4607 times


A discussion and interpretation of those reports can be found here.

This decoding key for concentration camp card index files is only related to prisoners which were registered in the camps (as those registered female prisoners sent to SB according to the strength reports), but not to those people who were brought to the camps for being killing at the spot. The latter were not registered in the books of the camp administration and therefore they don't appear in the death records of the registered prisoners.

The individual killings of those who were immediately sent to the extermination sites after arrival were not noted in the register of the camp administration, however the overall data of number of killed people per transport (an anonymous mass) was recorded and sent to Berlin (RSHA, and apparently also WVHA in some cases). This procedure is recalled by several informed people for Auschwitz. As far as these documents are concerned, the Auschwitz commandant Höss described that at the orders of Himmler those records have been destroyed both in Auschwitz and in the RSHA. However, from the WVHA a small number of reports from Auschwitz reporting the killing of Jews selected as not fit for labour in standard euphemism (sonderbehandelt, der SB zugeführt) as well as its later variant (gesondert untergebracht) have survived.


As for the word Sonderbehandlung itself, Hans' quotes above show Sonderbehandlung could mean execution. Being that the word was also used for things other than executions, I would say all that shows is that Sonderbehandlung had a variety of meanings.



Then you missed the main point of the posting. I did not only showed examples that Sonderbehandlung could mean execution, but that the term was the preferred euphemism for killing in the German state police and security service. Therefore it follows especially when taking into account the drastic implications and consequences of this euphemism, that it was rarely used for anything else (except for the famous exception of the rule) and if it was then the non-homicidal nature should have been made clear.

Also the euphemism Sonderbehandlung diffused from the RSHA to other authorities, but may have been diluted and less strict than where it originated.

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Hans » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:34 pm)

TreeHuggingHippie wrote:So I am guessing your theory is that Hitler or Himmler had prisoners executed with no due process.


Theory? It is written in the documents. In his order Heydrich explicitly demands the Gestapo to work as quickly as possible in severe cases in order to prevent an investigating judge getting hold of the person.

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Hannover » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:00 pm)

I notice Hans has not produced original German documents, only supposed 'translations' and modern unverified German text, but no authentic docs. to support his position.

More on the demolished 'sonderbehandlung' canard, from some of my previous posts:

Odd that 'sonderbehandlung' can only mean 'extermination' according to the Believers, it could more properly be asssigned a positive meaning...to be given special medical treatment, sent to another location, resettled elsewhere.

And as usual, the methods as to how these Jews were supposedly murdered are scientifically impossible. And there are no mass graves and human remains as claimed. It's another 'How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' argument.

On this alleged 'code word', we see here that former SS officer-statistician, Richard Korherr, refutes the fraudulent assertion of 'extermination' that is commonly assigned to his report.
Hannover wrote:Not only is there no physical evidence...pits which cannot be obliterated, no techically possible 'gas chambers' as alleged, but the so called 'eyewitnesses' have been shown to be liars, every single one. There are no documents that corroborate the allegations. Take note that Witte's silly 'document' has been utterly undressed, as was posted:
http://www.vho.org/tr/2002/4/tr12razor.html

Naturally the duplicitous article initially cited doesn't even show the real document, and for good reason.

No, Revisionists do not have anything to 'prove', we've shot down all the assertions without fail and the Believers are at a loss (short of lying, which is the norm for them) to produce evidence for their lies. The onus is upon the accusers to support their accusations; they have not, they cannot.

As for Korherr, he himself refutes the absurd assertions about his statistics.

Korherr letter to Der Spiegel, n.28, 7/1977, p72-74:

The well-known, racially persecuted writer H.G. Adler, previously resident in Prague, now in London, wrote in the foreword to the second edition to his extraordinary book Theresienstadt 1941-1945 in 1960:
"It has definitely been determined that the designation of Dr. Korherr as SS-statistician...is not true, because he never belonged to the SS and has been rehabilitated insofar as his behaviour in the National Socialist years is concerned."

Unfortunately, Der Spiegel is publishing the claim of the English historian Irving that in the spring of 1942, at Himmler's order, I calculated the number of Jewish victims. In fact, these figures along with the text were delivered to me in completed form by the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA) with the order that not one word or figure was to be changed.

The statement that I had claimed in this regard that more than a million Jews had died as a result of special treatment in the camps in German-occupied Poland and in the Warthegau is also incorrect. I have to protest against the word "died" in this context.

It was precisely the term "special treatment" (sonderbehandlung) that motivated me to inquire of the RSHA by telephone what this term meant. I received the answer that it referred to Jews who would be settled in the District of Lublin.
Dr. Richard Korherr
Braunschweig


Nr. 28, July 1977, p. 72-74, Der SPIEGEL, an article commenting on the controversy surrounding David Irving's book "Hitler's War" under the title : HITLER -- Kecke Revision.
Korherr's letter appears among a series of reactions ("Hitler gegen Irving") by people like Robert M. W. Kempner or the historians John Toland and Hans-Heinrich Wilhelm An English translation of the letter was presented during Udo Walendy's testimony at the Zündel trial 1988.

- Hannover

Here are examples of 'sonder_______' which demonstrate it's non-extermination meaning:

Kaltenbrunner at Nuremberg:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/04-12-46.htm

Hindenburg letter of 1933:
http://www.cwporter.com/HINDENBURG.htm

at the Cologne-Bonn airport, 2001:
http://www.cwporter.com/scbonnairport.htm

http://www.cwporter.com/specialaction.htm

and for even more, an excerpt from:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2275
Now we are told that S.B. stands for ‘Sonderbehandlung’ and means ‘extermination with gas’ and that at that date in Birkenau 1229 female inmates were gassed.

This is a mis-interpretation. The abbreviation S.B. stands for ‘SchonBlock’, in Engl.: recuperation or resting barracks. These women were not gassed. They were unable to work and therefore placed into the recuperation block.

There are several documentations that these recuperation blocks or barracks existed in Auschwitz. Please refer also to van Pelt's book: Auschwitz 1270 to Present, Plate 19: Häftlings Lazarett und Quarantäne Abteilung. They had a huge hospitalization and quarantine area which were started in 1943. The defense brought this up during the Frankfurt/Auschwitz trial, but the prosecution objected: Not permissible as evidence.

And the the following (from M.Weber):

Many Jewish inmates unable to work.
For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to death were temporarily kept alive.

But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work.
(See: Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document No. 128, in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264) [ I have the book. It checks out.]

This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." (See: NMT document NO-021 in NMT IV)

These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz extermination story.

The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other camps. That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high death rate there.2


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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Hannover » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:20 pm)

You gotta love it. First Jewish Supremacists say 'it's the most documented event in history', or 'the Germans openly talked about it', etc. But then they say the Germans tried to hide their alleged secretive actions by speaking in codewords like 'sonderbehandlung'. Laughable.

The so called 'holocaust', falling apart faster than a cheap suit.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby TreeHuggingHippie » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:20 pm)

Hans wrote:
TreeHuggingHippie wrote:So I am guessing your theory is that Hitler or Himmler had prisoners executed with no due process.


Theory? It is written in the documents. In his order Heydrich explicitly demands the Gestapo to work as quickly as possible in severe cases in order to prevent an investigating judge getting hold of the person.

No, I meant your theory for the nature of the killings that were recorded under the departure code "Sonderbehandlung".

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby TreeHuggingHippie » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:29 pm)

Hans wrote:As far as these documents are concerned, the Auschwitz commandant Höss described that at the orders of Himmler those records have been destroyed both in Auschwitz and in the RSHA.

Did Höss make that statement before or after he was tortured by the British?
Hans wrote:However, from the WVHA a small number of reports from Auschwitz reporting the killing of Jews selected as not fit for labour in standard euphemism (sonderbehandelt, der SB zugeführt) as well as its later variant (gesondert untergebracht) have survived.

Is it possible to see those documents? And is the number of killings per day or per month consistent with the alleged gassing of 1+ million people at Auschwitz?
Hans wrote:Then you missed the main point of the posting. I did not only showed examples that Sonderbehandlung could mean execution, but that the term was the preferred euphemism for killing in the German state police and security service.

I'm not sure that follows because you would have to consider all documents where executions are mentioned, whether in plain German or under the term Sonderbehandlung.
Hans wrote:Therefore it follows especially when taking into account the drastic implications and consequences of this euphemism, that it was rarely used for anything else (except for the famous exception of the rule)

How many "exceptions" would be enough for you not to call it an exception?

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Hannover » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:43 pm)

Hans was asked:
Is it possible to see those documents?

Nope, you will not see original documents that support the 'extermination' scam. Much like the fact that Hans cannot show us a single 'holocaust' mass grave as alleged, not one. Hans cannot explain to us how those absurd and impossible 'gas chambers' worked. Yet he wants to debate sonderbehandlung. It all seems so terribly desperate on his part.
This is too easy.

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby The Warden » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:07 pm)

Hannover wrote:at the Cologne-Bonn airport, 2001:
http://www.cwporter.com/scbonnairport.htm

- Hannover


Presumably this means that your luggage will be vaporized in a gas or steam chamber, disappear without a trace, and then reappear in Israel or New York under a different name tag some months or years later.

CARLOS W. PORTER
MARCH 20, 2001

Nice addition. :mrgreen:
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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:47 pm)

The Warden wrote:
Hannover wrote:at the Cologne-Bonn airport, 2001:
http://www.cwporter.com/scbonnairport.htm

- Hannover


Presumably this means that your luggage will be vaporized in a gas or steam chamber, disappear without a trace, and then reappear in Israel or New York under a different name tag some months or years later.

CARLOS W. PORTER
MARCH 20, 2001

Nice addition. :mrgreen:


Funny :mrgreen:

You forgot to add that the luggage will claim it witnessed its little brother, the shaving bag, get incinerated in an oven, and then demand war reparations. The puppet government of Germany will pay out huge sums of money, so a suitcase will not call them a holocau$t (R) denier. Steven Spielberg will make a movie about how jewish suitcases were thrown onto conveyor belts only to disappear into a dark hole and never be seen again. Hanity, Limbaugh, Savage, and Levin will howl endlessly on AM radio about the luggage holocau$t(R) and how we need to send more money and weapons to Israel to prevent another luggage holoca$t from ever happening again. I think Iran is planning a similar suitcase holocau$t, and needs to be stopped.


My understanding is that IBM sold Germany basic adding machines, and not typewriters. They didn't want Germany to use the machines to calculate ballistics or other calculations useful to the military. I was told by an old Swiss guy who worked in a Swiss typewriter factory that Switzerland sold Germany typewriters, but Germany had to sign an agreement that they could not be used for war purposes. Counting does not mean killing. The US conducts a census every 10 years which also tracks people by ethnicity and income.

Just because you find a knife in Germany, doesn't mean it was used to kill jews.

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Re: IBM and the Holocaust

Postby Hektor » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:36 am)

As for the word Sonderbehandlung itself, Hans' quotes above show Sonderbehandlung could mean execution. Being that the word was also used for things other than executions, I would say all that shows is that Sonderbehandlung had a variety of meanings.

As far as I can see that's a thesis one can go with.
Hans wrote:Then you missed the main point of the posting. I did not only showed examples that Sonderbehandlung could mean execution, but that the term was the preferred euphemism for killing in the German state police and security service.
No you didn't show that. What you did was quote-mine literature for the term, where it could imply execution (and for the sake of argument we leave aside the question of authenticity here). That doesn't mean that it was the "preferred euphemism", which in itself is odd, because why should the use of euphemisms be prefered for internal communication anyway.
Hans wrote:Therefore it follows especially when taking into account the drastic implications and consequences of this euphemism, that it was rarely used for anything else (except for the famous exception of the rule) and if it was then the non-homicidal nature should have been made clear.
Also the euphemism Sonderbehandlung diffused from the RSHA to other authorities, but may have been diluted and less strict than where it originated.

That is simply not true. Carlo Mattogno does prove you wrong with "Sonderbehandlung in Auschwitz". And unless I've overlooked it, you haven't shown that "Sonderbehandlung" was ever used for something meaning homicidal gassing or even killing in Auschwitz.

Needless to say that it hasn't been shown that S.B. on documents did mean execution either. Your own cited documents mention "EXEKUTION" separately from SB as different categories. To insinuate that they made a distinction between "legal Executions" and "extra-legal" ones and covered the later with the term SB is simply absurd, As they would have seen any executions as legal (with due authority) and not view this in the light of later commentators, who may make such a distinction.


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